Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (Full Version)

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Andrew Brown -> Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 9:12:58 AM)

Some people have suggested that it would be a good idea to get rid of the "Zero bonus", possibly replacing it with some other early war advantage to the Japanese aircraft. This could be done by switching the slot numbers of the A6M2 and A6M3 (slots 3 and 4) with, say the Zekes (slots 5 and 6), as the bonus is presumably hard coded to the aircraft slot numbers.

Now for some questions:


  • What is an appropriate substitute for the bonus? The idea I have seen, which sounds reasonable, is to reduce the experience level of Allied pilots. Or maybe just do nothing?
  • If the experience level of Allied pilots is reduced, how much should it be reduced by?
  • Is this a good idea, a bad idea, or you don't care?


I expect that the net result of these changes would be that the Japanese air advantage enjoyed by the zero would not be as large, and not last as long, but on the other hand it would apply to ALL Japanese aircraft, not the just the A6M2 and the A6M3.

Thoughts?



sacorsair -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 9:37:02 AM)

Leave as is. The allies will win anyway. Japan needs every advantage they can get. if the is true CHS meaning historical go with the historical advantage.

[image]local://upfiles/13301/4E74BE4A2F3E405D917DCCD19B3CCF44.jpg[/image]



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 9:45:08 AM)

Experience is the key issue I'd guess. What are Army Air Corps pilots like Welch doing with 80-90+ experience on the eve of Pearl Harbor? This is a complete joke. Seeing as we can't go past 99 exp, why are RAF pilots (an organization at war for two years) so low and unproven Marine Corps guys so high? This PC crap has even entered the gaming world. The way I see it they may as well have given every pilot a 99 experience rating for passing flight school. Sucks. Game would be much better if pilots were rated no higher than 50 for experienced pilots, 60s for seasoned vets and the odd high rating for any historically gifted pilot prior to hostilites. Any further exp should be earned in game.

Enough with the banana republic like barrage of medals on every Tom, Dick and Harry's breast.[8|] So Welch is a 90+ pilot orior to PH? What was Marseille's rating? Or Gallands? Townsends? Johnson's? Beurling's?



ChezDaJez -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 10:15:47 AM)

Don't forget about the AVG, Ron. Why do they start the game so high? Many of them had never even flown a fighter before! Several came from level bombers, some from divebombers, others flew mail planes for crying out loud! Plus they didn't even engage in their first combat until 21 December 41.


Andrew,
As far as the Zero bonus goes, I say leave it to represent the intangibles of fear or at least the healthy respect it earned before they figured out how to fight it. If you do away with it you will need to severely downgrade allied experience, even the Brits as they didn't know how to fight it either. And the AVG should be heavily downgraded as their beginning experience level represents Chennault's tactics.

Chez



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 10:21:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Don't forget about the AVG, Ron. Why do they start the game so high? Many of them had never even flown a fighter before! Several came from level bombers, some from divebombers, others flew mail planes for crying out loud! Plus they didn't even engage in their first combat until 21 December 41.


Andrew,
As far as the Zero bonus goes, I say leave it to represent the intangibles of fear or at least the healthy respect it earned before they figured out how to fight it. If you do away with it you will need to severely downgrade allied experience, even the Brits as they didn't know how to fight it either. And the AVG should be heavily downgraded as their beginning experience level represents Chennault's tactics.

Chez


Exactly! The Zero Bonus was more based on inexperience than overwhelming technical surperiority. Gut the starting experience levels of untried pilots across the board.

As for the AVG, Chez, you are so right in pointing this out. Why the hell are they so high? All pilots are way too high and I'd bet it is one of the reasons the A2A model is soooooooo whacked. Not everyone can be a Captain Kirk people!



Sneer -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 10:42:15 AM)

I like an idea of removing zero bonus together with significant downgrade of US pilots



Yamato hugger -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 10:55:15 AM)

The reason for the "Zero bonus" is the shock of having to adjust tried and true tactics to deal with a plane with unheard of maneuverability (for the time). The AVG was trained to not dogfight, but to slash and run. It took some time for the other groups to adopt simular tactics. That is why the rule is there, and personally I think its a good one.



witpqs -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 11:09:22 AM)

Leave the bonus and experience as is. Yamato Hugger is right.

Plus, I can't sign on to the notion that no US pilots were any good prior to Dec 7, or that all British pilots were so much better. Training matters a lot. It has been pointed out on these boards that the IJN carrier pilots did not have extensive war experience, but were excellent pilots. And that US carrier pilots were quite good.

As far as British pilots, the UK was still pretty up against it and probably didn't have the luxury of training it's pilots to the standard it would like to before committing them to combat.

The AVG experience seems an efective way to counter the Zero bonus due to their tactics, as YH pointed out.

I know some folks don't like the zero bonus, but I think it adds to the flavor of things (in a good way).



Sneer -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 11:16:51 AM)

British pilots had opportunity to fight Battle of Britain so had great amount of skilled pilots which enabled them after battle ended to train better then average pilots - I don't see it on US side
WITP time is after battle of Britain - relatively quiet period for UK air force - part of combat experienced pilots could go to India and other theaters



rockmedic109 -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 11:33:37 AM)

FWIW, I say leave it as is. Gives the Japanese a bonus in the begining and, in a backwards sort of way, models the healthy respect for the plane that initially was the case after the first few encounters.

Not to hijack the thread, but would increasing the Japanese pilot pool better simulate later Japanese pilot shortages than a low number of replacements? Or is the Japanese running out of pilots in early 42 more a product of excessively bloody A2A combat/and or excessively quicker operations by players?



Rainerle -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 11:41:14 AM)

Hi,
actually I thinks it's a very good idea that this be done with the experience value. Like in real life let those that life through the first battles be the ones that gain the neccesary experience to combat the Zero on better terms.



Honda -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 12:38:22 PM)

Oscar corner
It's clear that Oscar is a Zero like machine. The only difference is that Oscar is underarmed but more maneuverable (not that the game simulates it). So, Oscar should also be a beneficiary of the "Zero bonus".
My proposal:
If slots for A6M2 and 3 are hard coded with the bonus why not exchange slots between Oscar I and A6M3? It would give Oscar I the bonus which isn't important at all by the time A6M3 comes into action.
As simple as it gets.
P.S.
Poor Nate...



Sneer -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 12:43:00 PM)

experiance diffrencies would do it better



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 1:13:35 PM)

First post.[;)]

I like the idea of adding OscarI's.
Would like to see the bonus reduced to 3 or 4 months instead of 6.



Andrew Brown -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 1:34:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942

First post.[;)]

I like the idea of adding OscarI's.
Would like to see the bonus reduced to 3 or 4 months instead of 6.


The idea of removing the Zero bonus and replacing it with reduced Allied pilot experience levels came about because of the fact that the Zero was not the only maneuverable Japanese aircraft at the start of the war, so it doesn't make sense that ONLY the Zero gets the bonus. I think the discussion actually was about the Oscar I.

One problem with reducing Allied experience is that it effects combat vs bombers as well as vs fighters, so it is perhaps too broad. But in my view the Zero bonus is too narrow. I also think that the bonus may apply for too long, but without eliminating it in the way I propose there is nothing that can be done about that.

Nor do I think that my proposal favours the Allies. In fact, we would have to be careful not to reduce the Allied experience levels too far in case the early part of the game became a Japanese turkey shoot.

If there are any further opinions I would love to hear them...

Andrew



captskillet -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 1:57:26 PM)

quote:

why are RAF pilots (an organization at war for two years) so low and unproven


I made a point about this last year Ron, British units that had been in Middle East or Europe fighting the Luftwaffe should as highly experienced if not higher. Come on, where did the Japanese earn all this experience..........fighting the (mostly) Chinese Air Force or dropping bombs on undefended cities [8|] [:D]! I agree, no pilot except maybe the aforementioned British units should start anywhere near the 80 level, afterall they were flying against a real airforce with real planes (BF-109)!



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 2:01:35 PM)

I'd like to see every pilot in the data base dropped in experience by 20, not just Allied. Just for the sake of the A2A model.

I'm actually OK with the Zero bonus but if the AVGs ratings are high to reflect their tactics (or the USN ability to adapt quickly etc), then I think the ratings of Japanese flyers should go down as they really were more a bunch of loners ala WW1 who had no real "tactical doctrine".

Once again they overlook alot when it comes to Japan.



BlackVoid -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 2:34:33 PM)

The experience is a good idea.
Reduce all pilots by 20, and then reduce the allies some more where needed. Most allied pilots should be around 40-50 xp, japanese 50-70. The Elite would be 70-80 for japanese and 60-70 for the allies. Then test if that is enough.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 3:21:21 PM)

Has someone tested how experience affects A2A combat ? Just wondering if a battle between pilots with 50 exp on both sides is less bloddy than a battle with pilots with 80 exp on both sides ?

I would increase A6M2 Zero manoeuver by 1 or 2 points, and Oscar I by 3 or 4. And maybe Nates some points too.

As for the AVG, WITP is wrong in IMOO to consider them as an US unit. I will rather see it as a special "nation" with no pilot replacement and with a special P-40 variant having "unrealistic" combat speed and manoeuver to simulate AVG training. No monthly replacements for this plane but a stock, equal to the Chinese deliveries at the time. So AVG will probably disappear in spring 1942. Then add the 23rd FG to USAAF OOB. But very few AVG pilots remained in China in 1942.

For the experience levels of the RAF units, Far East was very low on the list of priorities to have modern AC or trained pilots. Remember that in spring 1942, RAF was dominated over Europe by the Fw190s. Reinforcements sent to Malta, for example, were mostly green, half of the pilots having never flown an operation before. And so on. "Bloddy Shambles" books also describe the fighting units in Malaya in Dec 1941 as very green.

As for "dive and zoom" tactics, the RAF waited for 1943 to adopt them over Burma, according to the last Shore's book.



Sonny -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 3:44:11 PM)

Get rid of Zero bonus
drop all Japanese pilots 10 points experience
drop all allied pilots 15 (or 20) points experience



Not sure if experience is more of a factor than aggressiveness in causing large air battles to be bloody.



Sardaukar -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 4:12:09 PM)

I say to leave it as it is. Exp levels could be adjusted on both sides, though.



rtrapasso -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 4:16:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I say to leave it as it is. Exp levels could be adjusted on both sides, though.



Is it even POSSIBLE to remove the Zero bonus in CHS? Wouldn't this take a code change?



Yamato hugger -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 4:29:36 PM)

You can move the Zero to a different slot, like swap A6M8 and A6M2 for example. That would give the Zero bonus to the M8 ([:D])

Actually I like the idea of swapping the Oscar I with the A6M3. Sounds like a very good idea to me. Not many M3s are going to be in the game for that added +1 they would get, so no biggie.



Sardaukar -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 4:34:20 PM)

Hmmm..if the Oscar can get the bonus too by swapping the slots with later model Zero I'll support that.



rtrapasso -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 4:36:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

You can move the Zero to a different slot, like swap A6M8 and A6M2 for example. That would give the Zero bonus to the M8 ([:D])

Actually I like the idea of swapping the Oscar I with the A6M3. Sounds like a very good idea to me. Not many M3s are going to be in the game for that added +1 they would get, so no biggie.



Guess i shoulda re-read the first post.[8|][:o]

Hopefully, all of this IS slot dependent, otherwise all this is moot (it does seem likely that it is, though).



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 5:02:42 PM)

I am all against the Zero bonus, in principle, and I'd support the idea coming from any other "club" other than CHS.

But considering CHS is, was, and obviously will always be Drunken Allied Fanboy party club, introducing YET ANOTHER pro Allied change will just make it even more unbalanced and ridicolous. Knowing CHS guys, the only thing I find strange is you didn't think of this one earlier. [;)] The idea that this, or most other changes, do not favor the Allies, because mod team will take care to compensate by changing something else, coming from CHS guys is almost laughable.

Then again, why would I care [:D] Please do not pay attention to my posts, I'm just the local lunatic....

O.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 5:12:28 PM)

Why bother with any of this until we know how much xp affects a2a?



kaleun -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 5:30:17 PM)

As far as the British experience, here is my 2 cents worth:
Yes the RAF was fighting a war in Europe against a real airforce with real airplanes, so their pilots were very experienced.
BUT THOSE PILOTS WERE NOT IN MALAYA/BURMA
If you look in volume one of "Bloody Shambles" it appears that a very large proportion of the British pilots were poorly trained civilian air club pilots that were rapidly trained, in an "ad hoc" fashion, flying whatever was available. The actual number of experienced RAF pilots was actually quite low. (Don't have the figures with me; I'm at work)

I do think we should improve the Oscar though.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 5:33:13 PM)

Andrew, as a user of your mod/map, in my opinion "something" has to simulate the historic initial superiority of the Zero. Call it bonus, experience or whatever.



Nikademus -> RE: Proposal for CHS - Remove the Zero bonus. Any opinions? (12/8/2005 5:35:09 PM)

Actually there were some BoB vets with operational combat experience in Malaya but they were few in number in comparison to the inexperienced pilots. Many of them had abreviated training as well. the UK/Commonwealth airforce was the only one that had such veterans at war's start. It should be noted however that even the vets would be taken by suprise at the qualities of their opponent.



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