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assaulting tanks in 8.4 ?

 
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assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/14/2005 10:13:14 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		It seems much harder for troops to assaut tanks in 8.4. Even with more experience, forest terrain, reduced searching and troop toughness increased infantry just cannot sneak up on armour anymore even from one hex. The tanks spot them from point blank and blow them away. Far from making infantry a more important or powerful force on the field, 8.4 unfortunately seems to give tanks an even greater advantage over the poor foot sloggers.
Post #: 1
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/14/2005 11:38:27 AM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		geez, you cant even catch an elephant unaware. you can run full speed to within 2 hexes and remain unspotted but creep forward one hex next turn and your toast. So much for the brave tank hunters of Kursk

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Post #: 2
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/14/2005 11:43:06 AM   
KNomad


Posts: 339
Joined: 8/1/2004
From: Buffalo, NY USA
Status: offline 		Say it ain't so .... squad assaults are my favorite part of the game.

Tips for assaulting armor:
Suppress the target first if able.
Turn squad weapons off & set range to 0 before advancing on target.


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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/14/2005 12:10:13 PM   
Baneman

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 8/29/2004
Status: offline 		Well, that's good to hear - you have no idea how angry I would get when my opponents' sniper or bailed-crew would successfully assault a PzIVG

Btw - is the use of bailed-crew as spotters in PBEM regarded as "gamey" ? I always try to get mine "out of Dodge" as if IRL, but I notice that my opponents ( who admittedly, whip my @ss ) leave them hanging around and even attack with them.

Cheers

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/14/2005 12:55:50 PM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Actually Baneman your opponents will be pleased to know that they can go on assaulting with snipers as that bug is unfixed. In fact under the new spotting routines snipers are the only foot unit that can sucessfully sneak up and assault armour. Proper infantry squads with molotovs, tankmines and satchel charges get an 88 in the face everytime

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/14/2005 1:21:49 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		If you can rout the tank first, you'll have a chance. Other than that, be prepared to sacrifice some of your boys to get the job done.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/14/2005 6:08:13 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		Yes Buttoned or Routed tanks can be assualted much easier.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/15/2005 12:58:19 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Why not drop smoke in front of your tank-killer team (assuming they have smoke grenades) in the turn prior to moving adjacent/close assault? Wouldn't this be a prudent move? If the assault fails, you have the smoke to cover your retreat (that is, IF your assault unit survives).

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/15/2005 6:50:23 AM   
Major Destruction


Posts: 881
Joined: 8/10/2000
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I drove a t-28 loaded with engineers into a Finnish squad and lost the engineers, wiped out and then the finnish squad assaulted the tank and destroyed it.

If infantry is this good against tanks who needs anti-tank guns?

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/15/2005 1:16:29 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
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From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

I drove a t-28 loaded with engineers into a Finnish squad and lost the engineers, wiped out and then the finnish squad assaulted the tank and destroyed it.

If infantry is this good against tanks who needs anti-tank guns?


Probably just because they were Finns, fearsome opponents. That reminds me I haven't done a Finn scenario lately. Hmmm.


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Retreat is NOT an option.



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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/16/2005 6:40:52 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I have noticed the same thing now that I have played a couple more games, its very hard to sneak up on a tank

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Post #: 11
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/16/2005 7:26:58 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		I think this adds to realism...
you need to button the tank first....instead off just strolling up to it and blowing it up..

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/18/2005 4:06:16 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		You guys sound like professional tank killers. All suggestions noted. I keep visualizing the situation. A huge Tiger tank and I'm gonna creep up on it, calmly place sticky bombs, or whatever I have at hand...shades of SPR!

I'll do it in a game. That is the ONLY place I'll do it.

WB

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Post #: 13
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/18/2005 12:41:29 PM   
Gloo

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 4/4/2001
From: Chapelle-Guillaume
Status: offline
quote:

It seems much harder for troops to assaut tanks in 8.4...


I disagree with that. Seems to me much more realistic than it was. You can still ambush a tank with an infantry squad (10 men) if they are in cover or dugged in favorable terrain (and you buttoned the target with suppressing fire (that's what you did, right?)). Plus, you can tweak the Searching value to your convenience (about 60/70% imho). A buttoned tank is still blind but if the hatches are wide open and the commander is on the look out... your men get what they would receive in real life. It seems more realistic to be harder to hide 10 men or a firing mortar in the open at 0/50 meters! :o) Small sneaking teams like AT infantry are still hard to spot for a buttoned tank. To the contrary of you, I find the 8.4 much more enjoyable to play with. Infantry is still great at doing what it's meant for, occupying and defending terrain, ambushing and scouting. Tanks find back the place they used to occupy as moving artillery. Combined arms strategies are back for good and we hopefully get rid of these invisible poping smoke nasties :o)

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/18/2005 1:21:58 PM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Well the fact is troops did do it in WW2
Tanks found the going very difficult when in poor terrain in the forrests of Finland, streets of Stalingrad and during the night at Kursk. Moving one hex is not just strolling up to a tank, the manual says that it is cautious movement that offers benefits in concealment and defence and besides troops do already suffer a penalty when moving to assault a tank. It was never easy in previous versions . I see no reason why experienced troops should always cop against amateur tank crews in that kind of terrain. Any way thats my opinion and it seems I'm in the minority. Troops in 8.4 are dominated by tanks, motorcycles & even cavalry no matter the conditions of combat. Even the MGs hit them now (which i like).

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Post #: 15
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/18/2005 1:35:22 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

Well the fact is troops did do it in WW2
Tanks found the going very difficult when in poor terrain in the forrests of Finland, streets of Stalingrad and during the night at Kursk. Moving one hex is not just strolling up to a tank, the manual says that it is cautious movement that offers benefits in concealment and defence and besides troops do already suffer a penalty when moving to assault a tank. It was never easy in previous versions . I see no reason why experienced troops should always cop against amateur tank crews in that kind of terrain. Any way thats my opinion and it seems I'm in the minority. Troops in 8.4 are dominated by tanks, motorcycles & even cavalry no matter the conditions of combat. Even the MGs hit them now (which i like).


Keep in the the Manual is referring to the general situation. Single hex moves do not impart invisibility.

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Post #: 16
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/18/2005 2:57:16 PM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		Incorrect Warrior
The manual is talking about "the general situation", it refers to infantry

Quote "Cautious Movement : Infantry units gain a defensive bonus if they only move one hex in a turn they are fired upon. They are also less likely to be spotted if they move slowly".
Quote " Your chances of spotting him (the enemy) depend on factors such as experience. terrain and weather".
Quote " Spotting ability has been reduced for turreted vehicles and slashed even more for non turreted vehicles".

I said nothing about imparting invisibility so dont put your words in my mouth. I merely point out that suddenly all these factors are meaningless. why ?
I thought tanks had tiny directional veiwing slits and did not favour forest and town fighting. Face it, this new spotting routine breaks all the rules of tank warfare. And oh yes guys cutting the searching value has no effect with adjacent units. buttoned units fire back most often. Retreating tanks suddenly bounce back when assaulted and shoot.
Apart from this insanity i like the other changes in 8.4 a lot but this is ridiculous.

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Post #: 17
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/18/2005 11:14:24 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I was able to successfully assault a buttoned/routed KV on the 2nd try with a good exp platoon of Ger Infantry.

Suppression is key.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 3:49:04 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however

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Post #: 19
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 4:22:56 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Suppression is key.


That can't be underscored enough: SUPPRESSION IS KEY.

The same thing goes for bunkers: fire everything you have at them, even when you know it's not going to do any damage; if it gets you to close assault range, it's worth it.

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 5:34:34 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however


everyone may have to adjust the "search" preference to there own likes and dislikes.
quoting the patch fixes list that was posted

3) "Made it a bit easier to spot enemy units, especially at range one of zero."



< Message edited by Alby -- 7/20/2005 5:35:26 PM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 5:51:19 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however


Not sure to be honest. My own tactics here havn't really changed. I always try to fully suppress a tank before slipping in an INF unit to assault. Changes or no changes, my results are still pretty much the same. The change from what i've heard will only make said tactics that much more manditory.




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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 6:02:40 PM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		I tried to adjust searching right down for the tank side to about 60 when i tested and i got an even more unusual result. infantry running at full speed at tanks in the remained unspotted but troops in the forest creep up one hex and whammo. Tank spins around on one hex and belts comers from all sides... in a forest !
Heres the issue. If you dont have artillery a tank in the forest simply cant be suppressed because it cannot be approached but armour in the open can be (by mgs etc) and then assaulted.
The result = Tanks in the forest are now more formidable than tanks in open terrain. Does this not break every rule of tank warfare as i previously stated people
or am i just crazy ?

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 6:05:27 PM   
soldier

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		infantry running at full speed at tanks in the open remained unspotted to 2 hexes but troops in the forest creep up one hex and whammo
i meant to say

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Post #: 24
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 6:52:01 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		alot could depend on the experience level of the assualter and the tank they are assualting...dont forget..

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 7:49:11 PM   
Svennemir

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 11/2/2001
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		[whoops, wrong thread somehow]

< Message edited by Svennemir -- 7/20/2005 7:50:11 PM >

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 8:27:52 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I am suppressing the tanks, what was trying to state was that unless its in a retreat mode then my troops get hit no matter what the terrain. This is mainly against the Russian's mind you in 1943.

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Post #: 27
RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 9:01:19 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		odd. Not happening to me.


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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 9:43:52 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		then it must be a communist plot

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RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? - 7/20/2005 10:05:03 PM   
Major_Johnson

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 6/29/2000
From: Beach Haven, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		If I'm ever in a situation where I have to use infantry to assault tanks, "normally" I'm losing, so I do my best to position the infantry (or whatever) so that the tank will run into it, thus triggering the assault mechanism. Also, try to attack with multiple units, and if possible from different directions. It is possible to divert the attention of the tank else where so that your infantry can get to within that 1 hex range. But a lot of "what if's" can be applied here.

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