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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 6:24:55 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy




English Lurker......

Enter the Unreal Tournament 2004 forum and prepare to eat a Rocket.




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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 6:26:14 PM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I think my biggest problem is, that I´ve got the same opinion like Ron Saueracker! Every thread I´ve read so far in a year where Ron posted, he was mowed down by 10 others.

Nikademus:

A picture is worth a thousand words :


This is the kind of crap which has kept the game so innaccurate on so many levels. Those who want to fix the game vs those who like to feather their nest and solidify their place for some future project. Result...mediocrity. Oh well...


Feather...nest? I thought that judges offered Beta service as an alternative to hard time. That's the reason the prisons are full and the Betas are short handed.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 6:26:45 PM   
Terminus


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Excuse me, while I go open the door for the mods to come in and close down this namecalling fest!

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 6:40:23 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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Shh. If we're quiet the mods may turn a blind eye. Actually, how do you turn a blind eye and what the point if its blind you don't need to turn it?

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Post #: 124
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 6:41:17 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy




English Lurker......

Enter the Unreal Tournament 2004 forum and prepare to eat a Rocket.





Muhahahaha. Foolish Nikademon. Enter thy world and get Fragged. Err doesn't sound right on this forum

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 6:47:48 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Shh. If we're quiet the mods may turn a blind eye. Actually, how do you turn a blind eye and what the point if its blind you don't need to turn it?


Actually this has (supposedly) a naval origin. IIRC, at the Battle of Copenhagen (?), someone told Nelson that there was a signal flying for him to withdraw (this was when Nelson wasn't the supreme naval commander). Anyway, Nelson, who didn't want to withdraw, put a telescope up to his blind (and patched eye), trained it on the flagship, and replied that he saw no such signal, and continued the fight (which he won...)

Now how this will translate to YOU and your CRT, i am not sure...

EDIT - urk - i am telling this to an Englishman? Coals to Newcastle, i think!

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 7/19/2005 6:48:41 PM >

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 6:52:01 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

[
Muhahahaha. Foolish Nikademon. Enter thy world and get Fragged. Err doesn't sound right on this forum


Scratch Rocket......Flak shell. Giblets!!!!!!!!




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Post #: 127
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 7:10:05 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


Well, ya asked for it with the shot.



And what shot was that Ron? If Castor wants to think that people disagree with him because he's an ersatz you and people with contrary opinions are simply interested in mowing him down as a result, thats his right. Me, such a silly statement deserves only a

Kind of like your comment about WitP being "medicore"






The way I read his post (the grammar is not 100% so it hurts his intent on a few occasions) was that because he was critical, he immediately got swarmed by the "warm and fuzzies". Because he mentioned me, your comment came across as well, pretty darn durogatory.

I replied with my broadside.

KaBlammo! TM

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 7:16:56 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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What's that bit from Dr. Strangelove?

"You can't fight in here...this is the War Room."

Kinda applies, eh?

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 7:30:23 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


The way I read his post (the grammar is not 100% so it hurts his intent on a few occasions) was that because he was critical, he immediately got swarmed by the "warm and fuzzies". Because he mentioned me, your comment came across as well, pretty darn durogatory.



is pretty darned derogatory....

ok.





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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 7:50:22 PM   
Panzer76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.


I didn't notice that the original poster's CVs were struck by FOUR torpedos or cought with fuelled airplanes, and bombs lying all over their deck. Must be my bad.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 8:28:01 PM   
Terminus


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TAXI!!! The Copacabana, and step on it...

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 8:35:12 PM   
Nikademus


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Yez...go away u svine!!!!

or I will Taunt you aGAIN!



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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 9:47:54 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


The way I read his post (the grammar is not 100% so it hurts his intent on a few occasions) was that because he was critical, he immediately got swarmed by the "warm and fuzzies". Because he mentioned me, your comment came across as well, pretty darn durogatory.



is pretty darned derogatory....

ok.






Pooping on my Canuck accent now? Luvly. Since we are in grade school at the moment, I'll meet ya by the monkey bars at recess.


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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 9:57:13 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer76


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.


I didn't notice that the original poster's CVs were struck by FOUR torpedos or cought with fuelled airplanes, and bombs lying all over their deck. Must be my bad.



Other than at Midway, the other 5 or 6 real life CV's that were sunk with comparable damage didn't either. In addition, were bombs strewn all over the place and planes refeuling on the 4th Jap CV at Midway?

HIRYU
quote:

Sunk: At 1703 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Four direct bomb hits received, all closely spaced. The first three landed in a row on the fore part of the flight deck, the blast of the nearest flinging the forward elevator bodily against the island. The fourth bomb struck amidships beside the bridge. The hits set off furious fires and induced explosions among aircraft being scheduled to launch in an hour. Though initially able to maintain 28 knots and withdraw to the west, the fires gain steadily. At 2123 goes dead in the water, and KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO detached to stand by. At 0158 a major induced explosion occurs, and hope is lost. Abandon ship is ordered, and ComCarDiv 2 Yamaguchi gives a farewell speech, and remains aboard with Captain Kaku Tomeo. Yamaguchi orders the carrier scuttled, and after survivors removed by KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO, at 0510 scuttled by MAKIGUMO with one torpedo in the starboard side opposite the bridge. (Scuttling position 31-38'N, 178-51'W). The MAKIGUMO then withdraws without confirming the sinking. Therafter, at 0630 a plane from HOSHO finds and photographs HIRYU still afloat and with survivors clearly seen still aboard. The destroyer TANIKAZE is dispatched, but before she arrives, the carrier at 0912 upended and sank by the bow in a position between 240 - 260 miles NW from Midway. Of the 70 men marooned aboard, only thirty-five are eventually rescued by the U.S. Navy, including her Chief Engineer. A total of 418 officers, petty officers and men are listed as lost with the carrier, but this does not appear to exclude the POWs, so the actual figure would be 383 lost.


My only point from all of these historical examples was that Japanese CV's appear to be extremely vunerable. The game depicts this through flooding damage. Perhaps it was easier to code than providing code to make Japanese CV's more suseptible to Critical hits as appears to be the historical case. IRL of the 20 or so Japanese CV's at least 10 ended up sunk after receiving damage similar in nature to CastorTroy's ships.

< Message edited by treespider -- 7/19/2005 10:06:22 PM >


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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 10:09:23 PM   
treespider


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Here's number 11 albeit a CVE

TAIYO
quote:

18 August 1944:
Sunk: Off Cape Bolinao, Luzon, at 2222 struck in starboard quarter by one torpedo of two fired by USS RASHER. The torpedo struck the ship's aft av-gas tank which exploded violently, and the carrier was engulfed in explosions and fires. At few minutes later an oil tank amidships in the port side exploded with tremendous force, and it was thought by some to be another torpedo hit. Captain Sugino ordered abandon ship, but soon after, TAIYO was wracked by another final huge explosion and sank at 2248 in position 18-10'N, 120-22'E. Because of the fire and speed of sinking, most of her crew were lost. Approximately 747 officers and men perished; but by some miracle, Captain Sugino Shuichi was among the less than 100 survivors.



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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 10:09:56 PM   
Bradley7735


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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzer76


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider
I just listed NINE Japanese CV's sunk with comparable damge to the original post.


I didn't notice that the original poster's CVs were struck by FOUR torpedos or cought with fuelled airplanes, and bombs lying all over their deck. Must be my bad.



Other than at Midway, the other 5 or 6 real life CV's that were sunk with comparable damage didn't either. In addition, were bombs strewn all over the place and planes refeuling on the 4th Jap CV at Midway?

HIRYU
quote:

Sunk: At 1703 while preparing to launch strike against enemy carrier, attacked by thirteen enemy dive bombers. Four direct bomb hits received, all closely spaced. The first three landed in a row on the fore part of the flight deck, the blast of the nearest flinging the forward elevator bodily against the island. The fourth bomb struck amidships beside the bridge. The hits set off furious fires and induced explosions among aircraft being scheduled to launch in an hour. Though initially able to maintain 28 knots and withdraw to the west, the fires gain steadily. At 2123 goes dead in the water, and KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO detached to stand by. At 0158 a major induced explosion occurs, and hope is lost. Abandon ship is ordered, and ComCarDiv 2 Yamaguchi gives a farewell speech, and remains aboard with Captain Kaku Tomeo. Yamaguchi orders the carrier scuttled, and after survivors removed by KAZAGUMO and MAKIGUMO, at 0510 scuttled by MAKIGUMO with one torpedo in the starboard side opposite the bridge. (Scuttling position 31-38'N, 178-51'W). The MAKIGUMO then withdraws without confirming the sinking. Therafter, at 0630 a plane from HOSHO finds and photographs HIRYU still afloat and with survivors clearly seen still aboard. The destroyer TANIKAZE is dispatched, but before she arrives, the carrier at 0912 upended and sank by the bow in a position between 240 - 260 miles NW from Midway. Of the 70 men marooned aboard, only thirty-five are eventually rescued by the U.S. Navy, including her Chief Engineer. A total of 418 officers, petty officers and men are listed as lost with the carrier, but this does not appear to exclude the POWs, so the actual figure would be 383 lost.


My only point from all of these historical examples was that Japanese CV's appear to be extremely vunerable. The game depicts this through flooding damage. Perhaps it was easier to code than providing code to make Japanese CV's more suseptible to Critical hits as appears to be the historical case.


There are some recent books written that state the other 3 CV's at midway also didn't have a flight deck load of planes and bombs. They were down in the hangar deck.

Treespider: You can add a 10th CV to your list. The USS Princeton. Sunk by 1 250 kg bomb. (probably 250kg) How many folks would scream if this happened in WITP? (Japanese or allied example)

And, I believe the Zuiho came pretty close to sinking from 2 500lb hits. I'm not real sure, but I think they had a hard time getting her back to port. These weren't the big bombs, but the ones that the SBD scouts flew with.

in one of my AI games, I hit Zuikaku with 11 1,000 lb bombs. She was near Gili Gili. She must have made it to Rabaul and survived. Of course that's with FOW, so maybe it was 6 or 7 true hits. Who knows. But, I was upset when she didn't show up on the sunk ship list after 90 days. Two years later, she came back out to play and got propmtly sunk, though.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 10:19:11 PM   
treespider


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Of course there are examples like these with massive amounts of damage or where the CV survived.

CHUYO

4 December 1943:
At 0010, hit by in port bow magazine by torpedo from USS SAILFISH (SS-192) in position: 32-30'N, 143-40'E. Though magazine does not catch fire, the bow plates are torn and the forward part of the flight deck collapses. But the carrier is able to maintain headway, and in order to proceed, Captain Tomasaborou reverses direction and begins to steam backwards towards Yokosuka at half-speed. But at 0555 is hit again by two torpedoes in the port engine room in a second attack. Ship is stopped dead in the water and unable to navigate - position: 31-55'N, 143-40'E. Destroyer URAKAZE and cruiser MAYA come to assist, and air cover from the homeland arrives overhead at dawn. Despite this aid, at 0942 the ship is again attacked and hit by one or two torpedoes in the port side. Flooding massively, she now quickly rolled to port and plunged by the bow at 0948. As a result, loss of life was very heavy: Captain Tomasaborou and 1,250 officers, men, and passengers went down with the ship. Among the lost were twenty of the U.S. POWs. Only one of the POWs survived to be rescued among the mere 161 survivors found by SAZANAMI and URAKAZE.

SHOHO

7 May 1942:
Battle of the Coral Sea
Sunk: At 0755, while attempting to cover the Tulagi and Port Moresby invasion forces, attacked by carrier torpedo and dive-bombers from USS LEXINGTON and USS YORKTOWN. The light carrier is overwhelmed, and struck by a reported total of seven torpedoes and thirteen bombs in the space of twenty-three minutes. At 0835 she sinks stern first on an even keel, taking down with her 631 officers, petty officers and men. Captain Izawa Ishinosuke is among the fortunate 131 officers and men and seventy-two wounded rescued by the SAZANAMI.

SHINYO
17 November 1944:
0800: SHINYO and HI-81 get underway for the Shushan Islands near Shanghai, and SHINYO launches aircraft for patrol throughout the day. At 1215: One enemy B-29 sighted when in position 34-08'N, 125-39'E. SHINYO's Kates are frustrated and unable to climb to destroy the snooper. But no enemy activity ensues and the day passes without incident. However, at 1815 just as SHINYO is landing her last airborne patrol, directly in front of her the MAYASAN MARU is torpedoed and sunk by USS PICUDA (SS-382) with the loss of over 3,000 men.
2303: When about 200 kilometers southwest of Saishu Island, struck by a (claimed) total of four torpedoes in the starboard side of six fired by USS SPADEFISH (SS-411). The submarine had brazenly attacked on the surface, and remained so throughout. The first torpedo hit the stern, instantly disabling the turbo-electric motors and stopping the carrier. The impact detonated the poorly protected av-gas tanks and caused a tremendous explosion and fire. Other hits followed, and SHINYO burst into a blazing inferno and began to list rapidly to starboard and settle aft. She fell out of the convoy formation at once and contact with her was lost, though escort destroyer KASHI counter-attacked the submarine with uncertain results. (It also appears that SPADEFISH's second salvo of four-stern tubes damaged the large SHINSHU MARU to starboard of the SHINYO).
Sunk: Within a few short time (see Discussion Note) her bow reared skyward and she sank stern-first, coming to rest in 23 fathoms with flaming bow still projecting from the water. Position was 32-59'N, 123-38'E. Due to inferno and rapidity of her sinking, and delay in rescue, casualties were very high. Apparently fewer than 200 survivors were rescued, and Rear Admiral Ishii and more than 700 petty officers and men were lost.
18 November 1944:
It appears that no one immediately went to the assistence of the SHINYO or attempted rescue. First to respond was the Commander of MI-27 convoy aboard CD No. 134 who at 0220 ordered CD No. 61 to locate and assist the SHINYO. At 0315 9,000 meters south of the sinking TSUSHIMA attacked and depth charged with fifteen depth-charges an enemy submarine, which on basis of fuel oil and other debris, was claimed sunk in a report at 0426. TSUSHIMA was then heading to catch up with the convoy, but at 0800 Rear Admiral Sato aboard ETOROFU ordered the TSUSHIMA to suspend her course to rejoin and proceed to the "scene of the disaster to the SHINYO-CVE, and take on board survivors". From this, it seems that SHINYO survivors were not rescued till late morning, and the rescuing ships were TSUSHIMA and CD No.61.

CHIYODA
25 October 1944:
Crippled by four aerial bomb hits that leave ship dead in the water with 13 degree list to starboard. ComCarDiv 4 in HYUGA attempts to tow, but this is prevented by a third attack. The ISUZU is ordered to remove the crew, but this is also frustrated due to continuing danger from air surface attack. After three attempts, ISUZU is forced to retreat with enemy surface forces in sight and CHIYODA under gunfire. Sunk: At 1624 attacked by gunfire of U.S. Navy TG 38.3 (four cruisers, nine destroyers) surface forces, and stubbornly returns fire. At 1655 - hit repeatedly - she rolled onto her port beam ends and sank. No survivors are permitted to be rescued, and apparently Captain Jyo Eiichiro and the entire crew of 1,470 officers and men perish. (Position 18 - 37' N, 126 - 45 E')

SHOKAKU
19 June 1944:
Sunk: At 1122 Torpedoed by USS CAVALLA while landing patrol aircraft. Hit by three, possibly four torpedoes in the starboard side, forward and amidships. Large fuel fires are ignited in the hangar and the ship begins to settle by the bow. Though damage control initially hoped to save her, the flooding forward and the fires intensify in the following hours. At 1408 the fires detonate an aerial bomb on the hangar, setting off volatile gases from a cracked forward tank. Blown apart, the carrier upends and sinks at 1410. Due to this sudden disaster, loss of life is very heavy: fifty-eight officers, 830 petty officers and men, in addition to 376 members of Air Group 601 and eight civilians share the fate of the vessel; a total of 1,272 dead. Light cruiser YAHAGI and destroyers URAKAZE, WAKATSUKI, and HATSUZUKI rescued Captain Matsubara Hiroshi among 570 other survivors.

ZUIKAKU
24 October 1944 Battle off Cape Engano:
Sunk: Hit by seven torpedoes and nine bombs. Abandon ship ordered at 1358 and flag lowered. Slowly rolled over to port and sank bow first at 1414 (Position 19'20 N, 125'15 E). Captain Kaizuka Takeo, forty-eight officers and 794 petty officers and men lost with the carrier. However, forty-seven officers and 815 pettyofficers and men are rescued by WAKATSUKI and KUWA.

AMAGI AND KATSURAGI
28 July 1945:
Again Mitsuko-jima is bombed during heavy air raid on Kure from TF 38. Though AMAGI is again heavily targeted, this time KATSURAGI undergoes her share of concentrated. At first she again escapes damage, even shooting down a plane that attacked AMAGI, but in the afternoon attack the carrier suffered a devastating direct hit by a massive 2,000 pound bomb. (See Note 1). This bomb hurtled into the flight deck from starboard, just behind the island, striking at a point just to port of the centerline and behind the forward elevator. Crashing thru the flight deck, it failed to reach the upper hangar deck, instead detonating after eight feet in the middle of the open space of the enclosed hangar. The confined blast and resultant pressure wave was incredible. A 20-foot section of the port hangar wall was blown out, the whole flight deck between the elevators bulged up and buckled (in similar fashion as on AMAGI, or on RYUHO on 19 March) and at the center of the blast a 10 meter section the width of the flight deck out was blown right out and fling over to starboard to land across the outboard stacks. Both elevators were rendered inoperable jammed in the `up' position at the time, and the upper hangar deck under the detonation point was actually pushed down some three feet. The walls of the upper hangar deck are bulged and perforated. The bridge is sprayed by fragments and Executive Officer Captain Izumi Fukujiro and twelve other men are killed with another twelve wounded. Somewhat surprisingly, no fire broke out, the strength deck had held, and no underwater damage is suffered. KATSURAGI remains seaworthy.







< Message edited by treespider -- 7/19/2005 10:23:31 PM >


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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 10:27:11 PM   
rtrapasso


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.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 7/19/2005 10:28:16 PM >

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 10:37:20 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

For example, i've often had ships "roll" very favorable when struck by a torpedo (i.e. small amount of SYS and FLT damage) I interpret such a result as the torp having struck in a non critical area, such as a bow hit.

I've read accounts where a torpedo hit a ship right on a substantial beam (I-beam or what not) and suffered much less damage as a result (versus a complete penetration). That's how I tend to think of teh example you cite here.

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 10:43:45 PM   
treespider


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For those who do not already know...the info on the japanese CV's comes from this most excellent website..

http://www.combinedfleet.com/cvlist.htm

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RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/19/2005 10:56:34 PM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

There are some recent books written that state the other 3 CV's at midway also didn't have a flight deck load of planes and bombs. They were down in the hangar deck.


Doesn't really matter whether the aircraft with stacks of bombs and torpedoes were on the flight deck or hangar deck. A GP bomb dropped from 2000 feet is going to penetrate the flight deck the vast majority of the time and explode either in the hangar deck or lower. An AP bomb would most likely explode below the hangar deck, assuming penetration of the hangar deck armor.

So in this case, a GP bomb, exploding in a somewhat confined space (I.E. the hangar deck) with large numbers of fueled aircraft, fuel hoses and explosives lying about is probably going to see large fires and explosions as a result. The Hiryu had her elevator blown against the island, indicating a catastrophic explosion from within the hangar spaces which probably ruptured the hangar deck. This rupture would have allowed raw and burning fuel to flow below decks, further spreading fires and explosive potentiality.

If the explosions were on the flight deck, most of the explosive force would be vented upward and sideways. A good example would be the carrier fires experienced by the Forrestal and Enterprise during the 60s. Most of the explosive forces vented upwards. Imagine if those explosions had occurred on the hangar decks. I think there would have been reasonable chance of losing one those ships.

Chez



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Post #: 142
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 1:01:47 AM   
Hornblower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

Anyone really think the IJN could have accomplished the same?


The Mogami at Midway for one. Shokaku on a number of occasions. Aoba after Cape Esperance. Point is every Navy had its good and bad moments. Sure Japan had some bad examples, but Allies have many bad as well. USN:Good-Let's use your CL Houston example. Bad-well CV 2 Lexington comes to mind. RN: Good-CV Illustrious. Bad- CV Ark Royal. I don't think that the difference was so huge as is portrayed in the model.


I guess I should have read each posting first. I was confining my remarks to ships that had below the waterline damage. Your right about the Mogami, and the Lex was scuttled actually. My point was overall, sure we’d be able to find a IJN ship that took tremedos punishment but kept afloat, just like we could find a USN ship that sank from what we would think was minor damage- comparatively speaking. So yes, I guess were in agreement on that

Perhaps this spin my help. I’ve noticed in many of my readings that the flooding reaches the critical stage when there is no power to the pumps. The engine room for some reason – be it knocked out, abandoned, etc.- can’t supply the power to pumps. Perhaps that is what might be demonstrated in the game model??

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 143
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 1:31:02 AM   
Subchaser


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I did a little overview of IJN carrier damage control capabilities… for those who interested… actually only fire-fighting capabilities and equipment… may be I will lift more data later and comment flooding damage part of a puzzle too….

IJN firefighting systems before Midway.

Fire-protection curtains and bulkheads system

All IJN carriers, except Shinano, had enclosed hangars. Hangars were divided by fire-protection curtains and bulkheads, which were supposed to help to localize fires. Those curtains consisted of rock wool with asbestos covering on the sides, bulkheads consisted of 7-10mm armor plates which also were covered with asbestos. The bulkheads were installed on suitable places close to dangerous spaces, bulkheads could be vertically rolled up. They were guided in slots supported from the deck above and from the hangar deck and could be moved across the hangar from one side to the other. This was supposed to be done simultaneously with the bulkhead on the other side of the hangar so they together could form a complete bulkhead. By guiding bulkheads in slots aviation gas was prevented from spreading into adjacent compartments. With electromotor it was possible to close the bulkhead within 25 seconds. Usually there were 4-6 fire-protection deck sections. Both curtains and bulkheads had to be cooled down with water if they should able to fulfill their purposes for any noticeable length of time.

In general, this system was clumsy and unreliable, it could help to resolve a fire incident in port or during air operations, but could hardly help in combat, if in Coral Sea bulkheads and curtains on Shokaku helped to localize fires, at Midway it turned out to be a total failure, explosions destroyed electrics in the key areas and crew failed to manually close bulkheads because of the smoke and high temperature.

Co2 fire-fighting system

It was well-known before the war that water cannot effectively extinguish gasoline fires, especially in closed spaces such as IJN carriers hangars, and Co2 fire-fighting system was developed. Carbon dioxide has greater density than air and thus can smother a fire… theoretically. System was installed on all IJN carriers with exception of Hosho. Installations with Co2 equipment were mounted in the hangars, near aviation gas tanks, gasoline pumps, main gasoline pipetubes conjunction areas and in gas control rooms. This arrangement in principle consisted of Co2 canisters, 30kg each, stowed in several rows in the elevator pits and c&c system with perforated pipes that ran along the underside of the upper hangar deck. There were around 150 canisters in every installation aboard the ship, all parts of the system were connected by control pipes and rods with remote control stations located at the important places. When activated, compressed air operated valves opened one canister row after another in the activated installations, and dioxide reached pipes on the deck and in conjunction gasoline pipetubes areas.

System was thought to be very effective, but in reality also appeared to be a failure. The first problem was control of the functions of the c&c system, sometimes dioxide went out too fast, sometimes did not discharge at all, especially out of the lowest row of canisters. Second problem was extremely complicated remote control system, mishaps often occurred when valves leaked or self-triggered and dioxide suddenly discharged into the hangars. IJN lost quite a number of valuable personnel that way, even when everything was okay it always was unhealthy atmosphere in the hangars, during the warming-up procedures it was real hell and crew was forced to use gas masks. Third problem was the main one, and it was revealed only during combat damages suffered in 1942. Co2 system appeared to be practically useless when gas could stream out thru the vertical side-walls or the deck, pressure difference between burning deck and other compartment made this problem even worse, besides, there were no doubled perforated pipe lines and if the line was broken by the explosion, gas went down, accumulated in the lower compartments and caused numerous suffocation deaths, and it could be not just a needless loss of life, dioxide could kill repair parties below whose work was essential to prevent flooding, thus potentially this could cause a loss of a carrier.

IJN firefighting systems after Midway

Foam fire-fighting systems

Drawbacks of Co2 based systems became obvious after Midway and IJN started development of more effective fire-protection technologies. In august 42 Yokosuka naval arsenal began trials of foamite fire-fighting with installation constructed by Central Japanese chemical industry institute. It was the 1:1 scale copy of Shokaku class second aft hangar, where 2 written-off Kates had been placed, with 1000 gallons of fuel each. When Kates were ignited and foam sprayers started to work it became clear that the system was greatly superior to anything IJN had before. The system was not perfect however, there were problems with spray-width and low pressure. And in september Naval technical research institute had developed advanced version of the foam system. New foam was a mix of sodium bicarbonate, aluminum sulphate and of course… soapy water. It was tested on the same installation and results were very promising. New system had higher spray pressure and a better spray width, it also consumed less foamite. Already in october system was tested aboard Sharnhorst (former german liner later CVE Shinyo), and it proved to be effective again. In early November ’42 Vice admiral Mito commission recommended to install new system on all IJN carriers. On any carrier installed it was capable to produce enough foam to cover 75% of the hangar deck within 5 minutes, number and position of sprayers was different of course. Foam fire-fighting installations aboard the carriers were standardized and owing to the experience gained in Midway battle were introduced as quickly as possible on all remaining carriers and on those under construction. Naval research institute foam system later developed into extremely complicated system with 14 sub-systems, including smoke cooling installations, vacuum blockade system and even old Co2 system that was reworked for protection of enclosed compartments such as ammo storages. So I skip details here. Other critical Midway measures were:

Improved ventilation in low deck compartments.

With the introduction of foam fire-fighting systems some changes were likewise made concerning the ventilation in the engine and boilers rooms as well as arrangements of the emergency exits from those spaces. I must admit that this was not really any fire-protection measures, as one at first would believe, but it was damage control measures which could bring some dividends in combat damage situation.

Hitherto the ingoing air shafts for the engine and boiler room on IJN carriers had always been installed on the side opposite the funnel. Therefore if fire broke out in this area only hot air would be sucked in. Two of IJN carriers lost at Midway were badly damaged on the side where ventilation system was installed. Thereby not only hot air entered engine and boilers room but fire as well and the majority of the machinery personnel were suffocated since there were no emergency exits. In order to avoid such hassle it was made possible to switch the ingoing air from damaged side to undamaged. Consequently the ventilation system was changed so that ingoing air to engine/boilers rooms could be entered from both sides.

Improvement of hangar ventilation.

When enclosed space the size of a carrier hangar is filled with gasoline vapor, a fire will result and vapor will explode, and it will be catastrophically powerful explosion, ton of TNT equivalent. This happened to Lexington in 1942, carrier had well developed fire-fighting system but it did not help to prevent vapor explosion. IJN carriers at Midway also suffered heavily from gasoline vapor explosions. In order to avoid this accumulation of gasoline vapor the capacity of hangar ventilation was dramatically increased on all carriers in 1943-44. This was carried out by the following measures: increase of the number of fans, so that complete renewal of the air could be made at least 12 times per hour; arrangement for openings in the forward and aft sides of the hangar, so it would be possible to refresh air thanks to the speed of the ship; erection of a surface exposed to the wind made of canvas in front of the forward elevator so that the hangars could be ventilated via the elevator pit. However…all those measures did not provide IJN with 100% guarantee against the vapor explosions, Taiho is the best example.

Fire-retardant paint

The oil paint, which was used on IJN carriers prior 1943, contributed both to intensity and endurance of the fire. Because of this it was desirable to replace this paint with flameproof paint. Naval research institute tried several commercial examples but they turned out to be as flammable as any other paints. On the contrary experiments with proceeded favorably with the paint that had been used to cover the bulkheads of feed water tanks. It was “metal concrete” paint that prevented water penetration. The main ingredients were zinc (60%) and sodium silicate, later when zinc became deficient material, percentage dropped to 45%. Imagine the amount of paint needed to cover Shinano’s inner surfaces. New paint proved to be effective measure, it did not burn at all. Aboard the carriers completed in 1944 this paint was used at once and on the older carriers the oil-paint had to be scrapped off before the new paint could be applied. No yard was available for this job in 1944 and this had to be performed by the crews and they did the job as they returned from the operational areas.

Fire-protection measures in the crew compartments.

Before Midway battle fire protection measures within the crew spaces on IJN carriers consisted of fire retardant doors and non-combustible materials. Coral Sea and Midway showed that these measures were insufficient and it was necessary to do more. The views varied how this should be done from ship to ship. On Junyo, for example, whose equipment to a great extent originated from her basic design as a passenger ship some measures had already been taken before her commission. In general, measures were – wood panels were removed and linoleum covers had been pulled up (even in officers quarters, bridge and companies), cosmetic paints scrapped off everywhere, only sinto chapel compartments were left untouched, all furniture was thrown away, crew slept on canvas or carpets.

Damage control organization.

Officially it was the captain who was responsible for damage control aboard a carrier. However, in reality it always was second-in-command- commander (Fukucho) who performed this duty. After Midway battle damage control organization was slightly changed and the new post was introduced – Naimucho (usually translated as general affairs officers, don’t know why), officer responsible for damage control operations, it was supposed that new officers would recieve special training and would be able to perform their duties on a higher level, but only Shokaku, Taiho and Shinano had those officers and I suspect that they did not receive any additional training, there was the serious shortage of qualified personnel in any IJN branch at that time. So, as you can guess, many of the carriers listed in the posts above were victims of “wrong button” phenomena. Early in the war all Japanese problems were that way or another connected with poorly designed hardware, while seamen had adequate training, I can’t say that it was comparable to the training that USN skippers were getting but it wasn’t dramatically worse anyway.

After the Philippine sea battle damage control equipment and techniques were further improved. That all pushed IJN DC techniques to higher levels but… unfortunately, by that time not too many IJN carriers, were still in existence.

Ideally, I think, ability of a ship to survive battle damage should be connected to the crew experience (third line, day/night/damage control rating), and class/type of a ship… I hope it will be so in WitPII, in the game as it is now, I don’t know how anything can be improved without radical innovations here, unfortunately this is something we cannot hope for....


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(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 144
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 1:51:24 AM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Subchaser

In general, measures were – wood panels were removed and linoleum covers had been pulled up (even in officers quarters, bridge and companies), cosmetic paints scrapped off everywhere, only sinto chapel compartments were left untouched, all furniture was thrown away, crew slept on canvas or carpets.

Yikes!

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 145
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 1:52:15 AM   
Terminus


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Must have done wonders for crew morale...

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Post #: 146
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 9:38:36 AM   
Subchaser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Must have done wonders for crew morale...


They did not care much… especially officers… besides, it was japanese furniture… you know , not a big difference with or without it.

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Post #: 147
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 10:20:16 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

_GREAT_ info "Subchaser" - thanks !!!


Leo "Apollo11"

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(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 148
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 3:25:27 PM   
Speedysteve

 

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What happened to Princeton to make it sink with 1 x 250KG bomb? I've never seen that in game. Must be broken

Steven

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Post #: 149
RE: Japanese damage control! WTF*#?$ - 7/20/2005 4:33:59 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

What happened to Princeton to make it sink with 1 x 250KG bomb? I've never seen that in game. Must be broken

Steven


You can see that in game too! You just have to rename the ship: e.g. Ryuho!!

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 150
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