assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (Full Version)

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soldier -> assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/14/2005 10:13:14 AM)

It seems much harder for troops to assaut tanks in 8.4. Even with more experience, forest terrain, reduced searching and troop toughness increased infantry just cannot sneak up on armour anymore even from one hex. The tanks spot them from point blank and blow them away. Far from making infantry a more important or powerful force on the field, 8.4 unfortunately seems to give tanks an even greater advantage over the poor foot sloggers.



soldier -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/14/2005 11:38:27 AM)

geez, you cant even catch an elephant unaware. you can run full speed to within 2 hexes and remain unspotted but creep forward one hex next turn and your toast. So much for the brave tank hunters of Kursk



KNomad -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/14/2005 11:43:06 AM)

Say it ain't so .... squad assaults are my favorite part of the game. [X(]

Tips for assaulting armor:
Suppress the target first if able.
Turn squad weapons off & set range to 0 before advancing on target.



Baneman -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/14/2005 12:10:13 PM)

Well, that's good to hear - you have no idea how angry I would get when my opponents' sniper or bailed-crew [X(] would successfully assault a PzIVG [X(]

Btw - is the use of bailed-crew as spotters in PBEM regarded as "gamey" ? I always try to get mine "out of Dodge" as if IRL, but I notice that my opponents ( who admittedly, whip my @ss [&o] ) leave them hanging around and even attack with them.

Cheers



soldier -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/14/2005 12:55:50 PM)

Actually Baneman your opponents will be pleased to know that they can go on assaulting with snipers as that bug is unfixed. In fact under the new spotting routines snipers are the only foot unit that can sucessfully sneak up and assault armour. Proper infantry squads with molotovs, tankmines and satchel charges get an 88 in the face everytime [:@]



Warrior -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/14/2005 1:21:49 PM)

If you can rout the tank first, you'll have a chance. Other than that, be prepared to sacrifice some of your boys to get the job done.



Alby -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/14/2005 6:08:13 PM)

Yes Buttoned or Routed tanks can be assualted much easier.



KG Erwin -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/15/2005 12:58:19 AM)

Why not drop smoke in front of your tank-killer team (assuming they have smoke grenades) in the turn prior to moving adjacent/close assault? Wouldn't this be a prudent move? If the assault fails, you have the smoke to cover your retreat (that is, IF your assault unit survives).



Major Destruction -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/15/2005 6:50:23 AM)

I drove a t-28 loaded with engineers into a Finnish squad and lost the engineers, wiped out and then the finnish squad assaulted the tank and destroyed it.

If infantry is this good against tanks who needs anti-tank guns?



Warrior -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/15/2005 1:16:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Major Destruction

I drove a t-28 loaded with engineers into a Finnish squad and lost the engineers, wiped out and then the finnish squad assaulted the tank and destroyed it.

If infantry is this good against tanks who needs anti-tank guns?


Probably just because they were Finns, fearsome opponents. That reminds me I haven't done a Finn scenario lately. Hmmm.



VikingNo2 -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/16/2005 6:40:52 PM)

I have noticed the same thing now that I have played a couple more games, its very hard to sneak up on a tank



Alby -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/16/2005 7:26:58 PM)

I think this adds to realism...
you need to button the tank first....instead off just strolling up to it and blowing it up.. [:)]



Wild Bill -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/18/2005 4:06:16 AM)

You guys sound like professional tank killers. All suggestions noted. I keep visualizing the situation. A huge Tiger tank and I'm gonna creep up on it, calmly place sticky bombs, or whatever I have at hand...shades of SPR!

I'll do it in a game. That is the ONLY place [X(] I'll do it.

WB



Gloo -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/18/2005 12:41:29 PM)

quote:

It seems much harder for troops to assaut tanks in 8.4...


I disagree with that. Seems to me much more realistic than it was. You can still ambush a tank with an infantry squad (10 men) if they are in cover or dugged in favorable terrain (and you buttoned the target with suppressing fire (that's what you did, right?)). Plus, you can tweak the Searching value to your convenience (about 60/70% imho). A buttoned tank is still blind but if the hatches are wide open and the commander is on the look out... your men get what they would receive in real life. It seems more realistic to be harder to hide 10 men or a firing mortar in the open at 0/50 meters! :o) Small sneaking teams like AT infantry are still hard to spot for a buttoned tank. To the contrary of you, I find the 8.4 much more enjoyable to play with. Infantry is still great at doing what it's meant for, occupying and defending terrain, ambushing and scouting. Tanks find back the place they used to occupy as moving artillery. Combined arms strategies are back for good and we hopefully get rid of these invisible poping smoke nasties :o)



soldier -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/18/2005 1:21:58 PM)

Well the fact is troops did do it in WW2
Tanks found the going very difficult when in poor terrain in the forrests of Finland, streets of Stalingrad and during the night at Kursk. Moving one hex is not just strolling up to a tank, the manual says that it is cautious movement that offers benefits in concealment and defence and besides troops do already suffer a penalty when moving to assault a tank. It was never easy in previous versions [8|]. I see no reason why experienced troops should always cop against amateur tank crews in that kind of terrain. Any way thats my opinion and it seems I'm in the minority. Troops in 8.4 are dominated by tanks, motorcycles & even cavalry no matter the conditions of combat. Even the MGs hit them now (which i like).



Warrior -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/18/2005 1:35:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

Well the fact is troops did do it in WW2
Tanks found the going very difficult when in poor terrain in the forrests of Finland, streets of Stalingrad and during the night at Kursk. Moving one hex is not just strolling up to a tank, the manual says that it is cautious movement that offers benefits in concealment and defence and besides troops do already suffer a penalty when moving to assault a tank. It was never easy in previous versions [8|]. I see no reason why experienced troops should always cop against amateur tank crews in that kind of terrain. Any way thats my opinion and it seems I'm in the minority. Troops in 8.4 are dominated by tanks, motorcycles & even cavalry no matter the conditions of combat. Even the MGs hit them now (which i like).


Keep in the the Manual is referring to the general situation. Single hex moves do not impart invisibility.



soldier -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/18/2005 2:57:16 PM)

Incorrect Warrior
The manual is talking about "the general situation", it refers to infantry

Quote "Cautious Movement : Infantry units gain a defensive bonus if they only move one hex in a turn they are fired upon. They are also less likely to be spotted if they move slowly".
Quote " Your chances of spotting him (the enemy) depend on factors such as experience. terrain and weather".
Quote " Spotting ability has been reduced for turreted vehicles and slashed even more for non turreted vehicles".

I said nothing about imparting invisibility so dont put your words in my mouth. I merely point out that suddenly all these factors are meaningless. why ?
I thought tanks had tiny directional veiwing slits and did not favour forest and town fighting. Face it, this new spotting routine breaks all the rules of tank warfare. And oh yes guys cutting the searching value has no effect with adjacent units. buttoned units fire back most often. Retreating tanks suddenly bounce back when assaulted and shoot.
Apart from this insanity i like the other changes in 8.4 a lot but this is ridiculous.



Nikademus -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/18/2005 11:14:24 PM)

I was able to successfully assault a buttoned/routed KV on the 2nd try with a good exp platoon of Ger Infantry.

Suppression is key.



VikingNo2 -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 3:49:04 PM)

Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however



Terminus -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 4:22:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Suppression is key.


That can't be underscored enough: SUPPRESSION IS KEY.

The same thing goes for bunkers: fire everything you have at them, even when you know it's not going to do any damage; if it gets you to close assault range, it's worth it.



Alby -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 5:34:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however


everyone may have to adjust the "search" preference to there own likes and dislikes.
quoting the patch fixes list that was posted

3) "Made it a bit easier to spot enemy units, especially at range one of zero."




Nikademus -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 5:51:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VikingNo2

Just a question what was changed to make the tanks spot the infantry so much better, so far it seems that a tank has to be in retreat mode or better to get assaulted. Or is it everything can spot better with in one hex? Still working/refining my tactics however


Not sure to be honest. My own tactics here havn't really changed. I always try to fully suppress a tank before slipping in an INF unit to assault. Changes or no changes, my results are still pretty much the same. The change from what i've heard will only make said tactics that much more manditory.





soldier -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 6:02:40 PM)

I tried to adjust searching right down for the tank side to about 60 when i tested and i got an even more unusual result. infantry running at full speed at tanks in the remained unspotted but troops in the forest creep up one hex and whammo. Tank spins around on one hex and belts comers from all sides... in a forest !
Heres the issue. If you dont have artillery a tank in the forest simply cant be suppressed because it cannot be approached but armour in the open can be (by mgs etc) and then assaulted.
The result = Tanks in the forest are now more formidable than tanks in open terrain. Does this not break every rule of tank warfare as i previously stated people
or am i just crazy ? [&:]



soldier -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 6:05:27 PM)

infantry running at full speed at tanks in the open remained unspotted to 2 hexes but troops in the forest creep up one hex and whammo
i meant to say



Alby -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 6:52:01 PM)

alot could depend on the experience level of the assualter and the tank they are assualting...dont forget..[:)]



Svennemir -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 7:49:11 PM)

[whoops, wrong thread somehow]



VikingNo2 -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 8:27:52 PM)

I am suppressing the tanks, what was trying to state was that unless its in a retreat mode then my troops get hit no matter what the terrain. This is mainly against the Russian's mind you in 1943.



Nikademus -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 9:01:19 PM)

odd. Not happening to me.



VikingNo2 -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 9:43:52 PM)

then it must be a communist plot[8|]



Major_Johnson -> RE: assaulting tanks in 8.4 ? (7/20/2005 10:05:03 PM)

If I'm ever in a situation where I have to use infantry to assault tanks, "normally" I'm losing, so I do my best to position the infantry (or whatever) so that the tank will run into it, thus triggering the assault mechanism. Also, try to attack with multiple units, and if possible from different directions. It is possible to divert the attention of the tank else where so that your infantry can get to within that 1 hex range. But a lot of "what if's" can be applied here.



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