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7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 8:01:30 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
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I originally posted this today on another forum where a thread had angered me a lot, mostly not because of its content specifically, but because of how many times I keep coming across stuff like this� I don�t post all that often anymore and I therefore have a lot I�d like to say to no one person in general�.

Complaint #1: Matrix games cost too much!

I paid $65 for AH�s the Longest Day at a time where most other wargames from AH were priced about $25 - $30. Did I go around saying don�t buy AH games because they charge too much? NO. It was one special �Monster Game�. Maybe the justification was more apparent back then because it was physically more stuff.. But the situation with Matrix is no different. WiTP is ONE game priced that high. And whether or not you can believe that significantly more work went into it or not vs a game half the price there is unmistakable truth in the fact that the game is for a niche of a niche and therefore could never sell in quite the quantities another wargame could (which is already a small enough quantity as it is).

Whether or not each of us thinks wargaming is dying or not� I think we can all agree on the fact that it is not growing in any significant way. A game has to have some remote hope of profitability to generally be made. All you do every time you b!tch about the price of WiTP is put one more nail in the coffin of any future potential games of that complexity and magnitude.

Is that what you really want?

Complaint #2: I�m not paying for the same game again!

No one says you have to and certainly no one is forcing you to. Whether or not you see value in purchasing the game again is up to you. I would try to argue that every dollar you spend on wargaming helps and advances our hobby further, but I know I wouldn�t get very far with that line of reasoning�

Realize that not everyone owns every single Talonsoft title already. I know I don�t. Perhaps because Operational games were never really my favorite and they seemed to have a lot of them. Maybe I had just selected other titles or wargames at the time. But in either case TOAW was one of the few operational level games that I liked. And as I only really had an opportunity to purchase and play TOAW2 as I remember it, I am among those that would love to purchase the complete product and know that it is supported, will work on my system, and will not require me to hunt around for info on how to get it patched and up to snuff.

Not everyone who buys these re-releases will have owned the original game or any Talonsoft game for that matter�

Complaint #3: Matrix is gobbling up all the wargames!

No Major Publisher will even LOOK at a wargame these days. Almost every computer wargame publishing company that ever had a title In stores is now defunct. I personally can�t even count much past half a dozen companies that even publish wargame titles regularly. I�m not going to quite say that Matrix has somehow come to the rescue but, to me, if you�re a fan of computer wargames and you refuse to buy Matrix titles based on whatever reasoning, then your really no fan of wargaming at all.

Why? Because what would you have happen? Matrix goes out of business? That would show them for pricing WiTP so high right? How would that help any of us? Not only would we loose one of an already far too few wargame publishing companies but we would send yet another message to would be start-up or other publishing companies that wargaming simply can�t be a profitable venture. Yeah that�s exactly what we want�

Furthermore, Matrix has supported far more smaller and first-time developers than ANY publisher anywhere near their size has. This is where the future of wargaming lies, there are only so many existing titles out there. If you kill Matrix many of those current and future developers will die off as well�

Complaint #4: Combat Leader is taking FOREVER and will never be completed!

Combat Leader could have been just a remake of SPWAW. Heck some people still claim exactly that. But it set out to be much more than that. It was ambitious yes, probably far too ambitious. But it is easy (and fast) to churn out the same game over and over again. Every OTHER game genre out there has been doing this for years. Why take the time, money, and risk of creating an innovative title when you can simply take a known formula that works, mix things up a bit, and have another game out in months? Why else do you think we see so many versions of Age of Empires/ Command&Conquer/ Doom/etc? Even large development companies get their innovative game ideas turned down regularly because of risk. An Age of Empires clone has a certain guaranteed sell rate based on its much much lower developmental costs.

A fresh new game design takes a LOT more time. There is a certain guaranteed amount of trial and error to it. It�s certainly going to take far longer than a mere clone of something else.

Its main programmer, as I understand it, also has a full time job. Not that uncommon in todays world for wargame developers. If you want to help this not be the case, buy more wargames!

It now looks like it may well be scrapped and started again? Welcome back to the trial and error part. Some things just don�t work out when you set out to do something new and different (and Grand in this case as so many of us have such high hopes for such a title).

I think its commendable, and selfless of Matrix Games to be committed to producing the best possible game regardless of the time required (and hence, in many ways, the cost and effort as well).

Complaint #5: Matrix has too much on its plate already!

Why is it that so many think every single title bearing any association with Matrix Games is being worked on by the same 2 or 3 programmers? Game Publishing companies PUBLISH GAMES, they don�t necessarily make them directly. Sometimes it�s even a completely finished game a publishing company will sign on and publish, having virtually no input on game design, graphics, etc.

Now certainly Matrix IS busy, and may well be starting to be in need of purchasing a bigger plate, but the thought that each new title signed on is somehow robbing from the progress or integrity of the others is ludicrous�

Complaint #6: Matrix has profit, and not the gamer in mind!

I�m not even going to address this one. Because if you�ve read my responses to all the complaints above and would still state this� Well draw your own conclusions�

To the one related statement though, that refers to a preference to have had one or more talonsoft titles released freely as open-source I would say pretty much the same thing I say to those who insist their freebie ports to Cyberboard/Vassal are better than what Wargame Publishers are putting out these days (because they don�t cost anything and were made by wargamers for wargamers (With the gamer in mind!))�

And I would say..NOW WHO IS BEING GREEDY? Yes you are. You want it for free. Who cares about the future of our hobby as long as I don�t have to shell out cash for anything? It is no different. The world is built on money. You want to save it, others want you to spend it.

And votes with your dollar therefore are some of the most powerful votes. But as I�ve said earlier why on earth would you want to vote against wargaming?

Complaint #7: Matrix Games is trying to exploit free laborers!

God forbid you help a company like Matrix because they can make some money off your efforts? Isn�t that exactly what playtesting has been since the beginning of time? I know when I playtested for Avalon Hill I didn�t get paid and I�d like to think they made a lot more money because of my efforts. In that way I helped the hobby I loved and had a great time doing it. I also helped a game I loved be that much better so it could be enjoyed by that many more people with the same hobby as myself.

Why necessarily pay people for something that other equally, if not more qualified people will do for free? Simply because they have strong opinions on the game and perhaps value the early involvement and sense of accomplishment that comes out of being part of a project like that.

Complaint #8 You�re a Matrix Fan-Boy!

If you call me this then it is likely because you have no reasonable dispute for any of the above. You should also know that several Matrix titles are included in my original disappointment in many wargames today. But I do feel that Matrix�s heart is in the right place, and has the wargamer in mind to the absolute greatest extent possible for a company that has to be and/or become profitable. I believe there are a few key differences with Matrix, which I�ve previously pointed out elsewhere in this post, but ALL publishers and developers of wargames I try to support. Even certain members of Battlefront�s staff, who at times seem to be oddly compelled to badmouth Matrix.

And In Summary!

As a few of you may know, I�ve been developing my own wargames for the past year now. I have a well paying full-time job and have absolutely no real reason I am forced to develop wargames. And even though I do plan on making money, there are probably far quicker and easier ways in which I could do so. While I am sure that may come across to some as a bit arrogant, it is stated as background and preface to the following:

If I didn�t know better I�d think all wargamers were nothing but a bunch of grumpy, and broke, former fans of the hobby. It is so disheartening to continually read how no one seems happy with anything currently happening in this hobby. Maybe everyone is still holding grudges from what happened to Avalon Hill, I don�t know. But it sure doesn�t seem like much of a positive attitude bunch. Perhaps forums by definition are the place where people come to b!tch, as everyone else is hopefully actually busy happily playing wargames.

Now me? I use to b!tch too. One need only read my original Game Design Philosophy to realize I am not that happy with a lot of games out there. But I�d like to think that I rose above that and decided to actually do something about it.. Hence I started my own Game Development Company.

Now certainly everyone is not going to have the knowledge, the know-how, the money, or even the time to do so but you can further the hobby in other ways.

If nothing else, be SUPPORTIVE of ALL wargame developers and ALL wargame publishers that are out there. If for no other reason than that it can only indirectly help the emergence of other wargame developers and publishers and the ultimate growth of the hobby. I know I�m not the only developer that has on occasion wondered why he even bothers for what at times appears as such an ungrateful bunch.........

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Post #: 1

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 8:40:35 AM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
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Yah. I got the same 11 complaints.

All I could say is, if you gotta pay 80 bucks for a game, it at least ought to work.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 2

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 9:45:52 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Yah. I got the same 11 complaints.

All I could say is, if you gotta pay 80 bucks for a game, it at least ought to work.

Please understand this response is not directed at you specifically or any one person but I feel that members of the WiTP fanbase are amongst the most guilty of some of the things I've stated above.

How is it helpful to spread the opinion that WiTP is completely broken? (Especially on other sites?)

That only serves to limit the number of new buyers and players for the game which in turn reduces the overall continued profitability of the game which helps dictate whether certain bugs are worth fixing in the first place. It also hurts Matrix's image which in turn can potentially hurt its work on other games including one I know you to be greatly looking forward too. Perhaps the thought is to "Force Matrix to Fix the Game". I'm sure the intentions were in fact mostly good. But you all might just "Force Matrix out of business" if you keep it up. And I don't think any of the WiTP fans want that.

Furthermore I congratulate said community on achieving a Complete Total Victory in convincing not just 2by3 and not just Matrix but many many other developers and publishers (if not every last one) that Monster Computer Wargames are NOT the way to go. I'm sure this is also exactly what the WiTP community wants...

The wargaming world wanted such a monster, and b!tched for years until they got what I feel is WAY BEYOND what you could have hoped for in the first place in regards to depth, detail, and complexity.

Then they had to nitpick every last little detail of the game.

Now I'm not going to say that there is nothing wrong with the game, and nothing that still needs to be fixed, but nothing has been gained from the way many in the community have acted. In fact, much much more of value has been lost.

I do personally now believe that any similar such sized game to WiTP HAS to fail. With that much detail amongst an audience, when pooled together, that is guaranteed to know far more than a small development team could... how can you even come close to getting every last little aspect right? In a game that detailed abstraction of virtually any element "appears" to be in violation of the game. If an element is included, if only for completeness, and allowed to have even the most minimal effect on outcome it damned well better be entirely 100% historically accurate. Right?

The mere vast amount of potential for errors in all that complexity leads to a codebase that is guaranteed to not be completely serviceable in any profitable way even were the game to cost $180.00.

PS. If your going to debate me back on whether a lot of bugs (or severe, game crippling or whatever kind) exist in WiTP or not then you have missed the point of this and my previous post.

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Post #: 3

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 11:44:38 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
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In all of my dealings with the staff from Matrix I have found them to be very supportive and quick to respond.

I choose to support/buy from Matrix because they supply what I want........and I will buy from ANY other company that sells a product that I want also.

Matrix seems to me to be one of the FEW game producers that is working to increase the range of wargames for the playing and paying public.

Matrix supports the gaming world with a top notch forum that allows like minded people to gather and converse.

I challenge ANYONE to buy a game that does not have problem.

I have worked as an unpayed tester because I wanted to and have done some with two other game producers. It gives me the chance to get the game for free and before it is released to the general public. No one forced me to and I was free to move on at any stage.

I cannot stress enough how much enjoyment and "bang for my buck" that I have gotten from the Matrix company and also the number of very good friendships that have been formed by meeting people on this forum, up to and including people opening their homes to me when I have traveled overseas.

The Raver has spoken !

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 4

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 1:55:29 PM

Greyshaft

Posts: 2252
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

The bit I don't understand is how Matrix is forcing you:

1. to buy Matrix Games;
2. to do beta testing;
3. to participate in this Forum at all.

Perhaps you could clear up those points for me?

_____________________________

/Greyshaft

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Post #: 5

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 2:29:22 PM

wodin

Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline

I think Matrix is doing a fantastic job and wargaming is far better off with them being around.

I do moan abit but in no way am I anti Matrix.

Well said Veldor.

P.S Veldor I havent seen you around for awhile good to see your game is still in development I thought it had fallen by the wayside.

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Post #: 6

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 3:27:09 PM

RevRick

Posts: 2617
Joined: 9/16/2000
From: Thomasville, GA
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I have been in wargaming since I was twelve - or 42 years. I have even tried on occasion to get involved in the testing - but with my present job, that becomes almost an impossibility. I have played almost every war game AH ever put out, and still own most of them. I have never enjoyed a game as much as WitP - even if it isn't perfect. BUT, even more important is the constant communication between Matrix and it's customers. I spent a lot more dollars for a lot less fun trying to finagle various kinds of fish either onto the pier or into the boat, and still have most of that stuff lying around unused. There is almost never a day I don't spend at least an hour (usually at some really off the wall time) looking at WitP - and that is because Matrix has worked it's collective tookuses off trying to satisfy a very small group of diehard grogs who enjoy the genre and the specific operational theater at this level of detail and find it absolutely refreshing to find a game publisher/designer who responds like Matrix. So, if someone wants to badmouth Matrix, that puts them in good company - like those who badmouth General Motors, IBM, Microsoft, the Navy, the NFL, and a couple of million other organizations. Me, even when it doesn't work exactly as I would like, I'm happy with WitP.

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Post #: 7

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 7:45:49 PM

gunny

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OT.....Veldor I linked to your sig and was happy to see sniper ambush is still being worked on, and the news column has been recently updated.

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Post #: 8

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 8:07:17 PM

Tankerace

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From: Stillwater, OK, United States
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quote:

2. to do beta testing;

That part I understand, I mean we all know I have the WPO Beta team locked up at gunpoint at some secret point in the mountains beta testing WPO

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Post #: 9

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 9:23:35 PM

Terminus

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From: Denmark
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You wouldn't believe how he treats us...

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Post #: 10

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/15/2005 9:55:09 PM

Hanal

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Joined: 11/1/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny

OT.....Veldor I linked to your sig and was happy to see sniper ambush is still being worked on, and the news column has been recently updated.

Yes, this is indeed good news!.....Perhaps the forum will be opened up again as we anticipate Sniper Ambush!

(in reply to gunny)

Post #: 11

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/16/2005 2:30:36 AM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
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Veldor, for me and I hope for many who visit Matrix forums complaints are always put in perspective. I weigh each one (some let their emotions get the best of them and shoot of their pistol before they think the reply through). They do not change my opinion of Matrix games (which is very high, by the way).

I'll have to agree with you on complaints of WitP or Matrix in other sites does not help sell the game/games to others.

Yes, your point is understood and well taken the hobby needs more positive support and constructive criticism only. The emotional outbursts and tyraids don't help the image of the game/games in question.

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Post #: 12

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/16/2005 8:39:01 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

Good Job Veldor! Very happy to see you back again and equally happy to hear that you are making progress with your game.

I hope your posting deters some of the perpetual Matrix Bashers out there.

Personally, I have to say that Matrix is the greatest thing going in wargaming right now. They are providing a large variety of unique titles to the hobby and, as pointed out earlier, supporting new developers and concepts.

I'm really tired of hearing some of the same old negative complaints about WiTP. I've more than gotten my money's worth out of it and I never expected perfection in a project of that size and scope.

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My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

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Post #: 13

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/17/2005 1:41:14 AM

pasternakski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor
How is it helpful to spread the opinion that WiTP is completely broken?

Look, Veldor. If you had been around here back in the UV development days, you would recognize me as having been one of the staunchest supporters of Matrix/2by3 and their efforts.

I am not here to debate you or anyone else about whether UV and WitP were so poorly executed and supported that they are unplayable. That just happens to be how I feel about it, and I am not going to pretend that I am happy about it.

As far as computer wargame design is concerned, if it doesn't get any better soon, I am going to say "the hell with it." The games I have sampled in recent times, including products marketed by Matrix, are generally bad designs and buggy failures. I have neither time nor money to subsidize the poor quality of what I am seeing (and buying, until I get to the point where I stop).

So, I'm glad y'all feel like you got your money's worth and more out of WitP. I just don't happen to agree with you, and, like a good little consumer, I will vote with my money.

I argued long and hard that UV and WitP needed to stay true to a unified, initial design and not try to pander to the "mod crowd" and those who clamor for results and features not contemplated by the designer and the design team. Build a game that performs solidly and fulfills the design goals. That is "design integrity" to me, and it's the approach that led to monumental successes like Civilization I and II, Master of Orion, and Railroad Tycoon 3. WitP started going wrong when it became apparent that Grigsby's idea was, "Well, I'll stroll through this, use some code from my old designs, dress it up, and everything will be fine." Matrix staff has stated on these forums that he just simply didn't know what he was getting himself into. Look at some of the ad hoc design decisions. You are responsible for assigning such tactical details as air mission altitude, yet you cannot select specific naval task force targets (even though you do select all other types). How can you be at all happy with the air search "system?" 360 degree full coverage to maximum range, ignoring the severe historical limitations on available aircraft that made it necessary to assign restricted air search arcs?

Then, what was supposedly decided on got tossed in order to build in features whined for in these forums. The whole game, out of whack as it was from the outset, went completely wacky at that point for me - I say again, for me. And, for me, when the game trumpets that "leaders are vitally important," I see leaders of historical significance vanish from the game and leaders from one side's ships being replaced by leaders from the other side's army and air forces, I believe that there's something smelly going on. These leader bugs remain unfixed, and many of Matrix apologists here can say, "Oh, I think it's a great game," and "You can't expect a game this big and complex to be perfect," and "I just ignore that," and "Well, if you bitch about what's wrong, computer wargame companies might go out of business."

I say, if they can't do any better than this, they deserve to go out of business. Thankfully, Matrix has signed some good designers who produce good products (non-wargame to this point), but I worry about such projects as GoA and EiA and wonder what that portends.

Well. Enough of that. I will just close by stating once again that I am a dissatisfied customer with regard to the whole UV/WitP product line. I'm glad they won't be using THAT engine any more. Of course, the next thing I saw was an Axis and Allies clone with a little chrome ...

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 14

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/17/2005 1:51:48 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
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From: Snowflake, Arizona
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I'm not saying you aren't completely right in what you say, but you keep saying it over and over and over again in topic after topic after topic... it just gets tiresome after awhile. If I were you, I'd just walk away from WiTP and ignore it in the future.

If anyone at Matrix is going to take your concerns into account in future endeavors, I'm sure they already are completely aware of your point of view. If you have something new to offer, then by all means, plunge into the fray.

Not to be too critical, but I certainly understand Veldor's frustration and must express my own similar feelings. Please take this as a friendly criticism to someone who has a lot of offer of a positive nature and who is a key veteran of this forum.

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Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

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Post #: 15

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/17/2005 3:26:51 AM

Fred98

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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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Well said Veldor

As for Uncommon Valour I rekon its a terific game!

As for War in the Pacific I reckon it too is a terrific game!

But War in the Pacifc is a monster! Even the smaller scenarios are monsters! And so I don't actually play the game.

We live and learn. Monster games are not for me!

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Post #: 16

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/17/2005 3:31:34 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

quote:

Look, Veldor. If you had been around here back in the UV development days, you would recognize me as having been one of the staunchest supporters of Matrix/2by3 and their efforts.

I've been around (perhaps not always posting) since the very beginning. Join dates mean nothing.. My account over at wargamer has been deleted and recreated more times than I can count in an attempt to fix my password bug there which, unlike Matrix here where the first fix fixed it, continued to be broken for an almost 2 year period until a month or so ago when it finally got fixed for me..

Anyway..

As I remember it UV wasn't even planned at first it was just the War in the Pacific game..but I could be fuzzy on that.

quote:

I am not here to debate you or anyone else about whether UV and WitP were so poorly executed and supported that they are unplayable. That just happens to be how I feel about it, and I am not going to pretend that I am happy about it.

Even if you are 100% correct what is gained by continuing to spread that message here and elsewhere?

quote:

As far as computer wargame design is concerned, if it doesn't get any better soon, I am going to say "the hell with it." The games I have sampled in recent times, including products marketed by Matrix, are generally bad designs and buggy failures. I have neither time nor money to subsidize the poor quality of what I am seeing (and buying, until I get to the point where I stop).

Even where it isn't a new crowd making wargames, its an old crowd making them in a different world under different rules. It's going to take time for things to evolve. Kill it now and you'll never get to see what the future might hold...

quote:

So, I'm glad y'all feel like you got your money's worth and more out of WitP. I just don't happen to agree with you, and, like a good little consumer, I will vote with my money.

Do you still play it? I don't see how you can call a game with design decisions you dont agree with "broken". And as far as the leader bug goes, does this really affect play significantly the few times it might happen? But I go back to.. Do you still play it? Most any game any gamer "loves" that gamer also "hates" because they have become so intimately familiar with it that they are aware of all its flaws. It's not unlike the glass half full or half empty approach. I can find faults with just about any game I've played.

quote:

I say, if they can't do any better than this, they deserve to go out of business.

Haven't heard of any developer that actually set out to make a bad game or a buggy one. I do know that I've played many EA games with budgets in the multi-millions that had severe game crippling bugs that took forever to fix or were ultimately never fully fixed.

I doubt 2by3 is bound by anything to Matrix that forces them to fix bugs at this stage. At some point they have to focus on making new games. Its not as if they have hundreds on staff. Either way this is an issue for 2by3.
Why punish Matrix for it and all the other developers they currently support?

quote:

Thankfully, Matrix has signed some good designers who produce good products (non-wargame to this point), but I worry about such projects as GoA and EiA and wonder what that portends.

You seem to have a lot of time and opinions. Why not get involved more deeply in the design of a game? If you fail at it you'll have even greater respect for how difficult it is and if you succeed then your problems solved...

AND TO EVERYONE:

I'm very happy most here saw the greater point I was trying to make. Thank you all.

I have been guilty of some of those things in the past myself, as has probably everyone at times..

I therefore can understand and sympathize with where that kind of approach comes from but think it ill serves the hobby and community as a whole.

And simply wish I could see less of that.

So, if nothing else, forum visits might be more pleasant.

And, of course, so that there are ultimately still forums like this one for me to visit at all..

Thanks.

_____________________________

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Post #: 17

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/17/2005 11:20:45 PM

pasternakski

Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I'm not saying you aren't completely right in what you say, but you keep saying it over and over and over again in topic after topic after topic... it just gets tiresome after awhile. If I were you, I'd just walk away from WiTP and ignore it in the future.

If anyone at Matrix is going to take your concerns into account in future endeavors, I'm sure they already are completely aware of your point of view. If you have something new to offer, then by all means, plunge into the fray.

Not to be too critical, but I certainly understand Veldor's frustration and must express my own similar feelings. Please take this as a friendly criticism to someone who has a lot of offer of a positive nature and who is a key veteran of this forum.

What nonsense. I come to the defense of my clearly stated position after being attacked by innuendo for holding it, and I get further criticism for repeating myself. I will say it one more time: this ain't no "warm and fuzzies" club. This is business. My 80 bucks bought me just as much air time as anyone else, and if I feel that the product fell short not only of being perfect, but even of being marketable, I'm going to say so. I am still a Matrix customer, but I have learned to be wary. If my comments have any lingering value, I hope it will be to help others avoid expensive disappointments and to serve notice on Matrix and other computer wargame vendors that not all of us are willing to just sit here and shell out for any and all junkware that comes along. Seen in that light, I think there is room to argue that constructive criticism based on experience with, and reasoned analysis of, the product's merits will have a far more positive effect than mere sycophantic fawning.

You like it, fine. Play the dumb thing. Veldor doesn't need to act like I'm some miscreant who wandered in here shooting his mouth off about what a POS Matrix is. Anyone who has followed what I have had to say over the past several years knows better. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending everything's wonderful with comments like "Matrix is the best thing going" is nothing to the point for this consumer.

"Gee, NASA is, like, the GINCHIEST, man! So what if they knock off your occasional astronaut, I STILL groove on that far out space shuttle thingy!"

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 18

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/19/2005 9:12:03 AM

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
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I'm happy with Matrix. Ive had good service from those guys and they will have my money again. it's not from being a fanboy of whatever, if they didn't perform up to my standards I would go somewhere else. They give me what I want, turn based games that don't require a high end machine to play.

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After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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Post #: 19

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 6:01:52 AM

wobbly

Posts: 1095
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Status: offline

Hi all

I hadn't been out rowing recently so I thought I'd add my oar to the water.

Pasternakski has his opinion and we must all recognise it. As he also states he paid his 80 bucks and so that gives him the right to vent his spleen. We also ask him to just bugger off and stop restating his opinion - once is enough - and if he doesn't like the idea just don't read it. Well I think that is probably the attitude we should take about his posts. The people that are reading these forums are usually already wargamers so I don't think he will frighten us away. If you don't agree with what he says - don't read it! If you don't agree but want to voice your opinion that he is wrong - go ahead! Free speech blah blah blah

In MY OPINION what Pasternakski wants is the "War in the Pacific" - real life, control over everything in some way, shape or form. I am not a programmer but I imagine every feature requires programming, art, balance, bug testing et al. The size of the team doing the testing has to have baring on how functional this turns out to be.

"I hate buggy software and it should be fully functional out of the box": Absolutely agree, in a perfect world. I just have never seen it happen - Microsoft don't patch their stuff do they -nah it's faultless... and how many testers/developers do they have on their team??? This isn't restricted to game creation - all products tend to have something wrong with them and this is another reason you get version 2, 3 et al. Car manufacturers create machines that are so poor they explode on impacts of less than 30 miles an hour, or roll over on a small incline - yet they have engineers and test centres and all manner of failure-finders due to the size of their industry.

So now extrapolate that size downwards to the team that gave us WitP. I just can't get too angry about the bugs in it - they were ALWAYS going to happen. I am also happy with the features we do have and there-in lies the difference between you and me (and maybe others here) everything I get I am chuffed at having.

I would love to be able to control how a fleet is organised on the water and have this have impact upon how attacks strike it - both aerial and surface combat - but I am realistic that this is likely to be a massive amount of development and will never happen. I think this is much the same as your wish to have specific naval strikes allowed. I'd love to have some contorl over this but Matrix have had to come to a design decision to exclude it. I can only imagine it is too much effort to complete.

Finally - the price. $80 is alot to pay for a computer game. Recently I paid less than that for dungeon seige 2. I finised the game in 11 hours or so of playing. I can start again and go back and have my main player be one of the other creatures but I've had those in my game anyway so it is not as if this is real replayability. I don't know whether it is the type of game WitP is, but I have played UV and WitP now for about 3 years solid. Hiccups and lack of features-I-may-want aside; that is value for money!

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Post #: 20

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 7:10:28 AM

Reiryc

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
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quote:

Wobbly: As he also states he paid his 80 bucks and so that gives him the right to vent his spleen

I'm curious, but where do you get this idea from?

At the battlefront forums for instance, the makes of CM are up front that buying the game does not give anyone anything more than just the game. The forums are available at the forum owners discretion regardless of what was bought. Tough sounding, but truthful.

I see nothing different in my eula's from matrix games that gives me or anyone else the 'right to vent our spleen' here because we buy any of their games, do you?

quote:

I don't know whether it is the type of game WitP is, but I have played UV and WitP now for about 3 years solid. Hiccups and lack of features-I-may-want aside; that is value for money!

Damn skippy!

< Message edited by Reiryc -- 10/23/2005 7:13:40 AM >

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Post #: 21

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 8:12:46 AM

pasternakski

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Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbly
Pasternakski has his opinion and we must all recognise it. As he also states he paid his 80 bucks and so that gives him the right to vent his spleen.

I said nothing of the kind. Please be so kind as to read and understand what I actually say before you summarily join forces with some imaginary band of heroes and tell me to "bugger off."

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to wobbly)

Post #: 22

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 8:27:47 AM

Larac

Posts: 250
Joined: 9/5/2004
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My concern is not with WitP, but another game LnL Band of Heroes

It is a decent rule set and has a great counter set, but the maps almost hurt my eyes to look at.

I've brought it up as have others, the answer we we given was live with it.

Seems a bit off for a company that "has thier heart in the right spot"

I have a few products from Matrix, but unless it is something that really gets great reviews, I'll be wary now of it being ok for the most part, but something makes it unplayable.

The higher prices are expected, but when you tell your customer to "Get Used to it", instead of offering some type of solution.
Yes, I listed many even paying for new boards, or just give the base map out without any hexs and let us overlay what we want, no response to any of that.

They are running out customers like they have no issues making enough money, which they keep saying is not the case thus the higher prices.

All I want is a map I can use without it giving me a head ache.

Lee

(in reply to Reiryc)

Post #: 23

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 9:24:31 AM

Veldor

Posts: 1531
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Larac

My concern is not with WitP, but another game LnL Band of Heroes

It is a decent rule set and has a great counter set, but the maps almost hurt my eyes to look at.

I've brought it up as have others, the answer we we given was live with it.

Seems a bit off for a company that "has thier heart in the right spot"

Well if it were a computer game it would be a lot simpler to toggle hex halos on/off but I am sure there are considerable costs and complexities for such an option in a boardgame.

quote:

I have a few products from Matrix, but unless it is something that really gets great reviews, I'll be wary now of it being ok for the most part, but something makes it unplayable.

This opinion is based on one thing you dislike about one product? Or have the other products you've purchased from Matrix had something that made them unplayable as well?

quote:

The higher prices are expected, but when you tell your customer to "Get Used to it", instead of offering some type of solution.
Yes, I listed many even paying for new boards, or just give the base map out without any hexs and let us overlay what we want, no response to any of that.

They are running out customers like they have no issues making enough money, which they keep saying is not the case thus the higher prices.

All I want is a map I can use without it giving me a head ache.

What exactly gives you a headache? The higher contrast of having an essentially white hexgrid instead of black? Plenty of boardgames back in the day had white hex grids. I can't see how you can fault what is essentially an artistic choice and is shown well in all the pictures of the game.

The only real objection with this item that I'd agree with is the fact that the mere thickness of the hexgrid with halo obscures certain terrain, specifically walls and hedges. But did anyone ever consider that the problem might not be with the halos but rather that the walls and hedges aren't drawn thicker? Such a solution wouldn't alter the original artistic choice (though probably a little "lets not look too much like SL" went into that choice as well). Don't know I think it looks distinctive and unique as is.

My prefered solution would leave the halos and make the terrain it hides wider.

I think Matrix should do a print of the mapboards as I prefer them. Maybe they could come up with a detailed order form and we could all just get our own custom mapboards.

I want mine with lime green halos, triangular hex dots, thicker hedges and walls, and printed on simulated or real parchment paper on a velvet lined board.

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Post #: 24

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 10:34:43 AM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

Hmmm.... just figured out how to add someone to my "blocked list"

Peace returns (at least to my computer).

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Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

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Post #: 25

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 11:19:25 AM

wobbly

Posts: 1095
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Status: offline

quote:

I said nothing of the kind. Please be so kind as to read and understand what I actually say before you summarily join forces with some imaginary band of heroes and tell me to "bugger off."

Well Touche. I never told you to "bugger off" but was quoting - granted not verbatim - the feeling of other posters who, I think you'll agree, would rather you stopped posting so negatively. It was they that would like you to "bugger off".

You also appear to have misinterpreted me. I think you should be allowed to complain until you're blue in the face - or get blisters on your fingers - it is up to others to listen to your opinion. The problem is that it comes over as trollish.

I wanted a bit of realism in the attitude. This is a small group trying to simulate an incredibly complex scenario. The fact there is a list of bugs, wishes and enhancements is completely understandable, but with such a large project there were always going to be things missed. It is difficult to demand the quality control when the topic is so abstract.

They are still putting out patches despite only new sales providing extra money.

I think I am just happy someone tried to do it and that it is as functional as it is. Having no vectored searches and inability to target specific naval targets or task forces does not kill the game for me! It was a design decision and I live with it.

Reiryc: we'll agree to disagree about the right to be unhappy with the product on offer, or more, to make that opinion public.

Sad isn't it how long I've played these bloody games - my wife has never been impressed with my infatuation.

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Post #: 26

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 9:24:06 PM

rhondabrwn

Posts: 2570
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Snowflake, Arizona
Status: offline

"Sad isn't it how long I've played these bloody games - my wife has never been impressed with my infatuation".

We really do have to keep things in perspective and never lose sight of the fact that there is a real world outside your window that is deserving of our attention.

I sympathize with your wife

Have you tried introducing her to one of the Civilization games? We can get just as addicted to "Goddess Games" played in a non-violent, defensive, cooperative manner as any guy. The challenge of building a civilization is always appealing.

Of course, on a bad PMS day you could get her to log in to the forum and take on Pasternakski

Ah... scratch that idea... no one deserves that!

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Love & Peace,

Far Dareis Mai

My old Piczo site seems to be gone, so no more Navajo Nation pics :(

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Post #: 27

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/23/2005 11:59:23 PM

pasternakski

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Joined: 6/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn
Of course, on a bad PMS day you could get her to log in to the forum and take on Pasternakski

Ah... scratch that idea... no one deserves that!

How about you knock off the personal slights and insults?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to rhondabrwn)

Post #: 28

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/24/2005 1:39:35 AM

Hertston

Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I sympathize with your wife Have you tried introducing her to one of the Civilization games? We can get just as addicted to "Goddess Games" played in a non-violent, defensive, cooperative manner as any guy. The challenge of building a civilization is always appealing.

Worth a go, but I failed miserably. I've tried Mrs Herts on everything. She was never going to like anything violent, which is fair enough, but I've tried civilization-building games, god games, puzzle games, classic games (Clue, Monopoly, Maj Jong, etc) and all she ever plays is Freecell. Endlessly.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 10/24/2005 1:44:32 AM >

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Post #: 29

RE: 7 Reasons Why I Hate Matrix Games! - 10/24/2005 2:17:41 AM

Larac

Posts: 250
Joined: 9/5/2004
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But the maps DO make it hard for me to play what looks like a great game.

I have offered to buy it, to buy redone maps, or come to some other solution, as has others.

The answers we got back were not how a company that gives any concern to customers reacts.

The saddest part is that it looks like there was a great amount spent to create the maps, The 1st game was about 49, this game was 70+, the main changes the maps. So if they cost the end user an extra 10-20 bucks, they should be clear, and usable.

I lose walls, hedges, also when I lay the map out all I can see is white hexes I have to look hard to see past the hex layout.

So that is why I and others, asked for someting to fix it.

New maps we could buy, release the maps with no over lay so that we could overlay our own and have maps that we could enjoy the game with. Also then we could also enjoy the art work on the map.

So if they treat me after getting my money this way, why do they belive I will welcome other offerings?

For in my time with them they are 2 Win 1 Lost a very bad record, and a little tact or perhaps thinking before they spoke, would have helped to find a solution.

I am not saying they are terrible, I am saying they dropped the ball, and then acted like there was no issue.

If they will do it once to me, I have to expect them to do it again.

Lee

(in reply to Veldor)

Post #: 30