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Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 11:50:36 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline 		Emergency Square Oddities.

When I played my first tactical battle, I found the AI (Poland in this case) charging strait at my in line infantry units both fresh and with good moral. I remember reading in the manual that there was a chance that my infantry units would form emergency squares to fend of these charges… and sure enough they did. Repeatedly the Polish cavalry would charge the center of my line, my infantry would form a emergency square, and the cavalry would end it’s turn. Of course the next turn it would make another frontal charge against a different fresh, veteran, infantry unit inline; until it eventually it ran headlong into one of my units that refused to form an emergency square… whereupon the cavalry unit took huge casualties (thousands) and generally ran from the field crying like little girls. My infantry units would take a couple of hundred.

Oddly, the infantry unit that refused to form an emergency square often took fewer casualties overall during the battle, because once the AI had forced my infantry unit into a square the Polish infantry concentrate almost all of its firepower on that square: casualties to the unit were high and return fire was limited. Often times the infantry unit force into a square has trouble reforming to line (less than 95% chance of success) and had to be pulled out of the battle line, reformed to line, and reinserted.

After fighting may different battles, it has gotten to the point that I wish my units would never form emergence squares. Better for my units to take a frontal charge, lose a few casualties, and shatter the cavalry than take a larger amount of losses while the cavalry dances away.

It seems odd that cavalry can charge strait at inline infantry and take no casualties and is it really necessary for inline infantry charged from the front to form a square?


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"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig
Post #: 1
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 2:18:04 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I think you have not seen enough battles yet

yes at times, the INF will defend itself vs a charge and heavy damage back, but other times, the Cav will tear it apart (of course, my rule of thumb is to not attack a formed line, or column)



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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 2:28:51 PM   
Reg Pither


Posts: 196
Joined: 9/19/2003
From: London
Status: offline 		Has anyone ever seen formed infantry become disordered from a cavalry charge? I've only ever seen infantry form emergency square or just stay in their original formation.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
Post #: 3
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 2:37:02 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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From: Bad Windsheim Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

I think you have not seen enough battles yet

yes at times, the INF will defend itself vs a charge and heavy damage back, but other times, the Cav will tear it apart (of course, my rule of thumb is to not attack a formed line, or column)


Perhaps, but I have never had an experienced Infantry unit suffer such a result.

Now there are those rare occasions where cavalry has moved around the flank and found a militia unit poorly placed, but in a few hundred battles I have never had a problem with experience inline infantry suffering heavily when charged.


_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 2:39:16 PM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

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From: Bad Windsheim Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg Pither
Has anyone ever seen formed infantry become disordered from a cavalry charge? I've only ever seen infantry form emergency square or just stay in their original formation.
I have had an occasional organized militia unit (1.70 morale) come apart when charged, but a good organized infantry unit... never.



_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 3:57:52 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Yes, I have seen line Inf get hammered by a Cav charge, they may be a little rare, but happen enough that they do stand out

better chance when it is a Inf Column, but still, the norm seems the Cav gets hurt



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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 4:26:59 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		Yeah same here, enemy charges into non-disordered infantry usually cause a loss ratio of 5 to 1 in favor of the defender. I myself only charge artillery and disordered infantry because I know the consequences - apparently the AI is not so mindful.

Every battle vs Ai usually involves it throwing all of it's cav at my front line units right from the get go, regardless of state.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 7:58:41 PM   
Joram

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Yes, I have seen line Inf get hammered by a Cav charge, they may be a little rare, but happen enough that they do stand out

better chance when it is a Inf Column, but still, the norm seems the Cav gets hurt




I have to say, I have never had my good order infantry get hammered by enemy cavalry. They've always inflicted much much more damage on the cavalry than I received. Even on the occasions they have been flanked. This has never made sense to me. What's the point of forming a square?

On the flip side, I have on rare occasion hammered enemy infantry (with higher morale than militia) with my cav when they didn't form a square. However, it usually requires two cavalry divisions and the first one will inevitably take a ton of casualties. The first one can shake the infantry up so my follow up attack can break them. I don't do this often and I only ever do it from the rear of the formation because it's usually not worth the loss of my cavalry troops.

The current rules on cavalry charges on ordered troops have never made sense to me. I have always found it to be more detrimental to form squares than just leaving my troops in column or line. Furthermore, it has never made sense to me why in some terrains you cannot form line, but you can form a square.

This part of the game is one of the great disatisfactions for me. :(

(in reply to Hard Sarge)
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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 8:10:36 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		I personally don't think cavalry suffer badly against formed infantry that fail to form emergency squares (though they occasionally do, for the curve of the charge damage is a bit wide ranging, the expectation is mathematically in favor of the cavalry -- with some caveats: cavalry can't be fatigued and infantry can't be in rough terrain [and woe betide fatigued cavalry that charge formed infantry in rough terrain], otherwise the expectation is in favor of the infantry.) However... enough people disagree with my opinion that I am happy to entertain making cavalry charges against formed infantry significantly more powerful.

So the question remains: how more powerful? +50%? +100%? +200%

It could also be the case that cavalry are too cheap relative to the cost of infantry, and that an increase in cavalry power might best be accompanied by an increase in cavalry cost (and/or in upkeep cost).

Comments?

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 9
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 8:18:06 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline 		I think one good change would be to increase the defender disorder after a successful charge. Like for example, if an infantry unit does not form a square, then regardless of the actual casualties taken during the charge, that infantry unit would almost certainly be disordered (and fatigued).

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 10
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 9:43:15 PM   
Joram

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I personally don't think cavalry suffer badly against formed infantry that fail to form emergency squares (though they occasionally do, for the curve of the charge damage is a bit wide ranging, the expectation is mathematically in favor of the cavalry -- with some caveats: cavalry can't be fatigued and infantry can't be in rough terrain [and woe betide fatigued cavalry that charge formed infantry in rough terrain], otherwise the expectation is in favor of the infantry.) However... enough people disagree with my opinion that I am happy to entertain making cavalry charges against formed infantry significantly more powerful.

So the question remains: how more powerful? +50%? +100%? +200%

It could also be the case that cavalry are too cheap relative to the cost of infantry, and that an increase in cavalry power might best be accompanied by an increase in cavalry cost (and/or in upkeep cost).

Comments?



Speaking for myself only, I certainly don't have enough information to say your rules are wrong. But from what I have experienced in gameplay, it feels wrong. I will admit to not experimenting enough with my own troops to have a good handle on the variety of factors that go into a successful charge. I usually simply wait till the enemy is in poor order and then charge like mad. But at least knowing more about the factors, I might be encouraged to try more charges out against good order infantry.

Maybe part of the problem is that the AI doesn't seem to care if it's own cavalry are fatigued or not when they charge into my troops. Also, they have no qualms about charging my units when in rough terrain. So I imagine that's why I constantly see them decimating themselves against my troops when they fail to form squares.

I wouldn't request anything so drastic as just upping the power since I don't have all the information. However, maybe a few tweaks to make it feel better are in order?

The most important change would be:
1. Adjusting casualties in square formation so that you would never even want to be in square unless absolutely forced to by a cavalry attack. Maybe there is a modifier already but it's not very apparent to me.

2. Failing that, I would tweak the AI so that cavalry don't charge good order troops so often, because even if it's a small percentage of a time, they charge so often that inevitably someone is not going to change to square and the cavalry is going to be decimated.

3. In any case, I would tweak the AI so that would rarely charge a good order enemy in rough terrain. In fact, if possible, I would make it happen only in the case if my first suggestion is implemented. It would definitely be a sound tactical decision to force them into square in any terrain if an enemy artillery or infantry unit could then fire on them causing additional casualties. But if that suggestion isn't implemented, charging good order infantry in rough terrain would be dubious even under the best of circumstances.

Your comment on Cavalry being cheap is a good point but I don't think making it more expensive would by itself solve any problems. And perhaps it's not cheap, perhaps it's just that there are too many horses. :)

As an aside, is it possible to recover from "Fatigued" status? I've never noticed it happen. But if so, it might give cavalry a little more life as well.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 11
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/26/2005 11:19:38 PM   
MarcelJV


Posts: 343
Joined: 5/9/2005
From: Mohrsville, PA
Status: offline 		There is nothing wrong with your opinion. I happen to agree, but I would like to see infantry that does not form square become shaken or even disordered, so that the cavalry has a chance to do some damage. As it stands now even low morale infantry stand up to a charge if they do not form square. So I see a test in this order.

1. Emergency Square test
2. failed emergency square test Panic test: Morale test + 30% if not shaken. If they fail then auto disordered, shaken, fatigued or better yet routed.
3. Failed emergency square morale test to determine if unit becomes shaken
4. Failed emergency square morale test to determine if unit becomes disordered.

If you pass test 1 then you are done. If you fail test 1 then do test 2. If you pass test 2 then you do 3 and 4. If you fail test 2 then no need to do 3 or 4. I would think high morale troops would normally pass the test. Hopefully this represents what people expect should occur. This foots to what I have read about the tactics relative to cavalry charges.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I personally don't think cavalry suffer badly against formed infantry that fail to form emergency squares (though they occasionally do, for the curve of the charge damage is a bit wide ranging, the expectation is mathematically in favor of the cavalry -- with some caveats: cavalry can't be fatigued and infantry can't be in rough terrain [and woe betide fatigued cavalry that charge formed infantry in rough terrain], otherwise the expectation is in favor of the infantry.) However... enough people disagree with my opinion that I am happy to entertain making cavalry charges against formed infantry significantly more powerful.

So the question remains: how more powerful? +50%? +100%? +200%

It could also be the case that cavalry are too cheap relative to the cost of infantry, and that an increase in cavalry power might best be accompanied by an increase in cavalry cost (and/or in upkeep cost).

Comments?



(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 12
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/27/2005 12:19:06 AM   
Joram

 

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quote:

There is nothing wrong with your opinion. I happen to agree, but I would like to see infantry that does not form square become shaken or even disordered, so that the cavalry has a chance to do some damage. As it stands now even low morale infantry stand up to a charge if they do not form square. So I see a test in this order.

1. Emergency Square test
2. failed emergency square test Panic test: Morale test + 30% if not shaken. If they fail then auto disordered, shaken, fatigued or better yet routed.
3. Failed emergency square morale test to determine if unit becomes shaken
4. Failed emergency square morale test to determine if unit becomes disordered.

If you pass test 1 then you are done. If you fail test 1 then do test 2. If you pass test 2 then you do 3 and 4. If you fail test 2 then no need to do 3 or 4. I would think high morale troops would normally pass the test. Hopefully this represents what people expect should occur. This foots to what I have read about the tactics relative to cavalry charges.


This seems pretty reasonable with or without my suggestions.

(in reply to MarcelJV)
Post #: 13
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/27/2005 4:08:11 AM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		The disorder-before-charge-when-failed-square sounds like an excellent rule. I like it because it'll make charging low-quality units more advantageous while preserving the riskiness of charges against formed high-quality units.

It'll also give players more of an incentive to choose to square their units -- as there is almost no incentive to do this at present.

(in reply to Joram)
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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/27/2005 6:01:20 PM   
Reg Pither


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From: London
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

The disorder-before-charge-when-failed-square sounds like an excellent rule.



Maybe it's just me, but I was under the impression that this was the way it already works anyway. Hence my querying the fact that I've never seen it happen.

(in reply to ericbabe)
Post #: 15
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/27/2005 6:43:20 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well back to if it does or if it doesn't, I just had two battles in a row, where the AI Cav Charged my Inf in line and won the battle

seeing it is a game I just started, maybe why you do not see it, is your troops are trained enough to form Square in time or stay in line and fight

one of the battles I had to scamble, when two Inf Divs got over ran in the middle of my line (only 60,000 men in army to start with)

other battle, they broke one of my lines, but crashed against the rest of it

so, they do win sometimes

HARD_Sarge

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RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/30/2005 7:36:43 AM   
Culiacan Mexico

 

Posts: 8348
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Bad Windsheim Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

I personally don't think cavalry suffer badly against formed infantry that fail to form emergency squares (though they occasionally do, for the curve of the charge damage is a bit wide ranging, the expectation is mathematically in favor of the cavalry -- with some caveats: cavalry can't be fatigued and infantry can't be in rough terrain [and woe betide fatigued cavalry that charge formed infantry in rough terrain], otherwise the expectation is in favor of the infantry.) However... enough people disagree with my opinion that I am happy to entertain making cavalry charges against formed infantry significantly more powerful.

So the question remains: how more powerful? +50%? +100%? +200%

It could also be the case that cavalry are too cheap relative to the cost of infantry, and that an increase in cavalry power might best be accompanied by an increase in cavalry cost (and/or in upkeep cost).

Comments?

I guess my comments/questions are…

1. The opening tactic of the AI is to launch frontal attacks against fresh, good morale infantry… does this seem right?

2. Should fresh, good morale infantry taking a frontal attack from cavalry change to squares or remain inline as there seems to be little reason or value to make such a formation shift?

3. Emergency Squares don’t really act like a strong defensive verses cavalry but more as a force field: I have never had an enemy cavalry unit complete the charge against and emergency square (they always call it off). While I can accept the fact that a high morale (+9.0) might have the skill to halt an attack against an infantry unit that has changed to square… can the same be said for a low morale raw recruit cavalry unit? Shouldn’t there be some possibility that a cavalry unit has to pay the price if it has the audacity to launch an attack on a well organized infantry unit and it forms a square?


Comment: I am more curious about tactic usage and response… than in it relative power at this time.



_____________________________

"If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lig

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Post #: 17
RE: Emergency Square Oddities. - 8/30/2005 3:12:33 PM   
ericbabe


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Yes, the opening tactic of the AI seems to be to launch charges against infantry units.

I would say that there is a possibility that a cavalry unit has to pay the price of a halted charge, but that this chance happens later in the round.


(in reply to Culiacan Mexico)
Post #: 18
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