WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (Full Version)

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Cpt.Buckmaster -> WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 12:34:51 AM)

Just an idear that's been bouncing around in my head for a sequel. Maybe you guys have had 14 threads about something like this before, maybe not... but this web page had me thinking:

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj01/win01/record.html

I know this is just wishful thinking, but it'd be kindof fun to play a version where all the modern technology is available.

Would this work? Could the sides be matched up evenly enough? Just like WWII, it would take quite a while for the U.S. (and allies) to bring her full capability to bear while China runs around taking land at will.

What could be some objectives for modern China?

South Korea? Taiwan?...Japan?



sfbaytf -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 12:42:48 AM)

Question is how would Wal-Mart fit into the game?



niceguy2005 -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 12:50:08 AM)

Interesting idea. You've played the Harpoon series I assume?

This one actually hits a little close to home for me. You know, I have read that the Pentagon has a report that says that the Chinese military leaders believe that war with the west is inevitable - hence the growing militarism and the recent concern over Europe's plans to sell arms to China. My intent in mentioning this is NOT, I REPEAT NOT to start a political thread, only to say, that I'm not sure I would want to play a game the encouraged such a conflict.

As for goals, you can certainly say Taiwan and possibly southeast asia. I think you would also need a better map detailing central asia. This is one of the last areas of vast untapped natural resources and one that China would want very badly.



sfbaytf -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 12:58:05 AM)

Anyone remember Peoples General. I thought it was pretty entertaining.



Captain Cruft -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 2:37:52 AM)

I don't think the WitP engine could handle the whole missile aspect.

Nice thought though :)



Ron Saueracker -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 4:00:26 AM)

No wonder the Chinese, North Koreans etc are friggin paranoid about you guys! Nothing like making 1st person shooters vs non fictional target nations, eh? Kinda like Mein Kamph for the XBOX.[8D]



dtravel -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 4:41:38 AM)

Electronics Warfare, missiles, air-to-air refueling, the real airlift capacity of the combatants. Game engine can't even come close to handling it, they'd have to start from scratch. Nuclear powered ships and cruising SYS damage? Ya, its the impurity of the sea water that they pump into the reactors that's the culprit, ya betcha. [:'(]



Admiral DadMan -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 5:12:24 AM)

But if you had CVN Nimitz vs the Chinese CVN, would they still react?



Ron Saueracker -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 5:21:30 AM)

I've always wanted to play a Harpoon like sim based on a fictional late 1950s conflict. All those cool first generation Cold War toys.



skrewball -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 6:04:13 AM)

Niceguy2005, Don't forget that at one point in history we believed that a conflict with the USSR was an inevitablilty. ANd we know how that turned out. I am sure that sooner or later the Chinese population would force changes.

To the game idea, I am sure that it would be horribly unbalanced. 1,000,000 man army vs. 250,000 (not counting USMC, AF or USN) man army?



dtravel -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 8:37:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral DadMan

But if you had CVN Nimitz vs the Chinese CVN, would they still react?


Two questions.

1) The Nimitz from RL or the Nimitz from 'The Final Countdown'?

2) What Chinese CVN?

[:D]




Berkut -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 8:58:40 AM)

How could you make it balanced?

Chian may ahve 1,000,000 men, but they are all in China, and there they will stay.

It won't take any time for the USN to build up, they are already there. And a single US CVGN group pretty much seals the deal, not to mention the other 3 or 4 we would ahve there in a matter of weeks.

War with China might be inevitable, but a naval war is not, because the Chinese are not that stupid.



BlackVoid -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 12:20:52 PM)

I really loved Harpoon, I wish the plug was not pulled on the sequel.

As for a war against China - it is very unlikely. US ground troops in Asia? Bad idea. On the seas China is totally outclassed atm. Even if there is a war, a western trade embargo would pretty much ruin China.



doktorblood -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 12:22:10 PM)

I don't think that the USN wants any part of a deal like that. I don't think that they would send carrier groups anywhere near the straights. Too many Chinese aircraft, Yakhount Sunburns and Oniks in there. Just send in a bunch of Subs to stop a Taiwan invasion.



Blackhorse -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 4:21:36 PM)

The only (remote) potential for a war between China and the USA in the next several decades is if the Chinese decide to invade Taiwan.

China is an "expanding" power, but it still has lots of empty room in its resource-rich West, and a lot of demographic reasons to expand there. 90% of Chinese are ethnic "Han" Chinese, but nearly all of them live east of Xian. In the western half of the country, 50% of the population are potentially troublesome ethnic minorities. The government of China is following the tradition of US news magnate Horace Greely by urging the Han to "Go West, young man."

China's recent past -- and potential future -- military clashes with India, Vietnam and Russia were border disputes. Unlike Hitler's Germany, China does not have ambitions to conquer vast new territories; China has every reason to avoid adding new restive minorities to its rule.

Regaining Taiwan is an emotional rallying-point for Chinese, regardless of ideology, and it is possible that a failing government in Beijing could launch an invasion to divert public attention from its own failings (see: Argentina: Falkands).

But, IMHO, domestic problems would have to be very far along for China to invade Taiwan without caring about the US reaction. Economically, the USA and China are actually allies: the Chinese are kindly absorbing the inflationary impact of the USA's budget and trade deficits, and providing low-cost goods to American consumers; in return, America's consumers are buying what China produces, and fueling its rapid economic growth.




Tom Hunter -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 7:15:21 PM)

If Tom Clancy can write about a contemporary war between the USA and Japan then I suppose we can theorize about China.

But I doubt it would really be an interesting game. Sort of like a Napoleonic war game between the British and the French. Most of the time they just look at eachother, every once in a while real combat breaks out.

Of course this is a fantasy, so you can do what ever your want. Why not start the US army in Mongolia and have it try to escape? Sort of like the Chonsin Reservior battles in Korea, with a little bit of the March of the 10,000 thrown in.

Even better you could start the Chinese army in North Dakota and have it try to escape too.

The Americans would have to fight there way out, and the Chinese would have to get the troops home before they realized that melting into a population with a 1 to 1 male to female ratio and a much higher standard of living is prefferable to working like a slave for 3 dollars a month in the Peoples Liberation Army.

[:D]



Widell -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 7:46:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

I really loved Harpoon, I wish the plug was not pulled on the sequel.

As for a war against China - it is very unlikely. US ground troops in Asia? Bad idea. On the seas China is totally outclassed atm. Even if there is a war, a western trade embargo would pretty much ruin China.


Well, that´s not entirely true! The Harpoon community is alive an kicking and releasing Open Beta's for several releases including online play and a lot more

Have a look at Harpoon III etc at this link

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I've always wanted to play a Harpoon like sim based on a fictional late 1950s conflict. All those cool first generation Cold War toys.


In the new releases there´s a 50's database available, and it has a whole bunch of scenarios. Use this link and you´ll find scenarios and databases from WWII via the 50's and 60's through the 70's and 80's and all the way to 2015 [&o]

/Widell



TulliusDetritus -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 7:56:01 PM)

You got all wrong. Resistance is futile. China is going to be the next superpower. Bismarck was right! [:D]



niceguy2005 -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/3/2005 8:08:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

Niceguy2005, Don't forget that at one point in history we believed that a conflict with the USSR was an inevitablilty. ANd we know how that turned out. I am sure that sooner or later the Chinese population would force changes.

To the game idea, I am sure that it would be horribly unbalanced. 1,000,000 man army vs. 250,000 (not counting USMC, AF or USN) man army?


I'm not saying it is inevitable, just that I read a story that the Chinese military thinks so.

My personal opinion, cooler heads may prevail, but then again, I don't know I would want to bet my freedom on that.

As to the game being unbalanced, didn't Nato face just a bad of odds against the Soviets?



crsutton -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/4/2005 9:22:25 PM)

Would not work. If we went to war with China, our troops would have to fight naked.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/5/2005 12:20:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Widell

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackVoid

I really loved Harpoon, I wish the plug was not pulled on the sequel.

As for a war against China - it is very unlikely. US ground troops in Asia? Bad idea. On the seas China is totally outclassed atm. Even if there is a war, a western trade embargo would pretty much ruin China.


Well, that´s not entirely true! The Harpoon community is alive an kicking and releasing Open Beta's for several releases including online play and a lot more

Have a look at Harpoon III etc at this link

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I've always wanted to play a Harpoon like sim based on a fictional late 1950s conflict. All those cool first generation Cold War toys.


In the new releases there´s a 50's database available, and it has a whole bunch of scenarios. Use this link and you´ll find scenarios and databases from WWII via the 50's and 60's through the 70's and 80's and all the way to 2015 [&o]

/Widell


Whoooa. This looks like something I could get into. Thanks for the link![&o]



Cpt.Buckmaster -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 8:10:42 PM)

I think a limited war with China could happen. I doubt we'd ever set foot in China herself, due to their overwhelming land forces, but there could easily be a sea/air/limited ground war fought.

Remember Vizzini from 'The Princess Bride'?
quote:

Ha-ha, you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! -the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian, when *death* is on the line!". Hahahahahah


China has been quietly buying lots of vessels, both above water and below, from the Russians. They want to be able to eventually counter the US Navy, but they're still working on dealing with our aviation I believe.

At any rate, there's plenty of scenarios that could be played with here. Whether or not its a sure-thing that this could happen isn't as big of a deal... it's just fun to speculate.

I think the concept is doable if the game was well thoughtout and the premise was semi-realistic. Like someone said, though, the game engine would need some updating first.



rtrapasso -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 8:21:10 PM)

A few years ago, the USN did some major war-games with China as the main antagonist. The Chinese side won using some innovative tactics (putting several key ships out of action by use of large, high-tensile drift nets which fouled the props on some carriers and subs, iirc).



Mike Solli -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 8:25:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

A few years ago, the USN did some major war-games with China as the main antagonist. The Chinese side won using some innovative tactics (putting several key ships out of action by use of large, high-tensile drift nets which fouled the props on some carriers and subs, iirc).


Great, give em ideas.



rtrapasso -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 8:26:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

A few years ago, the USN did some major war-games with China as the main antagonist. The Chinese side won using some innovative tactics (putting several key ships out of action by use of large, high-tensile drift nets which fouled the props on some carriers and subs, iirc).


Great, give em ideas.



Yeah, well - it might. Remember that the IJN was encouraged by some of the US wargames showing that a sneak attack of Pearl Harbor could be done.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 8:38:12 PM)

quote:

Even better you could start the Chinese army in North Dakota and have it try to escape too.

Tom Hunter


Hmmm...how could this be? Are you assuming that the Chinese could have gone through 2-3 provinces heavily defended by Canadian rednecks and then manged to cross the mighty Canadian/USA border?[:)] Even with the "beachead" the chinese have in Vancouver (Chinatown) this is a stretch. All that open space with little population might actually freak them out too.[X(]



rtrapasso -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 8:40:05 PM)

quote:

All that open space with little population might actually freak them out too.


Covered by the Chinese Agarophobia rules![:'(]

They probably got there from direct descent from orbit.[:D]



Mike Solli -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 8:44:36 PM)

Yeah, we'll never learn from our mistakes, will we?



Cpt.Buckmaster -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/6/2005 10:10:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Yeah, we'll never learn from our mistakes, will we?


Not as long as the current White House administra....whoops!

Nevermind. [;)]



durnedwolf -> RE: WITP2: The Struggle Against China 2011-2018? (12/7/2005 4:34:36 PM)

For the Game concept, Have China work on two fronts. Let them push into Russia while also taking on Korea/Japan/Vietnam.

Russia would/could team up w/NATO. China, with their new space program, could sneak-attack all non-chinese satilites in an attempt to take out the GPS-dependant, high-tech, American Navy...

Bwaa-ha-ha-ha!



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