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RE: Any way to combat Waste ?

 
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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 7:10:12 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		I personally dont think waste should be tied to total production per se...at least not on the same scale. I think production earned from upgrades should be significantly less wasteful than production gained from simple mass (ie, having lots of provinces).

In my perfect world, it would be possible to build up a robust econ that isnt crippled by waste if you invest in it rather than taking it. A lot of 'waste' would come from administering remote provinces and certainly from conquered areas. But having that same amount of waste apply in home provinces where economic investments are being made seems off base.

So, in simple terms waste should factor in based somewhat on total production to a degree, but far moreso based on the number of provinces either producing 'x' resource or perhaps just based on the number of provinces you own in general. The larger the empire, the harder it should be to squeeze every iota out of. Communications and transport just werent up to the task. But small well developed empires should have little trouble being 'efficient' IMO.

As far as 'balance' is concerned, the smaller, more efficient empire will have more resources and money, but would still be capped by population and labor constraits. At any rate, there SHOULD be a pretty big economic advantage for investing in the econ, eh?

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 7:17:36 AM   
Queeg


Posts: 495
Joined: 6/23/2005
Status: offline 		I don't mind using Waste or some similar concept as a restriction on the "steamroller" effect that usually ruins games like this. But it is important that the factors that cause it are understood and that the player has some ability to counteract it, even if only slightly. Otherwise, it would make more sense to just ratchet back the economy across the board.

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Post #: 32
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 2:54:08 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		as it stands right now, I still see Waste as a game breaker
can't do anything about it, so why bother, why build anything, why do anything in the game at all

knock a side out of the war, then sit on there doorstep and pound them each turn till you get a enough glory to win, oh boy

sorry, I think it was a poorly thought out idea (the idea may be good, how it works is poorly thought out)

I have played the game every day since it came out, I will finish off my current game and shut it down until the patch comes out and we see how they handle it

(my Current game, a 1796 started as France, 6 of the 8 sides are broke, waste has crippled every one)

HARD_Sarge

a shame, as I really like the game and the system

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 4:14:04 PM   
Jordan

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		From Hard Sarge:

quote:

my Current game, a 1796 started as France, 6 of the 8 sides are broke, waste has crippled every one


Do you know this to be accurate...that it was waste that made them broke? Not their wars, etc?

I like the idea that this isn't another conquer a province, get more powerful, build more troops from the resources of the newly conquered province (from folks who now can't seem to want to do enough for me), conquer two more provinces, get even more powerful, rinse-wash and repeat....this is just boring and it turns me off quicker to a game than listening to Pamela Anderson talk.....there goes the illusion.

I would like to have a middle and end game for once (all the Pamela games above do not - Rome Total War tried but who are you kidding? Imperial Glory...same ol, same ol.) The only way to do so is to maintain some balance and, oh by the way, inject some realism into the game. How many successful world conquerors have their been? Napoleon didn't completley dismantle Austria and Prussia for smart reasons...he was after dominance and legitimacy, he knew he couldn't govern their countries (at least directly). Anyway, you and I disagree I think on more than just how waste works and having the economy (and waste) spelled out a more clearly - I thnk the developers also could have managed expectations a little better by having a clearer idea in the manual as well

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 4:38:07 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jordan
Do you know this to be accurate...that it was waste that made them broke? Not their wars, etc?


Realistically, it is all of the above that made them broke. Income and expenses figure into the equasion.

And I agree with you. If a nation has enough resources to do everything it wishes to do, then there is no challenge. Strategy games are about making choices and limited resources are one of the constraints that forces you to make trade offs. There might need to be some minor tweaking of the system, but we need to maintain the general concepts of not being able to grow too strong and not being able to build everything you might want.

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Post #: 35
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 5:39:42 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		yes, but

limit the resourse, is fine, limit the numbers is fine, but don't let me, make me build 150 of this a month, but only let me have 3 when the month is over

don't make me wait 3 month to save enough labor so I can build a Farm, so I can improve how much wine I can make, and then take all the wine away from me, because I make too much wine

heck, I shouldn't need to make any wine for the people, as they stole it all already, what do they need more for

and again, I disagree with the idea that this make the game more a non take over the world, as it stands now, just muddle though and take as much as you can, cause it don't matter one way or another to your people if you are mean or nice, you are not going to get anything you build

as I said, in this game, I have been very peaceful (for me) and I still own over 55 ciies, everybody else can't wait to go to war with me, only to be beaten silly, when they surrender, there is nothing else to take but there land, treadys and peace is worthless, as they will break those as soon as they think you are not looking there way

(LOL, for the last 6 months, Spain has been marching into my lands, only to run back when the box comes up telling me they are on my land, and what do I want to do)


okay, the part I do not understand or follow, if you want to limit what the player does, up the cost of your troops, you have 50 Divs, it is going to cost you this, if you have 60-75 Divs, it is going to cost double, if you have 75-100 Divs, it is going to triple, if I have the money and goods to pay for 100 Divs, so be it, if I don't, I better not build that many

and this way, you have a reason to improve your cities

HARD_Sarge

LOL I just lost 400 points in my morale, as I couldn't build enough Wine for the masses

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Post #: 36
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 5:51:58 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I am currently running Sweden in 1792 scenario. Date is late 1797 and I'm making money and my Army is growing (slowly)
I have fought 2 wars with Prussia (won them both)
Currently involved in major war with Turkey (protectorate in Mecklenburg and Denmark so I allied with Russia and Britian )
You can't continualy develop all your provinces. You have to plan "I want to build a barracks in Stockhome next year" (opposed to "this instant")
Before I moved my Army South for war I stockpiled food. (and had divisions deployed on my borders to keep out strays)
Sweden is in third place (victory is simply highest Glory at games end) I still have 5 provinces on my hit parade from list of those I wanted to aquire at start.
I'm not a good Ally. When Britian threatened to take Mecklenburg and there was a major Prussian-Turkish Force on Berlin (fighting the Russians) I moved one of minor Ally (Bavaria) Divisions onto Berlin and then called the British as reinforcements. The Prussian-Turk Force hammered us but it kept Mecklenburg out of British hands.
I keep a few units in Pomeria for such uses. (Prussia ceded Pomeria to Sweden after the first war. ) As a condition of surrender in the seconded war I had Prussia declare war on Turkey. (now that large combined Army in Berlin is no longer a problem. )
Events go rather slow in this game. Plenty of time to arrange them to unfold in your favor.
It is not a game about production. Production is just another tool you have to use to get what you want. You can't build your way to victory (it costs too much)
You have to build enough to maintain what you have and over time squeeze out just a little more. Bavaria provided 100k troops (2.5 morale) also a diplomat (they have been busy running other diplomats out of town) The troops are now 4+ morale from sitting on outnumbered Turko Prussian garrisons. (Bavaria is producing troops much faster then Sweden) most of the new units go to keeping the older ones at 10k.
In 1792 I wanted to be ready for war by 1800. I'm going much faster then I planned.
I really didn't even know I was wasting production.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/12/2005 5:55:40 PM >

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 6:08:58 PM   
Jordan

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

heck, I shouldn't need to make any wine for the people, as they stole it all already, what do they need more for


Ask Fouche to check all knapsacks, there's not a Marshal's baton in there, there's a fine bottle of port.

I agree that it is frustrating. I also completely agree that if the game is supposed to be about dominance and not conquest, then other elements of the game need to keep you interested...robust diplomacy options (money, trade goods, alliances, demilitarization...perhaps you should have the ability to influence their economic and foreign policy decisions, although I don't know how that could be done, or be able to have all FOG lifted for that country so you can see what they're doing) need to be worth it and more importantly the econcomic/development side of the game needs to keep your interest. As argued by chastin and Uncle Joe and you, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of incentive to improve your economy.

So I agree that waste and economic develoment should be tweaked, I just don't want to see this turn into a steamroller game. I would like the opportunities for other countries to remain viable, to remain a challenge and to retain the ability to make a comeback...part of that is to limit the ability of one nation from becoming all powerful and limiting the ability to cover the map. Therefore, the game needs to make it in the self-interest of a dominant player not to try and cover the map.

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Post #: 38
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 6:18:13 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I'm not convinced we have all learned all there is to know about the economic model.
I thought I was doing well. I didn't even know about waste till last night so it has not been something that bothered me before now.
Are we certain that some players interaction is not simply more wastefull then others? (As opposed to waste being a built in mechanism that effect all economic practices evenly)
In any event. I like the game system so far. My only problem is when after I spend a fortune getting a country to like me some knucklehead from the other side of the map gets a protectorate and then I have to fight the units built with my money in the forts built with my money. (I'm still chomping at the bit to get into a 8 human player games.)
However I think turn 1 online would take forever so I think online players should be able to set up a game "Friday at 8pm) and then send a turn file PBEM to each player that on Friday at 8pm is loaded. (with all those long turn 1 orders already finished)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/12/2005 6:20:59 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 9:01:25 PM   
Mr. Z


Posts: 1048
Joined: 3/24/2005
Status: offline 		IIRC, "waste" was originally implemented in order to make it difficult to manage a large empire a la Napoleon. Is the feeling here that it makes it too difficult to manage even a nation which stays within its original boundaries?

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 9:22:06 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z
IIRC, "waste" was originally implemented in order to make it difficult to manage a large empire a la Napoleon. Is the feeling here that it makes it too difficult to manage even a nation which stays within its original boundaries?


It is just my own two cents worth, but I haven't heard a lot of cries of "this game is too hard and you can't win at all because you can never get your economy off the ground." Sure, a lot of production is lost to waste. But the economies work and are balanced. Any major reduction in waste would make things way too easy IMO unless you have a corresponding increase to cost of goods - in which case you're really just inflating the numbers within the reports more than anything.

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Post #: 41
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 9:24:27 PM   
ahauschild

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think one of the factors for waste should be original home province or not

Basicly if you as Spain, capture somehow part of sweden, it would be very hard to controll coruption and such as you dont only deal with distance, but with cultural differents and such. But your own home provinces should be easily controlled against total coruption.

Make the home province products saver from coruption, and then increase coruption in areas outside of your original home provinces. You may include some non conquered home provinces in the home province list, such as they historicaly would belong to your empire duo to ethnic persuation.

Just a thought. Also to demonstrate better the support problems away from your provinces, have Unit support go through the roof if Units go more then a few provinces from your home provinces. Have your Protectors not count as home provinces for this regard.

Also drop moral on armys that are to far from home provinces as lets say the Spanish Troops for sure did not want to be marching for the better part of the year around in Russia.

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 10:04:15 PM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
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From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

IIRC, "waste" was originally implemented in order to make it difficult to manage a large empire a la Napoleon. Is the feeling here that it makes it too difficult to manage even a nation which stays within its original boundaries?


The one change I might make is to make Textile waste the same as all others - 50% for units 10-30 and then 90% above that level instead of always 90%. Textiles seem to be the gating factor for a lot of things and that would make 8 more available to everyone per turn. It might not sound like much, but that would be a significant bump in production capabilities.

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Post #: 43
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 11:00:12 PM   
carburo

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		I think the whole idea of waste should be linked to a nation’s expansion rate. Given that you have to expand in order to win, if waste is linked to expansion the game can be balanced without making the economic aspect of the game irrelevant.
I think provinces could be modeled in two different sets for each nation: core provinces and foreign provinces. In the core provinces upgrades should yield reasonable benefits, so you could get a stronger economy to support your expansion. The foreing provinces should be in fact a burden, yielding perhaps some manpower or special resource and only minimal production to the conqueror, so that in order to keep them you had to expend more resources than they produce. Taking new provinces shouldn’t be a way of strenghtening your economy, at least in the short term, but should weaken your position and drain your resources. This way, you would be forced to try to expand because you need it to win, but the steamroller effect that expansion usually cause in most games could be avoided. As I see it, Tyrol should be an Austrian province: upgrades there should yield benefits to Austria, but not to other players. As France, taking Tyrol from Austria would make sense only because of the glory points I’ll get from controlling it and because it weakens Austria, but it should give me no inmediate economic benefits. Waste could be a good way of implementing this. Every non-core province a player controls should increase the level of waste for the whole nation, accounting for the task of governing a hostile country, so efectively reducing the available resources for further expansion. If you choose not to expand, you could, via upgrades in your core regions, get a healthy economy and a lot of resources, but you would be losing the game.
Upgrades in the core provinces should be necessary to pay for the expansion, and conquered provinces should act as a brake to prevent fast expansion. Each fation would concentrate on upgrading its own core provinces, and perhaps build some structures (walls, guns, courts) in the conquered ones that could have the effect of slightly diminishing waste. Non-core provinces, especially those bordering your core ones, could be slowly assimilated after a series of upgrades and a certain (long) period of time of uninterrupted control, providing some flexibility to the system and allowing for more logical expansions.
I don’t know how hard it would be to implement it. It’s just an idea that I think would add some richness to the game and make waste a little more logical. It wouldn’t be very different from history. Most empires have been built based on a core region that supplied the manpower and economic resources for the expansion. Conquered regions more often than not have been a burden, and have yielded proportionally much less resources to the new rulers than the original areas.
By the way, the powerful enemy diplomat WIFE is creating great havoc in my supply lines, and I can’t expell her from my lands. Any idea about what to do?

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 11:05:20 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Overall, I like the way waste is implemented. As was mentioned elsewhere, there were no semis or trains to efficiently move excess production overland. The best way to transport goods in the late 1700s - early 1800s was by ship. Inland production had limited markets. Just because you increase the production of textiles by certain percentage doesn't mean your peasants increase their demand by the same percentage. It also doesn't mean that the excess production transports itself to a needy market for free. At a certain point a nation's appetite for a good is sated. In part, the game seems to use waste to model the lowering of return on a good that is being overproduced.

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/12/2005 11:05:51 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

By the way, the powerful enemy diplomat WIFE is creating great havoc in my supply lines, and I can’t expell her from my lands. Any idea about what to do?


You are in trouble. Her espionage and influence levels are astronomical, and you will need the special diplomat LAWYER (who costs boucoup bucks and lots of luxuries) to Capture/Expel her.

I recommend an Offer Ceasefire, followed by a Subsidize with LOTS of money.

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Post #: 46
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 4:09:00 AM   
EarlPembroke

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline 		These are some good ideas. My thoughts:
* Courts should have some impact on something - such as waste. Otherwise, they are the least need to build. Even Culture increases across the country (because cheaper at lower levels) is encouraged.
* Better to have waste lower as your development increases - maybe based on courts and average development level across all developments across all provinces. So empire of low-developed provinces experiences more waste than developed.
* Have waste increased based on # of provinces. So that larger the country, more waste / less efficient. Distance &communication, transportation, etc. hampered.Think of Russia vs. Saxony.
* Even barracks & upgrades may be better if implemented similarly. Now it's basically that when you conquer more territories, you get more upgrades, resulting in stronger armies meaning you can conquer more territory.
* Waste as it is (90% loss at upper levels?) is not realistic. A sliding scale based on some of the above factors and some base rate that perhaps more you produce the more waste, might be OK. Rather than rework the prices, can we just have a similar AVERAGE level of waste after tweaks?

I think if you gear toward average development level and tie in courts and/or other less-used (e.g. not barracks, factories, or farms) upgrades and make waste go up as nation size does (or as you take more non-national provinces if that is an option), you encourage more economic development. If larger countries are incented to do this instead of build larger armies and bulldoze everyone, doesn't it help to constrain expansionism??? It becomes more of a "more butter makes me stronger, though I may be smaller" approach being feasible.

And thus we have some tie to situation mentioned above as to why Napoleon didn't conquer & absorb all of Europe. Speaking of - something needs to be done about Austria giving France Tyrol, but then taking Provence from them instead when they win the next war.... But that is another topic...

OK - ready for everyone to disagree now.

< Message edited by EarlPembroke -- 7/13/2005 4:15:10 AM >

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 4:22:28 AM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
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From: Palouse, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Overall, I like the way waste is implemented. As was mentioned elsewhere, there were no semis or trains to efficiently move excess production overland. The best way to transport goods in the late 1700s - early 1800s was by ship. Inland production had limited markets. Just because you increase the production of textiles by certain percentage doesn't mean your peasants increase their demand by the same percentage. It also doesn't mean that the excess production transports itself to a needy market for free. At a certain point a nation's appetite for a good is sated. In part, the game seems to use waste to model the lowering of return on a good that is being overproduced.


Perhaps waste could be tied to population, including military. The higher the pop then the more goods are consumed and the less waste. Goods could be shipped to other controlled provinces with only a percentage reaching them depending on distance. To have a set amount doesn't seem right.

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RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 5:13:27 AM   
EarlPembroke

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline 		Did we establish that waste affects labor, too? I have 80+ labor with it showing that I'm +56 per turn. But every turn it seems to be capped at 91 labor. I can't increase the level of roads in a province that requires 96. So even though I should have approximately 135 labor, I have been capped twice now at 91. ?????

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Post #: 49
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 5:36:04 AM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
Joined: 8/8/2003
From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline 		The ideal situation would be to apply waste on a province by province basis with the exact amount being affected by province improvements, whether or not it is a home territory and distance to the capital. The problem is, that's not how the game is coded. Waste isn't applied at a provincial level - its applied at a national level. And therefore applying that ideal situation is a lot of work and likely isn't something we'll see in any patch in the near future.

Therefore the question becomes, is it possible to tweak the formulas used at the national level to be closer to the desired state? Changing that single formula a bit probably isn't a whole lot of work and that could very well be something we could get within the first patch or two. Number of provinces is a factor that likely could be used fairly easily, but I am wary of doing so because it would cause people to cherry pick even more than they do currently and the map would be even an even crazier quilt of ownership colors. Using the average level of roads plus courthouses is probably a bit more work but that might be a reasonable compromise. Using the proportion of home provinces also seems like a solid option.

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Post #: 50
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 5:37:46 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Prehaps waste is the wrong label. Perhaps material produced but not available for military use is more fitting a label.

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Post #: 51
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 5:43:20 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Waste as implemented is fine for overall balance, but not so good considering the cost of upgrading your econ.

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Post #: 52
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 6:02:22 AM   
jchastain


Posts: 2164
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From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncle_Joe
Waste as implemented is fine for overall balance, but not so good considering the cost of upgrading your econ.


Yep. It was bad enough that each upgrade only produces roughly one additional unit of production. But when you consider that 90% of additional production is usually wasted, it means you have to upgrade 10 factories to get one additional textile per month.

What we could do is make farms, factories and banks yield 25% instead of 10% and then multiply total production by 0.6 to keep from flooding the economy. That is the break even figure at 4 improvements, so any province with less than that would produce a bit less than it does currently and any province with more would produce a bit more. Of course, over the long term overall production would go as people built additional improvements making the late game economy a bit easier on big and small countries alike.

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Post #: 53
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 6:22:53 AM   
Queeg


Posts: 495
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

IIRC, "waste" was originally implemented in order to make it difficult to manage a large empire a la Napoleon. Is the feeling here that it makes it too difficult to manage even a nation which stays within its original boundaries?


The problem with waste as currently implemented is not that it makes to game too hard. In fact, I think the balance is pretty good as is.

The problem is that waste serves as a disincentive to build many of the improvements available in the game. Why build factories - or even establish trade routes - if 50-90% of your effort is wasted? Better if the current balance could be maintained AND the player encouraged to develop his empire.

(in reply to Mr. Z)
Post #: 54
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 7:21:42 AM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting, I was analyzing some of how this game works compared to other 'empire builders'. One that I was quite fond of was Imperialism II and I think it had a nicely scaled econ system. In the beginning of the game, you had to scrape and scrabble to get by. Towards the end, you had the resources to field huge armies and navies to fight with. You lost hordes of units in battles and had to churn out replacements (especially at sea).

One of the things that works against that in CoG is the way units work. You dont have to replace as many units as they are filled up from the Draft Pool. You also dont have to pay for 'research' or anything per se (although you do need to build Barracks and whatnot to gain more upgrades). Also, many units are 'free' from the Levies. In fact, its often very expensive to maintain the units such that I'm often not even looking to build much on my own.

Another major difference between CoG and many other 'builder' type games is that in many scenarios/campaigns, the nations are already built up (and indeed, engaged in full-scale war). So, if upgrades are allowed, then they are building upon an already full fledged econ. Its not a question of building up to allow large armies...you already HAVE large armies.

Anyways, I agree that it seems that newly added areas are far to productive to quickly. If I annex some remote location, next turn its busily cranking away resources as easily as if it was one of my home provinces. This heavily reduces the desire to want to pay to upgrade those home provinces.

One thing that could help if it could be pulled off is to further differentiate resources vs refined goods. I have no problems with remote locations providing raw materials, but it should be the home provinces that generally convert them into the finished products. Obviously this would not apply to all resources and I dont think the system is set up to account for it anyways. At the very least, I dont believe that 'labor' should be an easy to 'conquer' resource. Labor outside your homeland should be very inefficient IMO.

But within the current framework, I think something along the lines of gradiating the waste levels a bit more while reducing the costs of improvements (including time) might help.

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Post #: 55
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 11:02:44 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I still don't see exactly what the problem is. Your not supposed to be able to max out all your provinces. You want more textiles? You don't have that many people that can weave. Putting another 1000 on the job is going to waste a lot of cotton and wool because your workers are not skilled and there are no good machines unskilled labor can learn.
To get 1 more item you can use you are going to waste a lot of effort.
Build guns and walls when you get maxed out on production.
Now if your not getting enough to support your population then thats a problem.
If you have surplus food and roads your population increases but these are serfs and peasents not high school or colledge graduates (Cannon fodder not tool and die men)
The game would have to last to 1860 for you to see real increase in productiivty and then not in every nation (sorry Russia and Turkey )
I'll have to get deeper into games to develop a feel for what the problem is ere. So far I have only gotten 7 years into any scenario. (The most common scenario I see being played lasts 5 years)
I think people are thinking too fast. The game has the system that in the end will produce the more modern economies but not in the length of time of any scenario. There was in fact a lot of waste in moving from fuedal systems to industrial systems.

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Post #: 56
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 6:58:01 PM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline 		The 'problem' is that the game includes a lot of options for improving the economy, but the current waste system makes most of those options unappealing. So, a large part of the economic decisions are removed from the game. Why build Factories, Farms, Banks etc above the few basic levels when they will contribute nearly nothing and probably not even pay for themselves within the timeframe of the game?

The game appears to be set up to allow for 'guns or butter' decision-making. But the waste removes the true decision...you are almost always better off going for 'guns'. Also, the waste system appears to be there to prevent the steam-roller effect. Thats good and I think something needs to be there to do so. Unfortunately it also hits the nations that are sitting back and peacefully developing, again robbing that of being an avenue to victory.

In the end, the current waste system appears to limit the player's options. Since improving the econ isnt profitable in the long run, that leaves military conquest as the only real option. If that is the intent (and I'd have no problem with that, personally), then I think removing the options to better the econ would be a good idea. Leaving them in and having them not work out doesnt feel right, especially for newer players.



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(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 57
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 7:16:19 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline
quote:

The 'problem' is that the game includes a lot of options for improving the economy, but the current waste system makes most of those options unappealing. So, a large part of the economic decisions are removed from the game. Why build Factories, Farms, Banks etc above the few basic levels when they will contribute nearly nothing and probably not even pay for themselves within the timeframe of the game?


Ever dealt with a human player that ranges across your provinces plundering as he goes? You'll love the idea of being able to rebuild these items....

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Post #: 58
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 7:40:59 PM   
Uncle_Joe


Posts: 1985
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Ever dealt with a human player that ranges across your provinces plundering as he goes? You'll love the idea of being able to rebuild these items....


*sigh* Thats not the same thing as having a viable option to play an economic game and try and better your production internally rather than through conquest. If the options are included in the game, then they should (IMO) be viable options. If the intent is not to allow nations to significantly better their econ through internal investment, then at the very least, it should be pointed to that effect.

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Post #: 59
RE: Any way to combat Waste ? - 7/13/2005 7:48:58 PM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I still think players are looking at their economies through WWII/modern eyes.
Say I want more horses. I just slide my bar and whammo next turn I get more horses
SOme might be wasted but a horse is not a hat and you don't increase the number of cavaraly horse in 30 days by telling farmers to produce more.
1 horse point =125 actual horses
If I decided in May 1792 I required another 1250 horse per month it would be after May 1794 before I saw any extra horses. This is a law of nature. No efforts on my part at any cost can produce a full grown trained for war horse in less then 30 days. (like in game)
UNLESS
We are not actually producing more horses but rather simply gathering a higher percentage of existing horses up to the point where it becomes wastefull to try to gather more.
(The number of actual horses coming of servicable age each month is always higher then the number we select to collect. However there is a limit to the number we can collect and distribute. The difference is known as waste. High waste means you've past the limit your able to process.
OK horse are easy because we know it takes over 2 years to produce a horse we can put into a military unit.
So lets look at food.
Now once again I want to make clear that before I read these comments I didn't even know waste existed.
I simply go turn to turn adjusting my in province sliders to produce numbers highter then those required.
The question has been raised why build improvements.
Well for 1 reason they are connected to more then simple output of material.
More barracks means a wider choice of units.
More Guns and walls better defense
More roads more population. (population is used to form Military units as well as work the production systems. Population also figures into tax.)
The only improvements directly tied to production are farms and factories. Both are areas where extended time would be required to produce any real increase in final output. (more then game requires)
However it should be easy to know in advance if such developments are worthwhile. (Checks your reports)
What I mean is we are really only talking about 2 possible developments. Farm and Factoriy. All the others have benifit not connected to waste or production. And in real world terms neither had quick unwastefull paths to higher output. Certainly not in the span of even the longest scenario. It takes over 10 years to train a worker you can then train to do a skilled job. (Thats why we have public schools)
If a factory in 1796 was planning to expand production building a larger complex would result in 0 increase in output unless the workers could be found. Sending 10,000 serfs to the iron works is not going to result in increase of anything except waste.
I think we also need to divide labor into 3 catagories.
1. Skilled
2. Farm
3. Unskilled
And then base our production numbers on size of complex times number of workers. It would then be easy to see why you can't expand past a certain point.

Back to horses for a minute. In my current solo game I am wasting 6 horses per turn. (750 horses die each month before I can use them)
Now in reality a certain portion of my collected horses are going to perish each month. Just by collecting 3875 per month in a large herd (my current number is 23 per month with 6 going to waste)
The actual number of horses I have for use should include waste as a matter of course. (If I have 10 Cav units thats 100,000 horses) In this case waste could be reasoned to be simply the number of horse I have to expend just replacing the ones that get sick and die. (Or age) My horse level would decline if I did not at least aquire enough new horse each month to replace normal attrition.
For other items there is a certain waste. Spices/Food/Lux all have "shelf lifes" A certain amount are going to "waste away" each month. I need to replace this loss before I can compute any gains. However players tend to view the process as "I built it it should be there till I decide to use it" In reality it becomes a chore just to retain a stockpile because most items don't last. You can store food in 1792 for a period but not forever.
Much will be lost simply moving it about. To outpace loss (waste) is not easy.
Your base production just to maintain a level has to equal your monthly loss. Now add in consumption.
To put it simply, it is a wastefull period in human history. To get 1 extra food point you may need to grow 10 more points. That was the problem (why nations did not simply say "You know it would be a good idea to increase output"


< Message edited by Mogami -- 7/13/2005 8:27:08 PM >

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