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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Spoilage in Japan

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Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 10:44:07 PM

Lord_Calidor

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I just recently thought about this. We all know that spoilage kills excess supplies & fuel, and we all know (Japanese player, at least) how quickly that stockpile of supplies on Home Islands seem to evaporate early in the game.
Could those two be connected? There are more than few undeveloped bases in Japan early on, and large stocks of supplies, so it could be responsible for supply vanishing.
Is there any sense in this? Or am I just overly optimistic in expanding and repairing factories...?

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 10:48:39 PM

Iridium

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To the best of my knowledge once the base is a lvl 10 anything there is no spoilage. No matter how much material there is sitting around.

It might be over expansion of your factories etc.

< Message edited by Iridium -- 8/2/2005 10:49:11 PM >

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 10:53:27 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium
To the best of my knowledge once the base is a lvl 10 anything there is no spoilage. No matter how much material there is sitting around.

That is correct.

(in reply to Iridium)

Post #: 3

RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 11:09:32 PM

dpstafford

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium
To the best of my knowledge once the base is a lvl 10 anything there is no spoilage. No matter how much material there is sitting around.

That is correct.

What about in inland base that has no port. And the airfield cannot go above level 9. Is there spoilage?

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 11:17:29 PM

Mike Solli

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Spoilage is the sum of the airfield and port, so in your case, yes there would be spoilage if the base airfield can't go above level 9. It's max level would be 248k for supply. If there was a port, it would be 82k for fuel.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 11:20:47 PM

Lord_Calidor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium

To the best of my knowledge once the base is a lvl 10 anything there is no spoilage. No matter how much material there is sitting around.

It might be over expansion of your factories etc.

I know that, but I wrote "undeveloped bases". Here are just a few, from the beginning of scen 15:
Gumma - base size (AF + port) 4
Matsuyama - 4
Kanazawa - 2
Hamamatsu - 2
Toyama - 2
Nagaoka - 2
Matsue - 2
Kyoto - 1
Asahigawa - 1

During the supply transfers, game engine likes to stockpile supplies in those small bases, so I suspect they are susceptable to spoilage.

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

(in reply to Iridium)

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 11:27:35 PM

Mike Solli

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Hmm, that does suck. I hadn't considered that. Here's the chart I downloaded from Spooky's webpage a while back.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 11:29:51 PM

dpstafford

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord_Calidor
I know that, but I wrote "undeveloped bases". Here are just a few, from the beginning of scen 15:
Gumma - base size (AF + port) 4
Matsuyama - 4
Kanazawa - 2
Hamamatsu - 2
Toyama - 2
Nagaoka - 2
Matsue - 2
Kyoto - 1
Asahigawa - 1

During the supply transfers, game engine likes to stockpile supplies in those small bases, so I suspect they are susceptable to spoilage.

You may be on to something. The automatic overland movement of supplies may be sending them to undersized bases. It might be wise to develop all bases to 5 + 5. And place minimal LCU/air groups at these undersized bases to reduces their supply requirements.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 11:33:04 PM

dpstafford

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Spoilage is the sum of the airfield and port, so in your case, yes there would be spoilage if the base airfield can't go above level 9. It's max level would be 248k for supply. If there was a port, it would be 82k for fuel.

This should be changed. An inland base should not suffer excess spoilage because it doesn't have a port. Simplest solution would be to keep the formula the same, but use the AF size twice for bases without ports.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/2/2005 11:37:12 PM

Mike Solli

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Now I can't wait to get home so I can see what the max port/airfield sizes are for the bases in Japan. I wonder what the cost would be to upgrade them to an acceptable level....

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Post #: 10

RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 12:17:10 AM

Lord_Calidor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Now I can't wait to get home so I can see what the max port/airfield sizes are for the bases in Japan. I wonder what the cost would be to upgrade them to an acceptable level....

I don't think the cost to expand them is primary concern Mike, but the time to do so. By the time you enlarge them enough not to cause any significant spoilage (size 5 should be enough for most lower-intensity bases, since it can support 80.000 supplies without spoilage) Japan would probably be very short on supplies, either due to spoiled, consumed or shipped out supplies.

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 11

RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 9:24:37 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord_Calidor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Now I can't wait to get home so I can see what the max port/airfield sizes are for the bases in Japan. I wonder what the cost would be to upgrade them to an acceptable level....

I don't think the cost to expand them is primary concern Mike, but the time to do so. By the time you enlarge them enough not to cause any significant spoilage (size 5 should be enough for most lower-intensity bases, since it can support 80.000 supplies without spoilage) Japan would probably be very short on supplies, either due to spoiled, consumed or shipped out supplies.

I don't have any experience beyond the 1st 2 months of the game, however, you can husband those things IMO. Most of the poorer bases have no units on them, hence the supply and fuel aren't likely to move over to them. Look at the Spooky figures there (it's also in the manual, though it's a formula instead). One of my main criterias was always to get all inhabited bases to the level two. Any that are inhabited and total 4 or more know that you can use for both fuel and supplies for convoys, though more sparingly for the smaller ones of course.

You will find very few bases that under level 3 and with level 3 you get 32,000 fuel which is quite a lot. IMO supply is the most critical item, but fuel is most frequently the culprit where it's too much for a smaller base. I try to find those bases where there's too much of either item and ship it elsewhere. I haven't seen any of my moving of the items get reshuffled back into that same base, unless it's so gradual that it's almost indistinguishable. I take like 45 minutes a turn, so I am familiar with what base has what level of those items, and I haven't been surprised yet. Generally I try to shift overflows into bases which are lacking (but still under the spoilage limit after shipping), instead of stockpiling the main cities. If you drain excess from all your bases into Tokyo/Osaka etc. then you probably will see them syphon back into those smaller bases. For the life of me I've never seen it, but I've certainly heard about the syphon effect.

I hope that helps some.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 11:11:59 AM

2ndACR

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Does not matter wether you have forces in a base or not in Japan. The computer will move supplies and such there. And leave them there for multiple turns.

I have seen 1,000,000 of supplies and fuel get moved to a podunk base and just sit there. Pain in the butt when you have to manually move all that supplies and fuel out of there by ship and then watch ot go right back again a few turns later.

I have played the game out to Oct 42 in PBEM and have seen some wierd stuff happen in Japan. Before I deployed that is, been a while since I played the game though.

Spoilage rule could be killing the supplies and such. We have asked for a toggle to allow us to shut off the ai from moving supplies/fuel/resources/oil automatcally in bases. That way we can decide when to move the goods and to where. Have not seen it yet.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 12:52:01 PM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord_Calidor

I know that, but I wrote "undeveloped bases". Here are just a few, from the beginning of scen 15:
Gumma - base size (AF + port) 4
Matsuyama - 4
Kanazawa - 2
Hamamatsu - 2
Toyama - 2
Nagaoka - 2
Matsue - 2
Kyoto - 1
Asahigawa - 1

During the supply transfers, game engine likes to stockpile supplies in those small bases, so I suspect they are susceptable to spoilage.

Do you know how much supply AI tends to stock there (and thus what might be the spoilage there)?

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 2:20:50 PM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Does not matter wether you have forces in a base or not in Japan. The computer will move supplies and such there. And leave them there for multiple turns.

I have seen 1,000,000 of supplies and fuel get moved to a podunk base and just sit there. Pain in the butt when you have to manually move all that supplies and fuel out of there by ship and then watch ot go right back again a few turns later.

I have played the game out to Oct 42 in PBEM and have seen some wierd stuff happen in Japan. Before I deployed that is, been a while since I played the game though.

Spoilage rule could be killing the supplies and such. We have asked for a toggle to allow us to shut off the ai from moving supplies/fuel/resources/oil automatcally in bases. That way we can decide when to move the goods and to where. Have not seen it yet.

Well I just don't get it then, because I never see them move, and certainly not in a few turns. I move 30,000 supplies to Palua and it stays. 30,000 to Taan and it stays. 60,000 oil out of Sasebo and Kagoshima and they both don't return. Is there any chance you're sending them to overflowing bases? Maybe the model works fine early but screws up after 6 months?

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 7:46:01 PM

Sharkosaurus rex

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I've tried lots of different things to keep supplies at Sasebo. Two or three ships dropping off supplies. Mega dumps by ten ships. The supply always runs away. I even drained it off all the supply hoping that the AI would bring in some more, but never enough arrives or stays to allow the two factories to repair. One is a research and the other is converted at game's start. Only a couple of points have been fixed.

I move megatons of supplies and fuel from Japan to Truk in Dec 41. That way I'm finished just in time to start moving the oil from newly captured oil sites in Jan 42. And can avoid Allied subs that haven't reached that part of the map yet.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 10:55:36 PM

Lord_Calidor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Do you know how much supply AI tends to stock there (and thus what might be the spoilage there)?

Leo "Apollo11"

It varies from game to game. I think it depends on how much factory expanding you do at a specific base.
In one test game, I didn't expand factories at Gumma, and set all to not repair. Sure enough, in a following turns supplies dropped below 10.000 and stayed there for a 10 turns or so.
In the other game, I convert & set to repair few factories, and after 2-3 turns there was over 20.000 supplies there for some 10 following turns.

However, I have another announcement, in the post just below...

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 17

RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/3/2005 11:05:12 PM

Lord_Calidor

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It looks like Japan doesn't suffer from spoilage, after all.

I started a Scen115 (official Scen15 converted for use with Andrew's map) and left everything on default, didn't expand or convert anything. I chose to watch supply situation on Hokkaido since it's isolated from the rest of the Islands, and it has just 4 bases.

Supply expenditure was spot on, according to manual, with repairing of factories, everyday maintenance costs and airplane ops expending supply. There was no unexplained supply drop in any of the 4 bases, even in Asahigawa, size 1 base. From the turn 2 onward, there was regularly about 20 - 25.000 supplies there, and according to spoilage chart everything in excess of 8.000 should be ruined. I run it until 1.1.42. and there was absolutely zero supply spoilage.

I was also watching fuel situation in Haiphong, a level 9 base. Starting 180.000 fuel dropped just to 166.764 and stayed there for as long as I run the test (there were no fleets sailing/refueling anywhere in Indochina/Malaya).

So either starting bases don't suffer spoilage, or it's broken alltogether.

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

(in reply to Lord_Calidor)

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/4/2005 4:20:37 AM

Damien Thorn

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I thought I remember someone once saying that the home islands and North American cities were exempt from the spoilage rule.

Damien Thorn

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/4/2005 7:22:02 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord_Calidor

It looks like Japan doesn't suffer from spoilage, after all.

I started a Scen115 (official Scen15 converted for use with Andrew's map) and left everything on default, didn't expand or convert anything. I chose to watch supply situation on Hokkaido since it's isolated from the rest of the Islands, and it has just 4 bases.

Supply expenditure was spot on, according to manual, with repairing of factories, everyday maintenance costs and airplane ops expending supply. There was no unexplained supply drop in any of the 4 bases, even in Asahigawa, size 1 base. From the turn 2 onward, there was regularly about 20 - 25.000 supplies there, and according to spoilage chart everything in excess of 8.000 should be ruined. I run it until 1.1.42. and there was absolutely zero supply spoilage.

I was also watching fuel situation in Haiphong, a level 9 base. Starting 180.000 fuel dropped just to 166.764 and stayed there for as long as I run the test (there were no fleets sailing/refueling anywhere in Indochina/Malaya).

So either starting bases don't suffer spoilage, or it's broken alltogether.

I haven't been quite so scientific about it, but I had not noticed a drop either, but then I'm putting forth effort to conquer it, such that it might be too minimal to notice before I get it low enough for no spoilage. You are possibly making one mistake here, though, and that is that you do not know just at what intervals the spoilage occurs. Whether it's working or not, it certainly "should not" blast all the excess away in one day, or even within the 3 weeks of your test most likely, but to not see it move at all is another matter. Maybe the spoilage is monthly or quarterly though.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/4/2005 5:48:52 PM

Mike Solli

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When we talk about spoilage, does anyone have any idea how much is lost? The manual doesn't say.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/4/2005 7:59:33 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

When we talk about spoilage, does anyone have any idea how much is lost? The manual doesn't say.

I think everything over the max amount depending on base size.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/4/2005 8:47:01 PM

Mike Solli

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Boy, if that's true, that really sucks.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/4/2005 10:50:38 PM

Oznoyng

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As far as I can tell, you lose only a portion of the amount over max each turn. I've dumped fuel at some smaller port/airfields and have not lost it all. For instance, I dumped roughly 60000 fuel at Menado one turn and did not lose it all even though the chart says Menado should be a max of 26k fuel.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/5/2005 8:36:42 AM

Charles2222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

As far as I can tell, you lose only a portion of the amount over max each turn. I've dumped fuel at some smaller port/airfields and have not lost it all. For instance, I dumped roughly 60000 fuel at Menado one turn and did not lose it all even though the chart says Menado should be a max of 26k fuel.

That seems most logical. I suppose the only way to get a good feel of it is to put a ton on Guam for example, do nothing there, and watch the amounts every turn. You would also suppose that the higher the amount over the spoilage rate, the quicker the loss would be.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/5/2005 10:06:37 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

As far as I can tell, you lose only a portion of the amount over max each turn. I've dumped fuel at some smaller port/airfields and have not lost it all. For instance, I dumped roughly 60000 fuel at Menado one turn and did not lose it all even though the chart says Menado should be a max of 26k fuel.

That seems most logical. I suppose the only way to get a good feel of it is to put a ton on Guam for example, do nothing there, and watch the amounts every turn. You would also suppose that the higher the amount over the spoilage rate, the quicker the loss would be.

I don�t think you�ll lose all over the max amount in one turn but over more turns until you�re again at the max. amount.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/5/2005 2:53:11 PM

Charles2222

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It did appear Lord_Calidor might have been thinking that however.

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/6/2005 3:38:42 AM

Lord_Calidor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

It did appear Lord_Calidor might have been thinking that however.

I did, initially. But even after 3 game-time weeks of testing I didn't saw any signs of spoilage in Hokkaido.

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

(in reply to Charles2222)

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RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/6/2005 10:15:18 AM

Apollo11

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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord_Calidor

But even after 3 game-time weeks of testing I didn't saw any signs of spoilage in Hokkaido.

Thanks for info (and testing)!

BTW, did you calculate the new supply produced in Japan in equation together with supply usage of bases (i.e. all input and output variables)?

Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Lord_Calidor)

Post #: 29

RE: Spoilage in Japan - 8/8/2005 12:11:28 AM

Lord_Calidor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

Thanks for info (and testing)!

BTW, did you calculate the new supply produced in Japan in equation together with supply usage of bases (i.e. all input and output variables)?

Leo "Apollo11"

No, it was too much of a bother.

I did it just for Hokkaido.

_____________________________

But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage.

(in reply to Apollo11)

Post #: 30