Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (Full Version)

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Apollo11 -> Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 4:48:09 PM)

Please note that this is not anti Allies post - this is aimed for both sides!


Hi all,

IMHO the WitP was extremely playable and great fun even at v1.0 1+ years ago - best wargame that we ever had!!! [:D]

Continuous work on it (with upcoming v1.70 soon to be with us) made the game even better - thanks Mike! [&o]


Nonetheless few items/issues still remain that can't be properly dealt even with "House Rules".


The most, IMHO, problematic example is massive usage of 4E and 2E level bomber attacks even as early as 1942...

BTW, the night attacks were reduced in past patches (THANKS!) but if massed the 4E and 2E level bombers can still wreck total havoc.


Can something, please, be done with this?



Few Leo's ideas to fix this (I hope simple to implement):


#1
Heavy AA concentrations should throw of aim for level bombers (i.e. disrupt them). More experienced bomber crews should suffer less but they should still suffer (i.e. in WWII anyways much of AA was indented to create strong barrage effect to drive incoming bombers off aim).


#2
The 4E and 2E level bombers should suffer devastating damage when flying low in area that was protected by AA.

The AA should have most effect with enemy 4E and 2E level bombers flying low and then diminish as altitude rises.

Right now even several regiments of AA (100+ 75mm and 105mm AA guns) are almost useless against, for example, B-17 attacking from 6000 or 10000 ft which should not be the case at all (slow flying and big B-17 should present ideal targets for AA and should be devastated)...

BTW, if you guys recall, I did many many comprehensive tests with all kind of 4E and 2E bombers doing level attack from different altitudes but even when _EXTREME_ enemy AA was present it had almost no effect.


#3
IMHO we still have way to precise attacks in WitP. Navigation was very hard in WWII PTO and much more 4E and 2E level bombers should fail to find proper targets. More experienced bomber crews should suffer less but they should still suffer.


#4
Combined massed attacks by hundreds of aircraft was hard to achieve and coordinate.

If we already have, for example, penalty for CVs why don't we introduce the similar penalty for 4E and 2E level bombers as well?

The penalty should progressively drop from 1942 to 1945 (i.e. much much more problems in 1942 than in 1945) and should make those attack more piecemeal instead of group (i.e. that way we would get 2 good things: a) smaller groups of 4E and 2E level bombers doing less damage and b) smaller groups of attacking 4E and 2E level bombers more prone to enemy actions)!


#5
Overall effectiveness of 4E and 2E level bombers on target should decrease from current level for both day and night missions.


What do you say gentleman?


Leo "Apollo11"




gunner333 -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:09:04 PM)

Too good to be truth. [:D]




ckk -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:09:41 PM)

Have you checked out Nik's Mod 3.0 Severely restricts 4E's and bombloads and enhances Base AA making low level bombing dangerous.
This along with basically halving transport capacity is making my war much longer[8D]




Speedysteve -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:10:32 PM)

100% agreee ckk. Nik Mod 4.0 is son to be released with further improvements. Pay me £5 and you can get it [:D]




ckk -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:25:08 PM)

Sorry too busy playing 3.0. I want to get to the point where strategic bombing of the Home Islands and see how the enhanced AA works against it[;)]




michaelm75au -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:32:14 PM)

From testing I have found that there is a minimum altitude that heavy AA guns can't fire below. This mimimum appears to be a factor of the gun's normal ceiling and starts from 26K.

The dead zone lies between (not suprisingly) 6K and 9K feet.
Guns with max of 26K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 28K feet have a min of 7K.
Guns with max of 30K feet have a min of 8K.
Guns with max of 34K feet have a min of 9K.

Nik's mod attempts to counter this dead zone.

Michael
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Please note that this is not anti Allies post - this is aimed for both sides!


Hi all,

IMHO the WitP was extremely playable and great fun even at v1.0 1+ years ago - best wargame that we ever had!!! [:D]

Continuous work on it (with upcoming v1.70 soon to be with us) made the game even better - thanks Mike! [&o]


Nonetheless few items/issues still remain that can't be properly dealt even with "House Rules".


The most, IMHO, problematic example is massive usage of 4E and 2E level bomber attacks even as early as 1942...

BTW, the night attacks were reduced in past patches (THANKS!) but if massed the 4E and 2E level bombers can still wreck total havoc.


Can something, please, be done with this?



Few Leo's ideas to fix this (I hope simple to implement):



#2
The 4E and 2E level bombers should suffer devastating damage when flying low in area that was protected by AA.

The AA should have most effect with enemy 4E and 2E level bombers flying low and then diminish as altitude rises.

Right now even several regiments of AA (100+ 75mm and 105mm AA guns) are almost useless against, for example, B-17 attacking from 6000 or 10000 ft which should not be the case at all (slow flying and big B-17 should present ideal targets for AA and should be devastated)...

BTW, if you guys recall, I did many many comprehensive tests with all kind of 4E and 2E bombers doing level attack from different altitudes but even when _EXTREME_ enemy AA was present it had almost no effect.

Leo "Apollo11"





Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:38:54 PM)

from 25k+ actually. I found that even a ceiling of 25500 produced the dead zone.





Sardaukar -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:43:35 PM)

Well, if one puts heavy AA ceiling to 25 000 the dead zone dissappears ?
Not bad, since I don't think that bombers are that accurate above 25 000 ft.




Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 5:45:30 PM)

Yes...though bear in mind, that change alone wont make much difference.





Speedysteve -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 6:06:14 PM)

But ckk I need that £5 [;)]




Feinder -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 6:15:10 PM)

Do you mean that Flak doesn't fire below 7,000' in the stock game? Seems that it should be quite lethal...

Am I misunderstanding something?

-F-




ckk -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 6:20:26 PM)

Got to save my pence [:D] What happens if Nik starts charging for Mods[X(][X(][X(] Besides I don't have enough time to play 3.0[:@]




Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 6:38:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Do you mean that Flak doesn't fire below 7,000' in the stock game? Seems that it should be quite lethal...

Am I misunderstanding something?

-F-


Flak with a ceiling higher than 25,000 feet (i.e. heavy flak....the only guns with that kind of reach) will not fire below a set altitude based on a formula that looks at the ceiling value per micheal's list (based on tests we both did)





Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:07:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Got to save my pence [:D] What happens if Nik starts charging for Mods[X(][X(][X(] Besides I don't have enough time to play 3.0[:@]


Are you tired of wearing a "hit me, i like it!" sign when flying your Ki-43
Are you sick to death of Kablammo?
Tired of seeing Grumman spin in his grave?


Try NikMod 4.0!!!

available at the low price of 1 slice of pepperoni pizza.

mmm mmm toasty!





Kereguelen -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:08:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Do you mean that Flak doesn't fire below 7,000' in the stock game? Seems that it should be quite lethal...

Am I misunderstanding something?

-F-


Flak with a ceiling higher than 25,000 feet (i.e. heavy flak....the only guns with that kind of reach) will not fire below a set altitude based on a formula that looks at the ceiling value per micheal's list (based on tests we both did)




But what's the problem with this[&:]?

Heavy AA guns have a minimum range to effectively hit anything. A 90mm/105mm/3.7in AA gun will not hit many planes that come in at a low altitude (only by chance) and their shrapnels would be very dangerous to their own crews if fired that way. Low levels that is what AA-MG's and 20mm/40mm AA guns are for (btw, this one of the main problems the British faced when confronted by V-1 rockets flying at 2,500 feet)!

Sounds like a working feature of the game IMHO[:)]!




Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:14:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Sounds like a working feature of the game IMHO[:)]!


In theory. Yes, though a bit severe. From what i've been told in BTR, the min alt restriction is less severe at around 2000 feet for the heavies. However in BTR if you attack at 6000 feet with your heavies your going to have quite a different experience than you will in WitP. I had a rather unfortunate incident with a P47 gathering..they are still not speaking to me.

Thats the crux. A minimum altitude rule of itself is not ahistorical. Its what's happening in the game that makes it bad (IMO) Land based flak is a non factor. 6000 foot attacks are the rule with the base steamrolled in 24 hours and kept that way through constant attacks.




ckk -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:19:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Got to save my pence [:D] What happens if Nik starts charging for Mods[X(][X(][X(] Besides I don't have enough time to play 3.0[:@]


Are you tired of wearing a "hit me, i like it!" sign when flying your Ki-43
Are you sick to death of Kablammo?
Tired of seeing Grumman spin in his grave?


Try NikMod 4.0!!!

available at the low price of 1 slice of pepperoni pizza.

mmm mmm toasty
OMG[:@] Why did I have to go and give him that idea[X(]






Speedysteve -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:20:08 PM)

LOL.

Yes in BTR the limit is 2500. I can tell you this though., When you play BTR you experience TRUE flak. Right Nik? [;)]

His Jugs loved him after their jaunt to Holland. Oh look lets fly over a total of 60ish 88's + 100's LAA[:D]

P.S. Nik Mod 4.0 with a warm thanks for only £5. Bargain. PM me for further details




Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:28:37 PM)

35 out of 100 P-47C pilots polled indicated that Nik should have a live grenade accidently roll under his cot before he could plan another strike mission.




Kereguelen -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:39:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Yes in BTR the limit is 2500. I can tell you this though., When you play BTR you experience TRUE flak.



Innocent question[;)]: Is this (only) a result of the BTR-engine or of the fact that there was "real" flak employed in the ETO (seems to me that the Germans employed more and better flak than the Japanese).

K

(And another innocent remark: and weren't Japanese 105mm AA guns only employed in fixed positions, somewhat heavy calibre to be moved around as we see it in the game...)




Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:45:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

Innocent question[;)]: Is this (only) a result of the BTR-engine or of the fact that there was "real" flak employed in the ETO (seems to me that the Germans employed more and better flak than the Japanese).


innocent answer: what do you mean by "real" flak?

quote:


(And another innocent remark: and weren't Japanese 105mm AA guns only employed in fixed positions, somewhat heavy calibre to be moved around as we see it in the game...)


I wouldn't be suprised. I do know the Japanese player wont have enough to go around [;)]




Kereguelen -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:55:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

innocent answer: what do you mean by "real" flak?



With "real" flak I simply mean that the Germans employed flak in numbers unknown to the Japanese (hmm, Brady would certainly disagree[;)], but according to what I've read, Japan was simply unable to produce similar amounts of AA guns).






Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 7:59:06 PM)

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too [;)]




Speedysteve -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 8:05:54 PM)

Hi K,

With all respect to the Japanese you are comparing premier legaue football against 2nd division with regard to German vs Japanese flak.

This rings true in quantity, quality and tactics of the pieces used.

Regards,

Steven




Apollo11 -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 8:17:47 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckk

Have you checked out Nik's Mod 3.0 Severely restricts 4E's and bombloads and enhances Base AA making low level bombing dangerous.
This along with basically halving transport capacity is making my war much longer[8D]


I know of "Nik's" mod... of course I do... [;)]

But, unfortunately, it contains one bad aspect - dive bombers are now almost useless due to changes...

This is why I would like to see some change in EXE to rectify this in "vanilla" WitP (i.e. original that most players use)!


Leo "Apollo11"




Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 8:24:16 PM)

DB's are not "useless" [:-]

If attacking a very heavily defended AA target, they will suffer greater losses than players are used too however.

Some clarification here. My changes to AA will *NOT* suddenly make every base on the map a hornet's nest. Concentration of high numbers of flak guns will still be necessary. What the mod changes here is that one's efforts to concentrate their AA defences will now yield results vs. what one can see if they look at the Beer Wars AAR (my Allied opponent bombs at 6000 feet.....regardless of whether my base in question has AA LCU's or not)

Bases Like Pearl Harbor which has a high number of flak guns will be dangerous to DB's (which is why they are disabled on turn 1)




Kereguelen -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 8:27:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too [;)]


Hi,

it's not that I disagree with you about the role flak plays in WITP. But I'm not convinced if your approach to that issue is the right one here. I've seen (even) Japanese flak to be quite devastating in PBEM when employed in large numbers. Because of this experience, I'm not sure if the problem (flak not efficient enough) is a result of the game engine or the stats used for AA guns. I know (because I've some pretty good sources about this) that the OOB misses lots of British/Indian/CW African AA units. Even when considering that base forces cover some AA regiments, the numbers of AA guns available, that is, the number of AA guns you can employ with combat units/base forces, do not nearly match the numbers that were available in India from 1942 onwards. Don't know if this is the same with the Japanese (have no valid data about this; but because the Japanese receive lots of base forces it may come close or at least closer to historical figures). In short: To me, it seems that the (underrated) efficiency of flak may be due to the game not having enough AA units. And that would rather be an OOB issue than a question of efficiency of AA guns...

K




Apollo11 -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 8:32:15 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes, the Germans had to produce massive numbers of Flak in order to defend their homeland. Japan, as mentioned, wont have nearly that number. However Japan has enough heavy flak to protect some of her bases. (such as Rabaul which was made a "flak city" historically late in the Solomons campaign)

However in terms of BTR vs WitP, if you concentrate flak at an airfield or base/city, its formidable. Do so in WitP and it's negligable. Thats what my mod addresses. It wont give Japan more flak guns. Allied flak will also be effective. Japanese bombers can bomb at 6000 feet too [;)]


Hi,

it's not that I disagree with you about the role flak plays in WITP. But I'm not convinced if your approach to that issue is the right one here. I've seen (even) Japanese flak to be quite devastating in PBEM when employed in large numbers. Because of this experience, I'm not sure if the problem (flak not efficient enough) is a result of the game engine or the stats used for AA guns. I know (because I've some pretty good sources about this) that the OOB misses lots of British/Indian/CW African AA units. Even when considering that base forces cover some AA regiments, the numbers of AA guns available, that is, the number of AA guns you can employ with combat units/base forces, do not nearly match the numbers that were available in India from 1942 onwards. Don't know if this is the same with the Japanese (have no valid data about this; but because the Japanese receive lots of base forces it may come close or at least closer to historical figures). In short: To me, it seems that the (underrated) efficiency of flak may be due to the game not having enough AA units. And that would rather be an OOB issue than a question of efficiency of AA guns...

K


AA is almost useless now.

Please refer to my comprehensive tests:

"Comprehensive Port bombing testing WitP v1.5 (98 bombers vs. warships and cargo ships)..."

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D856314%26mpage%3D1


Leo "Apollo11"




Nikademus -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 8:33:03 PM)

Completely understand your position. I'm not going to claim that my way is the only correct way. I am confident though that my mod will satisfy alot of player complaints though. I've put alot of effort into it.

My own views on land flak stem all the way back to UV days. I've always felt it was too weak, even in heavy concentrations. I still recall the tests that Frag did long before he became a test manager. BTR has also provided me with a good means for making comparisons using similar numbers of flak.

However in the end the guiding principle of the changes i've made are based largely on what i've observed in the game and also a breakdown of how the mechanics work. Oh...there's also a bit of history thrown in too. For example, in real life, the Japanese bombed Lunga at very high alts to avoid the two batteries of 90mms defending it. You dont need to worry about it in WitP.

So while i understand your viewpoint i have to disagree that its simply a matter of numbers. One should not have to concentrate ridiculous numbers of flak guns in order to deter a low level attack that in another similar wargame would produce results that would get a General cashiered.

All i can say is, give it a try. You may like it. By forcing planes to bomb at more realistic heights, this reduces the hits, allows bases to be more resliant and slows down pace.




Apollo11 -> RE: Question for Mike Wood regarding 4E and 2E level bomber attacks... (10/4/2005 8:35:29 PM)

Hi all,

REPOST Excerpt

quote:


Description:

I created brand new custom scenario for this testing.

This scenarios are "Leo TEST Scenario #116.zip" (for day) and "Leo TEST Scenario #117.zip" (for night) - you can find them here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D856273

There are only 3 islands present: Marcus Island, Wake Island and Midway. Marcus Island is IJN base while Midway is USN base. For this test Wake Island is made Japanese base with both Port and Airbase (and SPS) of 6.

There are 6 Japanese LCU's (1x 1st Army HQ + 5x AA Rgt) at Wake Island together with ships in port.

Weather is always clear.

FoW is OFF.

Two B-29's groups have their default leaders (50's/60's ratings) while their EXP is set to 70 and morale to 90.

The B-29's have to fly 14 HEXes from Midway to Wake Island.

The B-29's attack from 10000ft.

In Japanese held port there are 10x AO, 10x TK and 30x AP ships (all sizes and shapes).

5 consecutive runs of scenario in day (i.e. daytime bombings):


********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 84


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 17 damaged

Japanese Ships
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 2
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
365 casualties reported
Guns lost 15

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
35 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
20 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
11 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
4 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
1 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 89


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
437 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 4
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
18 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
9 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
2 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 88


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 20 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Sata, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Akatsuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 3, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 5, on fire
TK Amatsu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Astuga Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Fujisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Aobasan Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
670 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

Port hits 11
Port fuel hits 5
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
36 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 85


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 15 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Aiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Amagisan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Akagi Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Azuma Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Arabia Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AK Asahisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aikoku Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Argentina Maru, Bomb hits 2
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AP Ayaha Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Arima Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 1
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Tsurumi, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Aratama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Takasaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1
AP Asama Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1

Japanese ground losses:
265 casualties reported
Guns lost 13

Port hits 8
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
19 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
15 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 83


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Atsuta Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Atuta Maru, Bomb hits 1
TK Akebono Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
TK Eiyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
TK Eiho Maru, Bomb hits 2
AP Aki Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Akatuki Maru, Bomb hits 1
AK Aden Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AO Notoro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akasisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akibasan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anrugu Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Naruto, Bomb hits 1
AP Arugun Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizona Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shiretoko, Bomb hits 1
AK Akiura Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Shiriya, Bomb hits 2, on fire
TK Choran Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Africa Maru, Bomb hits 1
AP Achou Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Arizana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anzan Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AO Sunosaki, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
399 casualties reported
Guns lost 19

Port hits 5
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
8 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
6 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
5 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
13 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
10 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
3 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************


1 run of scenario in day (i.e. night bombings) for comparison only:

********************************************************************************

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/02/42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Wake Island , at 82,63


Allied aircraft
B-29 Superfortress x 54


Allied aircraft losses
B-29 Superfortress: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AK Akita Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AO Shioya, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Anyo Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Japanese ground losses:
77 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet
27 x B-29 Superfortress bombing at 10000 feet

********************************************************************************

Discussion:

The devastation of ships in port is enormous... it's like shooting duck in a bathtub.. the only (possibly) good thing is that night time attack produced "only" 3 hits...


Note that Japanese AAA units consist of:

Heavy AA Rgt (5 units used):

105mm AA Gun x12
75mm AA Gun x12
13 mm AAMG (2) x 8


Thus there were (in total):

105mm AA Gun x60
75mm AA Gun x60
13 mm AAMG (2) x40

This is _TREMENDOUS_ number of muzzle power and large and relatively slow bombers flying at 10000 ft (= 3000 m = 3 km) should be easy easy targets...



Leo "Apollo11"




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