Bocage (also hedges and walls)

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Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/12/2005 6:23:06 AM

Magua

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I'm having a tough time understanding the explanations as to how these features affect LOS and combat. On the Player's Reference Card, for Bocage it says, "Units adjacent to a bocage hexside can be seen, and need not be spotted." It also says "Blocks LOS through," but also says "Doesn't block LOS in which bocage forms a hexside."

It all seems contradictory to me. So I'm hoping that someone can give me the unabridged version of Bocage, Hedges, and Walls 101.

Oh yeah. What the heck does a M-79 have to do with bocage? I don't believe the two were ever in the other's company.

Thanx fellas.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/12/2005 5:53:04 PM

JosephL

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Woot! I get to answer a question I actually know:

What that means is any unit ADJACENT to the bocage can be spotted.

Any unit 1 hex away (for instance in the middle of a bocage ring) is BLOCKED LOS (meaning they can NOT be spotted).

Any unit that is ADJACENT to a border (for instance, one unit is DIRECTLY north of the other and there is a line of boccage connecting them) is automatically spotted (For spotting reasons they are considered adjacent).

The only rule that should be confusing you still (possibly) is that third one:

If you look at a map and look at a boccage hex that travles either due east and west or due north and south you will notice it is a line that extends from one hex to another. There is a chance that two units can be adjacent with that line of boccage blocking them. Contrary to what it looks like, these units are adjacent for spotting reasons but NOT for firing reasons.

-Joe

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/13/2005 4:09:52 AM

Magua

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I still don't get it. The Player's Reference card states that a unit adjacent to a bocage hexside can be seen and need not be spotted. Yet, in the "Type" column it describes bocage as "Blocking."

So what I think it means to say is:

Bocage is blocking terrain. If the LOS passes through the bocage to the unit in that hex, the unit must be spotted. If the LOS does not pass through the bocage, but through a clear hexside, the unit is visible and does not need to be spotted, unless there is some other type of blocking or degrading terrain in the hex.

Most of the bocage in Normandy was like a wall of tangled shrubs, trees and undergrowth. Much of it grew out of a berm that was a tangle of roots. Often these berms themselves were higher than a man's head. It was the density of this stuff that made the hedgerow fighting in Normandy so dangerous. There are many accounts of opposing soldiers being on opposite sides of the same hedgerow and not being able to see each other. Spotting enemy troops behind a bocage hedgerow 100+ yards away was very difficult, and in game terms should require spotting.

So that's why I'm having trouble understanding this. Unless, of course, I do understand it but don't realize that I do.

< Message edited by Magua -- 9/13/2005 4:11:12 AM >

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/13/2005 6:25:39 AM

crabe tambour

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Hi,
I'm not sure to understand what is what you don't understand.... ;)
I try with an example, map 14 :
G5 has no LOS on J7 (bocage between H6/I6 make I6 blocking terrain from G5) And vice versa, of course: bocage between H6/I6 make H6 blocking terrain from J7.
G5 has a LOS on I6 ("Doesn't block LOS in which bocage forms a hexside." ). And I6 has a LOS to G5.
If there is an unspotted axis unit in I6, a US unit in G5 can attempt to spot her. 1 or 2 on 1D6 because bocage makes I6 blocking terrain.

To make short, a hexe is considered blocking terrain if the LOS to to this hexe cross bocage. (or wall, or hedge, or siamese twins elephants alignement etc)

It's the same as usual in fact. It would be the same if I6 was heavy forest, building or giant beans plantation, regarding LOS from G5.
Clear?

< Message edited by crabe tambour -- 9/13/2005 6:54:54 AM >

(in reply to Magua)

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/13/2005 7:00:36 AM

crabe tambour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magua
It was the density of this stuff that made the hedgerow fighting in Normandy so dangerous.

And don't forget the blackberry bushes. It makes rents in uniforms. THAT was terrible.

< Message edited by crabe tambour -- 9/13/2005 7:03:06 AM >

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/13/2005 7:29:58 AM

yossarians

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Hmmm, now see MY read was that units in a hex that borders on Bocage can be fired at, but if they're one hex away you can't see them. Same for units firing out--fire through the border if they're right next to it, otherwise no.

But hey, I don't even know what the hell bocage is so ymmv.

(in reply to crabe tambour)

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/13/2005 3:51:51 PM

crabe tambour

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Yes you're right yossarians.

For bocage, think about a huge hedge
Pictures here :
http://a.laparra.free.fr/photos/Le%20bocage.JPG
http://www.pluct.net/images/fondecran/fond_chinonais/bocage_chinonais_800.jpg
http://www.panzer-modell.de/dioramen/bocage/03g.jpg
http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Images/Dioramas/WS-diorama-01.jpg

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/13/2005 4:59:56 PM

Airborne82nd

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Nice pics there! Also, the dioramas are cool. Thanks.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/14/2005 2:19:43 AM

Magua

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crabe tambour

If there is an unspotted axis unit in I6, a US unit in G5 can attempt to spot her. 1 or 2 on 1D6 because bocage makes I6 blocking terrain.

That's exactly what I was trying to get clear -- that a unit directly behind boacage MUST be spotted before it can be attacked. The Player's Reference card seems to say otherwise which just seemed whacky to me.

Thanks fellas. Nice pics Crabe. Either of these where you live? Nice dioramas too.

(in reply to crabe tambour)

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/14/2005 9:48:55 PM

JosephL

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As I understood it from Mark, Yossarians is correct.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/15/2005 2:30:06 AM

Magua

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Okay, now I'm really confused. So I made this example.

In the example above, the green brushy stuff is bocage. Shouldn't counter B have to spot counter A before A can be attacked?

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/15/2005 3:42:26 AM

crabe tambour

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Yes, B has to spot first !
A need to be spotted before being fired by B>> because, A is in blocking terrain>>because the side of the hexe of A is bocage and because the LOS from B to A is crossing this bocage.

Place a C counter in the hex north west from A. B can NOT see C, because, for the same reasons than above, A hexe is blocking terrain.

I notice i was not clear in a precedent post. I do it again :
To make short, a hexe is considered blocking terrain if the LOS to this hexe cross bocage and if this bocage is one side of this hexe .
Sorry if it disturbed you.
It's difficult to paraphrase the rules....

< Message edited by crabe tambour -- 9/15/2005 4:57:57 AM >

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/15/2005 2:06:41 PM

Magua

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Thanx Crabbe-

You explained it fine, and even better this time. I think the way I was phrasing the question was not very clear, and a number of guys here were answering it in different ways. So I think I was getting myself all turned around.

Are walls and hedges handled the same way?

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/15/2005 2:18:29 PM

CptWaspLuca

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I add a note: obviously if A is marked with a Fired, Move or Assault Move marker A is automatically spotted.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/15/2005 4:03:57 PM

crabe tambour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magua

Are walls and hedges handled the same way?

Concerning LOS, Yep.

The exception is when the LOS is traced "along" the hex side (see notes). Blocking for bocage, not for walls, hedges and siemese twins elephant alignements.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/15/2005 8:40:53 PM

Hannes

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Do you guys also love this "Spotting" rules as much as I do?

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/16/2005 2:30:02 AM

Magua

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You bet. You can never be sure of what you'll be able to do in a turn. Also, running around in the open is foolish and very dangerous, as I would think it should be.

Thanks again to all you guys.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/16/2005 2:56:42 AM

crabe tambour

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hannes

Do you guys also love this "Spotting" rules as much as I do?

Yep. Really. They are a very ingenious and "elegant" way to translate "Fog of war" in the facts. Much better to me than "?" counters. I like too that units always take the best position (=unspotted). And it's a good game in the game. I can't figure now a tactical game without this spotting rules.

< Message edited by crabe tambour -- 9/16/2005 2:57:52 AM >

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/17/2005 5:19:47 AM

stanguay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crabe tambour
Yes, B has to spot first !
A need to be spotted before being fired by B>> because, A is in blocking terrain>>because the side of the hexe of A is bocage and because the LOS from B to A is crossing this bocage.

Crabe

I was wondering if A is really in blocking terrain. If B was on the other side, then A would be in open terrain. Bocage is along hexside; it does not confer any "quality" to the hexes behind it. The bocage is not even considered blocking under this situation !

That being said, it does seem logical to me that you indeeed have to spot a unit hiding behind a wall or a bocage so that's what I have used as a rule.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/17/2005 4:24:31 PM

crabe tambour

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Hi Stephane.

All that was clear to me before this discussion.... Gasp....
What I see is that :
- Boccage type is blocking on the chart
- The LOS from B to a hexe North West from A is Blocked. But the Los from B to A is not (like if there was a building in A hexe, right?)
- So I assume that A hexe is CONSIDERED blocking terrain when you sight from B.

For LOS purposes and spotting attempts, A hexe works like a blocking terrain, view from B. No?
As you say, A hexe "IS" not a blocking terrain. It's just considered blocking on certain condition. Right?

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/17/2005 5:18:06 PM

Magua

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I understand it to be the way crabbe has described.

It would sure be nice if a developer could step in here. In fact, the whole hexside thing is inadequately explained in the rules. I say this because it is not discussed in the rules, but only on the player's reference card, and there, the explanations seem more geared to experienced players.

Here's how I might address the LOS thingie.

There are two basic types of terrain, hex, and hexside. Within these two types there are two densities of terrain, blocking and degrading.

Hex terrain is any type of terrain that appears within the hex. Clear, forest, buildings, and roads are examples of hex terrain.

Hexside terrain runs along the hexside(s) of a hex. Bocage, hedges, and walls are examples of hexside terrain.

Blocking terrain is any terrain type that is substantial enough to block LOS. Buildings (hex), Bocage (hexside), and forest (hex), are examples of blocking terrain. LOS can be traced into a hex with blocking terrain, but not beyond (see 10.2 Buildings & Hills).

LOS can be traced into a hex adjacent to a hexside with blocking terrain, but not beyond. The die roll for any spotting or direct fire attempt passing through a blocking hexside is modfied based on the terrain (see Player's Reference card.) One exception is if the spotting unit is adjacent to the blocking hexside. In this case, its LOS is not blocked to adjacent or to non-adjacent hexes though, there may be spotting and direct fire modifiers (see Player's Reference card for the particular terrain type). In the case where the LOS is traced into a hex adjacent to a blocking hexside, but the LOS does not pass through the blocking hexside, the target unit is considered to be in the terrain of the hex. In other words, hexside blocking terrain only affects LOS and Direct Fire that passes through the blocked hexside.

Hexes with degrading terrain do not block LOS. The degrading terrain does, however, affect spotting ability and direct fire. This is in the form of a modifer that is subtracted from the spotter's or attacker's die roll (see Player's Reference card). LOS and Direct Fire can be traced through a maximum two hexes.

There are no hexsides classified as degrading in BoH.

Terrain affects the following:
-rally attempts,
-movement,
-spotting, and
-direct fire.

That's how I understand it, at least while banging this thing out without so much as a cup of coffee in me yet. Do you guys have anything to add?

Ya know, if the explanation for hexside terrain had been included in the rules, instead of on the Player's Reference card, and if all of the Viet Nam info was removed, the rest of the terrain effects would fit on an 8.5 x 11" sheet, making it much easier to use and handle. in fact, I think I'm going to do that.

< Message edited by Magua -- 9/17/2005 5:21:03 PM >

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/17/2005 6:13:25 PM

aknaton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magua
It would sure be nice if a developer could step in here. In fact, the whole hexside thing is inadequately explained in the rules. I say this because it is not discussed in the rules, but only on the player's reference card, and there, the explanations seem more geared to experienced players.

I agree with your asessment. This should have been in the rules instead. And it would have been nice to see more short examples in the rules of the various rules. The Examples of play at the end of the rules really helped me a lot in the understanding of the game, but they doesnt cover all of the common situations (even though they give us a very good feel for the flow of the game). So more short exemples explaining individual rules would have been nice.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/17/2005 9:15:34 PM

Hannes

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@Magua
As far as I understand it - all is correct what you say.

@aknaton
Well, wont help you then, but I am working on something what should help a little. No really timeline for this project, though.

Anyways:
I was in my comment so enthusiastic about the spotting rule itself, that I didn't care about the image for the example. B needs no spotting roll for A.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/17/2005 9:24:03 PM

crabe tambour

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yep. Then I was wrong. I will hang myself with a rotten fish gut right now.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/18/2005 3:01:18 AM

Magua

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hannes

@Magua
As far as I understand it - all is correct what you say.

@aknaton
Well, wont help you then, but I am working on something what should help a little. No really timeline for this project, though.

Anyways:
I was in my comment so enthusiastic about the spotting rule itself, that I didn't care about the image for the example. B needs no spotting roll for A.

So, even though A is behind bocage, which is blocking terrain, B can automatically see him?

I hope that isn't correct. It doesn't make sense. Bocage is/was probably the best cover available. Not only could the foliage be extremely tangled and thick, the root berm was often a meter or more high itself. It just doesn't make sense to me that you would need to spot a unit in trees, forest, or brush, but not bocage.

We really need a developer to step in and straighten this out.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/18/2005 3:05:22 PM

Hannes

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Well I am not a developer, but: yes, it is like that.
However, feel free to play it with spotting. Maybe I will also try it one day.

For the game mechanics itself, it is cohesive. The unit IS in open terrein. The same, when you trace LOS through 2 degrading hexes into an open hex with an unit therein. Also no spotting.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/18/2005 6:26:32 PM

Magua

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I see what you are saying Hannes. And that's kinda the way the rules read to me too. I just assumed I was missing something. If it's true, they've gutted the most important terrain feature in the game. It was the opaqueness and density of the bocage that set the tone for the fighting in Normandy. It was the very fact that you couldn't see what was on the other side that made the fighting in bocage country so tough. To allow units to automatically see enemy units positioned behind bocage at a hundred yards or more, would be unrealistic. Considering how much work went into this system to make it as accurate as it is, it's just hard for me to believe this.

Yo! Devs! A little help here?

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/18/2005 8:55:56 PM

benpark

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That seems wrong. The hedgerow should block LOS. I don't have my game yet (Tuesday), but I will change the rule myself if the hedgerow does not block it. Will this majorly screw up any other rules as a "house rule"?

And yeah, now that the game is out-where the heck did the guy who wrote the rules go!

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/18/2005 10:22:34 PM

Hannes

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You mean - change it that you need to spot units in a hex where your LOS crosses the bocage in it? No, screws up nothing.

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RE: Bocage (also hedges and walls) - 9/18/2005 11:52:42 PM

stanguay

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No, changing this rule won't screw up anything. Oh and remember that Bocage DOES block LOS, only not into an hex adjacent to it. I suppose it represent a unit that is peering over the earth bank, trying to spot ennemy on the other side too.

It's a classic rule in Squad Leader too, applied to walls. You can't see a unit on the other side of a wall except if said unit is adjacent to the wall. Again, I think it represent that this unit is peering over the wall, trying to spot ennemy or some such.

Myself, I do require a spotting check. And I would be inclined to do the same for a unit standing on open ground behind one or two hexes of blocking/degrading terrain. Right now, this unit would be spotted automatically.

but that's just me.

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