Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Age of Muskets] >> Horse and Musket: Volume I, Frederick the Great >> RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 6/15/2005 12:41:08 AM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
Ah, there might be a language thing regarding that quote. By "throwing," does that mean that the horses actually impaled themselves upon the bayonets? I don't believe that they did. Horses are very smart. (I know because I once had the privilege of owning one.) There are quite a few stories of where horses wouldn't even step onto a body (dead or alive) while on the ground.

My take of that quote is that the Zastrow Cuirassiers went after the Russian masses after they did what they did at the Raevsky Redoubt. It is a stretch to say that they impaled themselves upon the Russian bayonets.

_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to Iñaki Harrizabalagatar)
Post #: 31
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 6/15/2005 8:18:12 AM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 825
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline
I am not advocating that they "impaled themselves" only that they did charge home. Realities of combat would be very variable, some horses would refuse, some Russian soldiers would panick, or just shy of thrusting their bayonets in a collision with a powerful horse fast moving against him (that is many times overlooked in this kind of discussions, the phisical impact on the foot soldier would be massive). What I am saying is that phisical contact was made many times, and it was regarded as a normal feature of battle, the same with infantry charges (that many advocate also were just a matter of one side breaking before contact) Instructions and Regulations for cavalry taught methods to attack infantry squares (attacks to be made simultaneously against a face and at least one corner, and in waves 150 yards apart to allow the first wave to retreat without disoredering those following. They were expected to close with infantry, but also not to be engaged, but to quicly retreat after first impact. In earlier periods, when cavalry fought with sword and pistol, instructions regularly emphasize that pistols be shot into the teeth of the enemy, not earlier, so they were also expected to close with enemy cavalry moving in opposite direction and in close ranks, boot with boot, phisical contact was unavoidable. In fact, battle chargers were a dangerby themselves, they fought each other in battle (even with those om their own side, beingdifficult many times to control) and they bite or trampled infantry. I remember for instance Steven Runciman quoting the fear they inspire on unarmoured turkish infantry, as a bite in the chest could easily rip it open, instantly killing a man.
I have rode horses as well for many years, and on their character the only think I can say is that they are as varied as people, there are gentle animals, and there are son of a B...

(in reply to Le Tondu)
Post #: 32
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 6/15/2005 6:23:50 PM   
DavidI

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline
I would suggest that 9 out of 10 time where you hear about cavalry making contact with infantry, it's because the infantry flinched, or was disordered to start with. It's kinda like infantry to infantry melees, frequently shown in paintings and in the movies but very rare on the battlefield. Usually one side or the other would break before actual contact was made. Bayonet wounds were usually seen in someone's back, although some fierce bayonet fights occured when the side that would have broke had no place to go (fortifications, buildings, etc.). So again it's a morale thing. If the infantry waivers, the cavalry is encouraged. If the infantry stands, the cavalry is demoralized and is more likely to baulk or wheel away. If cavalry charges routinely, physically, collided with formed infantry then squares would have been broken by cavalry charges all the time, which is simply not the case.
DavidI

(in reply to Iñaki Harrizabalagatar)
Post #: 33
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 6/15/2005 7:02:26 PM   
Iñaki Harrizabalagatar


Posts: 825
Joined: 12/11/2001
Status: offline
I agree that charges were mainly a morale contest, but I don´t think close physical fight was that very rare, after all before fire weapons most battles were solved in close quarters fight. Even in WW2 bayonet fight was not that unusual in the Eastern Front or the Pacific.
"If cavalry charges routinely, physically, collided with formed infantry then squares would have been broken by cavalry charges all the time, which is simply not the case" but infantry was not always formed in square, most of the times it was formed in line, and there are numerous testimonies of infantry beaten by cavalry in line, in which soldiers were not only cut down by enemy sabres, but also trampled and runnig over by horses, even infantry massed in division columns 9-12 ranks deep were susceptible to cavalry attack, like Thomières division at Salamanca. Of course cavalry was more reluctant to close on infantry in formed squares, but I don´t think you can´t doubt cavalry fought infantry at close quarters many times.
To sum up, I am well aware, as i posted earlier, that most casualties in battle were produced by musket shots, and that charges, like guns, were more a morale factor, but I think there is no doubt close quarters fight was relatively frequent.

(in reply to DavidI)
Post #: 34
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 6/16/2005 7:14:55 PM   
DavidI

 

Posts: 37
Joined: 4/5/2005
Status: offline
Inaki,
True enough. Cavalry hitting a line head on is not all that different than hitting a square, but hitting it on the flank would have been a far different affair, altogether (with lots of sword/lance casualties). Infantry defense against cavalry depended on terrain, formation and above all steadiness. Keep your ranks, point your bayonets (2 or 3 ranks deep) at the enemy and you'll probably be OK. Break your ranks and your likely to have a sword come down on your skull, or a lance in your back.
I think we are pretty close in our thinking on this one.
DavidI

(in reply to Iñaki Harrizabalagatar)
Post #: 35
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 7/13/2005 10:06:19 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
Actuly a line formations front is not the same as a square formations front. Line formations are 2 or 3 man deep, but when forming square line ussuly double up in the square, making the particular sides front 4 to 6 or more man deep. Also men where kept inside a square to deal with horses that broke through, while line formations did not have this type of devense once a rider broke through the line.

There is a differnst in facing 2 guys deep, or facing 4 to 6 guys, with guys waiting for you once you make it past them. Squares where not invunerable, but they did perform better then average against discuraging the push by cav. Line formations where to thin, and to spread out to defend against a charge, they may succed, and I say they may, in taking down the first horse, but by then they have several more hacking at them, and once the cav broke thorugh any part of the line, they just roll it up any way they want.

Similar with colums, the frontal attack against a column would be nasty for cav, but they ussualy just flowed around the front, and then engagnged guys in the side and rear, guys that where not even aware what was happening untill the horses where on top of them.

Sure some cav charges where turned back by line volley fire, but ussuly only becuase the ground favored the line, or because that particular cav unit had an offday and did ot wish to push the atttack. Against a cav charge, if you are prepared, you had one volley, at 100 or less yards against a relative small target. Sure you could hit the horse, but it has been acounted that many a horses took musket or bayonet hits and still performed well for the duration of the battle.

(in reply to DavidI)
Post #: 36
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 7/14/2005 9:20:57 PM   
malcolm_mccallum

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 10/29/2004
Status: offline
With regards to the manuals dictating that Cavalry would close with the enemy as the norm, I think they had no choice but to order that.

I mean, they couldn't very well put it into the Orders and Regulations that cavalry was to looks menacing and threaten to close with infantry. The plan has to be to close and, perhaps more importantly, the infantry have to believe that they intend to close.

It may well have been common knowledge that a well ordered square could hold the enemy off but I assure you that the infantry in those squares were never quite so confident when a wall of horseflesh was moving toward them at speed. If they knew that the cavalry had written orders to never charge them it would have made them that much more determined to hold against them.


(in reply to Iñaki Harrizabalagatar)
Post #: 37
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 7/26/2005 8:25:53 AM   
Waldo_slith

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline
A lancer rgt (with lancers in the front rank) could and did break squares. The lance can outreach the bayonet. Once gaps appear in a square's side the cav can force their horses into the gaps and break up the square.

Another tactic was to have horse arty unlimber and grapeshot into the square. The remants could then be overrun by cav.

wp

(in reply to Iñaki Harrizabalagatar)
Post #: 38
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 9/15/2005 5:31:17 PM   
Moltke71


Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline
In another form a few years ago, somebody posted actual incidents of squares breaking. The summary went like this:

1. Most occured when squares were badly formed.
2. A few times, the momentum of a mortally wounded horse would carry it into the square, making a gap. Exceptional but it did happen.

_____________________________

Jim Cobb

(in reply to Waldo_slith)
Post #: 39
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 9/24/2005 1:26:37 AM   
Rosen

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 9/24/2005
Status: offline
Hi all

Just had to put in my 2 cents about cavalry tactics. The swedes during Great nothern wars (Yes i am swedish) used wedges. Every squadron operated independently and were put forming an arrow with the troopers touchin eachother "knee behind knee". The swedes didnt use the caracole as many others did at this time, they always charged there enemy (thats true for infantry too but its another story), anyway there charge made a single section of the infantry formation (or cavalry) feel chosen to be the first to fall and often waver and break just because of that threat and eventually a wave of demoralization to follow in the whole unit. The swedes often just had to cut the units down from behind.

Now say you use the same tactic with a cavalry line noone would feel "chosen" and the steadiness would be better since everyone had to put up a fight...

The zastrow Cuirassiers mentioned in this thread experienced the same thing when chargin home on the Russians behind the redoubt, i am sure of it...

Sorry if my english is bad

NR

(in reply to Moltke71)
Post #: 40
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 11/4/2005 8:36:37 PM   
akileez

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline
Here are my thoughts, revolving around the Waterloo campaign and infantry versus cavalry events.

All indications show the Allied infantry at Waterloo were saved by the mistimed French cavalry charges, which Napoleon, upon getting wind of the hasty decision by Ney fully supported thereafter, with his 'what's done is done' thinking. Much debate goes on about the French artillery role that day. Many say the French guns were ineffective due to the mud/Wellington's reverse slope tactics... and indeed these are valid statements.
However, the actual evidence shows that the Allied infantry suffered from cannon fire horribly even still. Remember, Ney's initial reason to attack Wellington was seeing streams of Allied soldiers pouring back on the road to Brussels... Prussian ADCs and liasons in the battle point out this fact as do the journals of Allied soldiers in Wellington's center. Wellington himself was considering a general retreat back to the ports at this crucial stage of the battle. No effective major French attack was taking place on Wellington's center to have wreaked such havoc, so the power of French artillery was indeed colossal, and with drier ground and not for the use of Wellington's reverse slope tactics the French cavalry would have been likely pursuing an army in full retreat by 4 p.m that day.

Back to the cavalry aspect, Allied soldier's accounts state at Waterloo they were relieved to see the repeated French cavalry attacks since in between the assaults, French artillery fire did considerable damage to their formations. One Brit unit -27th foot- was slaughtered in square formation by 2 french guns brought up for close support/canister. In the days of Wagram and other 'glorious' victories, the Fench would have brought up 2 or 3 batteries directly behind large set-piece cavalry attacks to shatter enemy infantry formations.

Why were Ney's repeated cavalry attacks beaten back with 'ease'? Allied infantry morale though shaky was not shattered which is one crucial aspect of repelling a cavalry attack. Also Wellington wisely deployed his more 'untried' forces [several untouched fresh divisions] in reserve behind his 'veteran' front line which absorbed the initial brunt of French skirmishers/artillery fire/cavalry attacks, thus giving these raw infantry formations the confidance to beat off the petered out French horsemen that did make it back that far into the Allied lines. A defiant cohesive force generally beats back cavalry. This occured in the final dramatic events at Waterloo when several units of Napoleon's Imperial Guard held out in squares [and in one case a 'trangle'!] against Allied and Prussian cavalry intent on delivering the coup-de-grace. Remember also how British gun-battery Captain Mercer defying orders to retire his men back into the nearest square instead steadfastly delivered terrible carnage on attacking French cavalry at point blank range.

Another factor that saves the infantry's bacon or destroys it in the face of cavalry attacks is terrain. Though the slope at Waterloo in front of Wellington's position was not very steep, it was a muddy wheat-trampled slippery incline - thus the paintings showing full blown long strided charges uphill are inaccurate. Witness accounts attest to this. The cavalry were exhausted once getting to the summit and reduced to milling about the prepared Allied squares until counter-attacked by fresher Allied cavalry. Also, a large portion of Wellington's center was bisected laterally by a significantly deep sunken road [Ohain road] which in effect broke up a cavalry units 'charge' impteus in order to attempt crossing this feature.
Infantry in motion/not in square caught in the open by cavalry appearing out of nearby obscuring terrain or smoke was often crushed. As with Halkett's brigade at Quatre Bras and other Dutch/Belgian units that day. The tall crop fields where the Highland brigade was caught in line by a French lancer attack at the same battle fared better [ cooly turning their rear rank about face].

Leadership/tactics also was an element. At Waterloo the Prince of Orange ignored his veteran subordinate staff appeals to march a Hanoverian battalion in square to support their besieged comrades at La Haye Sainte. Halfway to the farmhouse they were caught in Line and smashed by French cavalry lurking hidden in the area.
Lord Uxbridge, commanding the Allied cavalry was definately in 'his game' at Waterloo and his superbly timed attacks against D'Erlon's infantry and the French cavalry were stellar. Ney on the otherhand, flawed commiting too many fresh cavalry against an unbroken enemy and without bringing up substantial artillery units in close support. The fact that he repeatedly charged this units until utterly exhausted totally spent their effectiveness for the remainder of the battle, who knows... perhaps a fresh intact French cavalry force could have staved off the rout and pursuit of the French army.

As for commanders and care of their infantry alot can also be said.
Wellington with foresight and prudence ordered the standard 2 rank line of his forces compacted to 4 ranks at Waterloo after seeing the devastation wreaked by surprise French cavalry attacks at Quatre-Bras. Meanwhile, foolishly, French commanders at Waterloo, D'Erlon and Soult along with Napoleon's blessing doomed their infantry in their grand assault on the Allied left. Marching their men in phalanxes of battalions in line as a compact entirety unable to deploy in the event of a cavalry attack. Though this infantry phalanx did indeed push back the Allied infantry by sheer weight of manpower at some points after sustaining the first shattering British volleys, they stood no chance as a disorganised mob caught in the sunken roads and upslope against the 'finest cavalry' in Europe appearing suddenly in the fray- the elite Household and Union brigades - which too more galloped lightly into their attack rather than a thunderous charge - the fact that they carried their attack downhill too also added to the attack's effectiveness.

Late edit- Sorry for post's length,lol- I get so carried away regarding this battle, I didn't realise I wrote so much.

In short, [ ] I suppose it all comes down to surprise of the cavalry on an unprepared enemy - either due to terrain and/or mentally. One extraordinary feat of cavalry arms in the Napoleonic Wars that supports this is the attack by Saxon cavalry that singlehandedly captured the formidable Raevsky redoubt at Borodino even after losing half its men to cannonfire from this mini-fortress. [edit; for those unfamiliar with the episode, the attack was aided by shrouds of gunsmoke in the area]

< Message edited by akileez -- 11/8/2005 8:05:15 PM >

(in reply to Rosen)
Post #: 41
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 11/5/2005 12:01:06 PM   
lancerunolfsson

 

Posts: 257
Joined: 2/7/2005
Status: offline
Nice post akileez

(in reply to akileez)
Post #: 42
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 11/5/2005 6:26:15 PM   
Moltke71


Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline
akileez,

I would only add to your excellent post that the carcasses and corpses of earlier charges slowed down later cavalry charges. Horses are skittish about stepping in mushy stuff.

_____________________________

Jim Cobb

(in reply to lancerunolfsson)
Post #: 43
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 11/6/2005 2:48:57 AM   
Le Tondu


Posts: 564
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

Wonderful post indeed. Thank you akileez. BTW, long is good.

Rick

< Message edited by Le Tondu -- 11/6/2005 2:55:38 AM >


_____________________________

Vive l'Empereur!

(in reply to akileez)
Post #: 44
RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges - 11/8/2005 7:47:21 PM   
akileez

 

Posts: 77
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline
Wow, thanks for the great response!!! I initially feared I went on a bit with the depth.

quote:

Bismarck
I would only add to your excellent post that the carcasses and corpses of earlier charges slowed down later cavalry charges. Horses are skittish about stepping in mushy stuff.

Excellent point..... and one I didn't know about regarding about regarding hooves treading on mushy stuff.

(in reply to Le Tondu)
Post #: 45
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Age of Muskets] >> Horse and Musket: Volume I, Frederick the Great >> RE: Napoleonic Cavalry charges Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.813