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Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 1:09:18 AM

Yakstock

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Sorry if this has come up - I am new to this forum and could not see it anywhere. It appears that if you group all the units you are giving a "move" order to and then after issueing the order you go one by one and move the waypoints, you are able to greatly reduce the number of orders you give. Shouldn't the waypoints be limited in how far they can be adjusted. I could see them being tweaked to alter paths for a common attack, but being able to literally move them all over seems to defeat the limited staff option. Am I missing something (I admit to being very very new to the game).

Post #: 1

RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 1:53:39 AM

TheHellPatrol

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The limited staff option limits the amount of orders you can give for added realism. IIRC altering already plotted waypoints just adds to "radio traffic" thus greatly enhancing the chances your HQ gets pounded. You cannot give each unit in the group a separate order, just alter the existing waypoints, so it's still within the realm of the design as you need to be careful with your descisions while also exposing your HQ. Note: you "could" move single units in that group but it would cost towards your limit. If you can literally move every units waypoint and not have your limit changed (using the limited staff rule) then it could be a glitch

.

< Message edited by TheHellPatrol -- 3/25/2005 2:00:49 AM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 2:13:22 AM

Yakstock

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If I do as I discussed above the number of orers is just "one" - I don't know the impact on traffic. I can see giving a group an order to attack and tweaking the waypoints slightly, but in my opinion the waypoints should have a maximum distance they can be moved (such as two or at most three blocks). Beyond this to me is not the "same order" as it is supposed to be simulating.

This can also be used on artillery with all "barrages" grouped together on one order and then the waypoints moved to different targets all over the place. Again, limited movement of the waypoints would be ok, but large distances seems to be bypassing the limited staff objective.

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RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 3:03:06 AM

TheHellPatrol

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Hmmm...maybe one of the devs can enlighten us. I agree, it sounds like "too much".

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A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
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RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 4:05:32 AM

AlvinS

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I agree that it seems too much. Until you reach the last waypoint you can adjust it without incurring a penalty against number of orders given. I also thought that when limted Staff rule was selected and EW set to High, that the most orders you could give a NATO Brigade was 8. (Page 57 of Manual) In 2 PBEM games that I have set up, we are allowed 12 orders. Is this correct.

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AlvinS

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RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 10:56:19 AM

oddware

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I've noticed that when I do that (group order and waypoints tweaking) my units tend to "freeze". They don't move for up to five turns in some cases ! It's like if the UI doesn't tell you you've given too many orders, but the game logic knows it and delays their execution...

I don't know if anyone else noticed this...

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RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 1:06:43 PM

Yakstock

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I had not noticed. My suggestion on this is that when limited staff rule applies, the waypoints could only be moved one block in any direction when dragging and dropping. This would be for movement or for artillery placement.

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RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 3:15:48 PM

hank

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Imho, for the initial or first order to a unit, the distance you set the waypoints should be irrelevant. It counts as one order, distance at which you set the waypoints should not be limited. For example, if a commander gives an order to three companies to move to a location 50 km, 10 km or 100 km away to a map location that's just one order; then the units move out to that point on the battlefield. You can turn on or off their call back to HQ when they arrive at that destination (a factor adding to radio traffic).

I do agree that the subsequent move after you initially set the waypoints, if the waypoints are moved that should go against your limitation of orders because you have to call up the unit (in the real world) and change their order. That's a strike against your limited orders plus its radio traffic.

again, just MHO

hank

(in reply to Yakstock)

Post #: 8

RE: Limited Staff - 3/25/2005 10:28:40 PM

Yakstock

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I can understand the need to allow some flexibility to the initial move, but the way it is now I could take every unit across the whole map, group them, order an attack, plot three waypoints, and then individually move the waypoints to any location on the map. This imho is not just one order - it should be multiple orders - that is why I am looking for some level of restriction. perhaps so long as the group was all under one organic HQ there would be more flexibility, but if multiple HQ's are involved it would be multiple orders..

(in reply to hank)

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RE: Limited Staff - 3/26/2005 2:25:08 AM

IronManBeta

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Interesting discussion here. When there is time an American commander will issue something that looks like a standard '5 paragraph order'. The difference in length for this order between one where all the units use the same waypoints and one where they have different waypoints is effectively negligable at this scale. Of course if there was a big hurry then the order would be cut to it's bare essentials and the extra waypoints would loom a little larger. All in all though, there is only a very modest difference here. The playtesters squawked when I dinged them for orders points to make such minor amendments and I think they were correct.

Note that you are not mixing different kinds (movement, barrage, assault, rest and refit) of orders in this discussion. Combinations of orders don't scale this same way so it really would take an additional orders point to make these different things happen. That is what happens in the game.

"Freezing units" - yes we spotted that and I believe it is fully resolved in 1.02. Notify me though if you see it again. There is an extra time lag if you give new orders ("order, counter order, disorder...") but it is not supposed to run to multiple turns!

"Yakstock's exploit" - very creative! Yes, we intended to allow that sort of thing - if you have the imagination and energy to come up with that then why should we punish you for thinking outside the box? It sounds a little gamey but does not offend against the rules as long as they are *all* movement, or route march, or assault, or barrage or whatever.

NATO Bde Orders Allowance - 8 or 12? The answer in the manual is correct (12 Low EW, 8 High EW) but somewhere along the line the scenario setting for the EW levels was not being enforced and the default for the basic game (Low) was being used instead. This has been fixed in v 1.01. If you are still experiencing it or it is something different from what I visualize then please let me know and I'll take care of it.

Cheers all, Rob.

(in reply to Yakstock)

Post #: 10

RE: Limited Staff - 3/26/2005 4:03:08 AM

Yakstock

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Bear with the newbie a bit as I push back a hair....

My fundamental issue is that I do not feel constrained by the "limited Staff" with it the way it is now. I like being constrained - I like having to decide what is important and what will have to wait. It is a good concept but it is not doing it as it stands now. I imagine the limit has not only to do with the number of orders, but also the complexity. Given this it seems there has to be a way to get a ding when too many units are grouped or maybe when units from different HQ's are grouped, or units that are too far apart are grouped ....something that provides something more limiting.

I recognize the need not to create anything too limiting or confusing, but I would like to have "limited staff" actually limit me. As to the gameyness I totally agree and always like to try and eliminate opportunities like this from such a good game.

(in reply to IronManBeta)

Post #: 11