Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Please note that this is not anti Allies post - this is aimed for both sides!


Hi all,

IMHO the WitP was extremely playable and great fun even at v1.0 1+ years ago - best wargame that we ever had!!!

Continuous work on it (with upcoming v1.70 soon to be with us) made the game even better - thanks Mike!


Nonetheless few items/issues still remain that can't be properly dealt even with "House Rules".


The most, IMHO, problematic example is massive usage of 4E and 2E level bomber attacks even as early as 1942...

BTW, the night attacks were reduced in past patches (THANKS!) but if massed the 4E and 2E level bombers can still wreck total havoc.


Can something, please, be done with this?



Few Leo's ideas to fix this (I hope simple to implement):



#2
The 4E and 2E level bombers should suffer devastating damage when flying low in area that was protected by AA.

The AA should have most effect with enemy 4E and 2E level bombers flying low and then diminish as altitude rises.

Right now even several regiments of AA (100+ 75mm and 105mm AA guns) are almost useless against, for example, B-17 attacking from 6000 or 10000 ft which should not be the case at all (slow flying and big B-17 should present ideal targets for AA and should be devastated)...

BTW, if you guys recall, I did many many comprehensive tests with all kind of 4E and 2E bombers doing level attack from different altitudes but even when _EXTREME_ enemy AA was present it had almost no effect.

Leo "Apollo11"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Do you mean that Flak doesn't fire below 7,000' in the stock game? Seems that it should be quite lethal...

Am I misunderstanding something?

-F-

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Got to save my pence What happens if Nik starts charging for Mods Besides I don't have enough time to play 3.0

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Do you mean that Flak doesn't fire below 7,000' in the stock game? Seems that it should be quite lethal...

Am I misunderstanding something?

-F-

Flak with a ceiling higher than 25,000 feet (i.e. heavy flak....the only guns with that kind of reach) will not fire below a set altitude based on a formula that looks at the ceiling value per micheal's list (based on tests we both did)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Sounds like a working feature of the game IMHO!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Got to save my pence What happens if Nik starts charging for Mods Besides I don't have enough time to play 3.0

Are you tired of wearing a "hit me, i like it!" sign when flying your Ki-43
Are you sick to death of Kablammo?
Tired of seeing Grumman spin in his grave?


Try NikMod 4.0!!!

available at the low price of 1 slice of pepperoni pizza.

mmm mmm toasty
OMG Why did I have to go and give him that idea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Yes in BTR the limit is 2500. I can tell you this though., When you play BTR you experience TRUE flak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Innocent question: Is this (only) a result of the BTR-engine or of the fact that there was "real" flak employed in the ETO (seems to me that the Germans employed more and better flak than the Japanese).

quote:


(And another innocent remark: and weren't Japanese 105mm AA guns only employed in fixed positions, somewhat heavy calibre to be moved around as we see it in the game...)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

innocent answer: what do you mean by "real" flak?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Have you checked out Nik's Mod 3.0 Severely restricts 4E's and bombloads and enhances Base AA making low level bombing dangerous.
This along with basically halving transport capacity is making my war much longer

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too

Hi,

it's not that I disagree with you about the role flak plays in WITP. But I'm not convinced if your approach to that issue is the right one here. I've seen (even) Japanese flak to be quite devastating in PBEM when employed in large numbers. Because of this experience, I'm not sure if the problem (flak not efficient enough) is a result of the game engine or the stats used for AA guns. I know (because I've some pretty good sources about this) that the OOB misses lots of British/Indian/CW African AA units. Even when considering that base forces cover some AA regiments, the numbers of AA guns available, that is, the number of AA guns you can employ with combat units/base forces, do not nearly match the numbers that were available in India from 1942 onwards. Don't know if this is the same with the Japanese (have no valid data about this; but because the Japanese receive lots of base forces it may come close or at least closer to historical figures). In short: To me, it seems that the (underrated) efficiency of flak may be due to the game not having enough AA units. And that would rather be an OOB issue than a question of efficiency of AA guns...

K

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

quote:


Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

This scenarios are "Leo TEST Scenario #116.zip" (for day) and "Leo TEST Scenario #117.zip" (for night) - you can find them here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D856273

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 84


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
365 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 89


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
437 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 4
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 88


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 20 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sata, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
670 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

Port hits 11
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
265 casualties reported
Guns lost 13

Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
19 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 83


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
399 casualties reported
Guns lost 19

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 54


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
77 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

The devastation of ships in port is enormous... it's like shooting duck in a bathtub.. the only (possibly) good thing is that night time attack produced "only" 3 hits...


Note that Japanese AAA units consist of:

Heavy AA Rgt (5 units used):

105mm AA Gun x12
75mm AA Gun x12
13 mm AAMG (2) x 8


Thus there were (in total):

105mm AA Gun x60
75mm AA Gun x60
13 mm AAMG (2) x40

This is _TREMENDOUS_ number of muzzle power and large and relatively slow bombers flying at 10000 ft (= 3000 m = 3 km) should be easy easy targets...

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE