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ASW TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy submarines are present...

 
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ASW TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/18/2005 10:20:06 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

In thread (link below) I created scenario for AWS testing:

"Leo's ASW TEST (and scenario) - problems spotted!"

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=967245


During sea ASW testing I, apparently, discovered one rather strange thing... the TF (even if it is ASW TF) would not want to go to HEX you desire to go due to discovered submarines threats (i.e. it would plot totally different path ending in totally different end HEX near by) - 100% weird!

Can someone please verify this?


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. [Edit]
I put word "ASW" in thread title for better understanding of problem (i.e. no problem with all other TFs avoiding detected enemy submaries but ASW TF is meant to kill submarines and it should go wherever user wants regardless of where enemy submaries are detected)...

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 10/23/2005 11:11:25 AM >

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/18/2005 10:31:05 AM   
Slaghtermeyer

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		I remember reading a while back something about transport TFs deliberately going around spotted subs, but this is the first time I'm hearing that it also applies to ASW TFs

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/18/2005 11:52:35 AM   
MarcA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

During sea ASW testing I, apparently, discovered one rather strange thing... the TF (even if it is ASW TF) would not want to go to HEX you desire to go due to discovered submarines threats (i.e. it would plot totally different path ending in totally different end HEX near by) - 100% weird!

Can someone please verify this?



Yes, I have seen this on many occasions. In fact, if you NEED a TF to pass along a specified pass I find it helps to plot its course day to day, or at least keep an eye on what it is doing every day. It is a useful feature because your CS TF's won't just plod over a spotted sub so you don't have to track them all the time or turn off the CS when a sub shows up.

I have seen TF's use evasive courses even when no known sub is in the area. Why I am not exactly sure but I always assumed they were reacting to the sum of known knowledge, i.e. subs further alongthere path, or perhaps from previous reports and radio intercepts.


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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/18/2005 12:12:33 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: mantill

Yes, I have seen this on many occasions. In fact, if you NEED a TF to pass along a specified pass I find it helps to plot its course day to day, or at least keep an eye on what it is doing every day. It is a useful feature because your CS TF's won't just plod over a spotted sub so you don't have to track them all the time or turn off the CS when a sub shows up.

I have seen TF's use evasive courses even when no known sub is in the area. Why I am not exactly sure but I always assumed they were reacting to the sum of known knowledge, i.e. subs further alongthere path, or perhaps from previous reports and radio intercepts.


Exactly!

But what puzzled me was that eveln "ASW TF" was avoiding submarines and didn't want to go where I wanted!


Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to MarcA)
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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/18/2005 3:37:55 PM   
Feinder


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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/18/2005 7:19:55 PM   
Burzmali

 

Posts: 312
Joined: 7/28/2004
From: Boston
Status: offline 		Yet another reason to micromanage everything. Just remember to station your subs just outside the range of your LBA, for every captain knows it is better to face a hundred Bettys than to drive over a single sub.

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/22/2005 7:07:22 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Please check this (one picture tells more than 1000 words )...


Leo "Apollo11"




Attachment (1)

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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 7
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/22/2005 7:57:35 PM   
Halsey

 

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Status: offline 		This has been around since UV.
Nothin new here.

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/22/2005 8:15:40 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

This has been around since UV.
Nothin new here.


Not really...

In UV we didn't have ASW TFs - dedicated TFs to fight submarines which we now have in WitP.

If those ASW TFs can't go where we want to kill submarines then something is wrong isn't it...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/22/2005 9:10:54 PM   
Halsey

 

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 8:37:57 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		That doesn't make any sense to me. I had subs all over the Takao area and didn't have the slightest problem plotting ASW TF's into them. Usually the TF's were going cruise speed with the distance only being one or two hexes. They had a number of hexes that were seemingly without subs if they wished to chicken out.


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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 10:25:01 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
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From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

That doesn't make any sense to me. I had subs all over the Takao area and didn't have the slightest problem plotting ASW TF's into them. Usually the TF's were going cruise speed with the distance only being one or two hexes. They had a number of hexes that were seemingly without subs if they wished to chicken out.


Sometimes it plots correct course but in most cases it plots destination of it's own choosing...

IMHO the ASW TF should go wherever user want and should not be "intimidated" by sighted enemy submarines!


Leo "Apollo11"




Attachment (1)

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 12
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 12:55:49 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		You know, bear with me for a minute, I know this isn't going to sound good coming straight out, but maybe it's adjusting because you're playing retarded. I can think of no other reason when I compare it to what I've encountered. For example, how sane is it for you to plot to a very distant sub, where you see plenty of ones nearby, thereby exposing yourself to more attacks, to say nothing of the difficultly getting back, even for an ASW. The funny thing is that it took a path that included an empty hex, btu by so doing exposed itself to just as much subs as if it had taken your path (although you have no safe hex).

Have you considered the courses of the subs into your difficulties? For example, the plot it has taken, if you were to factor in the courses, assuming it thinks some of those subs will move, may end up with it's redone path being completely clear. In my Takao situations most of the subs are stationary until I hit them, or if not that at least are still there by the time the ASW TF's get there. Just remember, that while you and I know that the subs may be stationary, the computer may just react on the course and the speed (as there is no stop) since there's none of them, mapwise, that say they are stopped.

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 10/23/2005 1:45:25 PM >

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 1:38:57 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

You know, bear with me for a minute, I know this sin't going to sound good coming straight out, but maybe it's adjusting because you're playing retarded. I can think of no other reason when I compare it to what I've encountered. For example, how sane is it for you to plot to a very distant sub, where you see plenty of ones nearby, thereby exposing yourself to more attacks, to say nothing of the difficultly getting back, even for an ASW. The funny thing is that it took a path that included an empty hex, btu by so doing exposed itself to just as much subs as if it had taken your path (although you have no safe hex).

Have you considered the courses of the subs into your difficulties? For example, the plot it has taken, if you were to factor in the courses, assuming it thinks some of those subs will move, may end up with it's redone path being completely clear. In my Takao situations most of the subs are stationary until I hit them, or if not that at least are still there by the time the ASW TF's get there. Just remember, that while you and I know that the subs may be stationary, the computer may just react on the course and the speed (as there is no stop) since there's none of them, mapwise, that say they are stopped.


Unfortunately even if you choose the near-by HEX with closest enemy submarine the path is plotted somewhere else...


Leo "Apollo11"




Attachment (1)

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 14
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 1:50:04 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Well that's the first one that's made any sense when looking at first glance. Clearly it's first priority is to not let you fish for subs in the destination hex. What's even stupider, if it just have to have a clear hex to end up in, why didn't it go to any of the empty ones that were closer to your desire instead. Are you really playing scen15 with no alteration?

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Post #: 15
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 1:54:02 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Based on the thinking that the AI is considering the courses and perhaps the speeds of the sub, what courses do those subs have? Are they all the same?

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 10/23/2005 1:55:12 PM >

(in reply to Charles2222)
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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 1:57:27 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Are you really playing scen15 with no alteration?


No - this is special TEST scenario created from scratch to test various aspects of ASW (both air and ship based) but it shouldn't matter at all...


Please read what I wrote at the beggining of my first message in this thread:

quote:

In thread (link below) I created scenario for AWS testing:

"Leo's ASW TEST (and scenario) - problems spotted!"

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=967245



Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 17
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 1:59:36 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Based on the thinking that the AI is considering the courses and perhaps the speeds of the sub, what courses do those subs have? Are they all the same?


All submaries are stationary and have their target HEX selected as HEX where they are in with "Patrol - Do Not retire". BTW, this is 2nd turn in scenario and submarines didn't move at all...


Leo "Apollo11"


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 18
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 2:01:03 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Okay, but I thought you might had started out with scen15 and edited it to get that surround-sub routine. That would be a test too from what I'm thinking, though it would be less convenient I would assume.

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Post #: 19
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 2:06:46 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Based on the thinking that the AI is considering the courses and perhaps the speeds of the sub, what courses do those subs have? Are they all the same?


All submaries are stationary and have their target HEX selected as HEX where they are in with "Patrol - Do Not retire". BTW, this is 2nd turn in scenario and submarines didn't move at all...


Leo "Apollo11"



No, what I'm talking about is what they look like to the outer game; the map level. IOW, doesn't just placing the cursor over the subs give you a course (when you're playing the IJN)? I'm not sure they always do when seeing Allied subs, but I know I've seen it on surface ships anyway.


< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 10/23/2005 2:09:10 PM >

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 2:07:16 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Okay, but I thought you might had started out with scen15 and edited it to get that surround-sub routine. That would be a test too from what I'm thinking, though it would be less convenient I would assume.


Oh yes I did!

My scenario started as official Scenario #15 and then it was re-edited (map lessened, removed all ships/units/air groups except ones I need)...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 21
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 2:13:19 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		IOW, to see what I'm trying to tell you though it may not have anything to do with this, you have to forget for a moment that the subs are stationary. If the AI had just got through with the turn, and then you saw all those subs, other than having the name of the sub in the same spot every turn you would have no way of knowing they were stationary, they would likely have a course and approximate speed. I'm thinking that though you know exactly where they will be, your plotter starts looking for a clear path, which clearly in the case of the ASW TF is not always such a good idea. I still can't understand it, because I've never had that problem with ASW TF's. My last version was 1.602. You ever see this before 1.602 with ASW TF's?

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 10/23/2005 2:16:13 PM >

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RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 2:29:39 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I still can't understand it, because I've never had that problem with ASW TF's. My last version was 1.602. You ever see this before 1.602 with ASW TF's?


I created the TEST ASW scenario with WitP v1.70 BETA that contained WitP v1.60 data files (i.e. that was the latest OOB changing version - the ones after were EXE only).

Currently I have v1.73 BETA EXE on my PC.

I wanted to create this ASW TEST scenario for long long time but never had time to do it until last weekend...


Also please note that I don't think there were any changes in EXE regarding this for long long time (the v1.7x EXE changes were about ship based ASW depth charging and submarine survival only)...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 23
RE: TF path plotting weirdness when detected enemy subm... - 10/23/2005 2:34:39 PM   
Charles2222


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Status: offline 		Okay.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 24
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