RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (Full Version)

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Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 3:27:54 AM)

The Axis.

I fixed the elite SS wheels.

I added an outline for the elite SS and by a happy accident got the double outline effect (not sure what happened but I like it a lot).

Darkened the yellow on the non-elite SS, but just a smidge. We''ll see what Patrice thinks.

Still have to fix the long names (Imperial Guard) and I would like the black on red to be easier to read (running out of ideas for how to do that).

I'll lengthen the posts on the engineer's E, and see if adding a pixel to the anchor helps.

Everything else look pretty good.

Oops. The file is too large. I'll cut it into two.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/CD5731FDC64041DFA3086DDA6B902B07.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 3:29:06 AM)

Part two of the Axis.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/7EDD9AE4797F454A9AE80E0F10BF20D4.jpg[/image]



Glen Felzien -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 3:45:29 AM)

[:D] Looking damn fine! I like how the Stilwell interior colour is the same as the American main colour; an appropriate match.



stretch -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 3:52:45 AM)

Awesome. Status bar looks good. Do you have any of the non-UK Commonwealth units ready like South African or Indian? I was wondering how they look.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 4:32:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stretch

Awesome. Status bar looks good. Do you have any of the non-UK Commonwealth units ready like South African or Indian? I was wondering how they look.


I need to enter the abbreviations for all the non-major powers first.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 7:43:28 AM)

Here are a couple of screen shots to test how well the units look to players with different types of color blindness.

The Italians are the 8 units in the 2 columns x 4 rows of the upper right.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/2F12F3874CE34BF5BF644D3EF9E75D5D.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 7:45:48 AM)

The Japanese are in the top two rows.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/73B7A19B92684BA9B71E23906E1172D4.jpg[/image]



Caranorn -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 2:40:07 PM)

Just a note on the non-elite SS units. I (not colour blind) don't see much of a difference between the elite-white and non-elite-yellow text. Though I expect the unit symbols will be sufficient to differenciate the two types.

P.S.: I expect a more complex solution like the original red with a white or yellow outline is not an option.



Froonp -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 3:33:05 PM)

[sm=00000436.gif]
Great great great great !!!!!
[sm=bow.gif]
I love them all !!!!

The red of the Japanese is great (and the black is reading correctly, do not change it), the interior of the Japanese non white print is great, the green of the US is great too, their interior box is great too, the DIV interior are great too (I would have liked to see how light pink was showing for the Japanese though), the Chinese Yellow and box color are great, the commusist DIV box are great, the Italian are great, the outline of the white print text on light colored counter is great, the Germans are greatly grey (I would have liked the box around the AT & Field ART factor not to touch the box inside the counter), the SS are great (please, show us it with red writing, I'm sure it's ledgible [&o], the yellow does not stand out from the white print), the MAP & PARA boxes are great, the French units are Great, the British units are great, the Russians & their boxes are great, everything is great !!!!!!!

[sm=party-smiley-012.gif]



Glen Felzien -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 4:38:39 PM)

I dont know Froonp. I think you are not being completely open here... [;)] You have got to stop holding back on how you feel! lol [;)][;)]

But you're right. They really do look great. It is interesting that the yellow print on black looks quite different than the white print to me anyway. But then, there are so many factors I suppose, hardware types, resolution, the ambiant lighting in the room that our computers are in and of course our individual eyesight. It has been through this colouring endevour that I have come to realize how difficult it is to come to an overall concensus.

Good job so far Steve.



Froonp -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 5:18:33 PM)

quote:

But you're right. They really do look great. It is interesting that the yellow print on black looks quite different than the white print to me anyway. But then, there are so many factors I suppose, hardware types, resolution, the ambiant lighting in the room that our computers are in and of course our individual eyesight. It has been through this colouring endevour that I have come to realize how difficult it is to come to an overall concensus.

OK, to be fair :
When I look the yellow on black on my flat 17" monitor at home, I cannot eadily tell the yellow from the white print. To tell you the truth, the first time I did not see that they were yellow, I thought they all were white.
When I look the yellow on black on my normal 19 or 21" monitor at work, I can see the yellow better, but it is still not "blatantly evident" that they are not white print.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 5:19:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

, the Germans are greatly grey (I would have liked the box around the AT & Field ART factor not to touch the box inside the counter),

the SS are great (please, show us it with red writing, I'm sure it's ledgible [&o], the yellow does not stand out from the white print),


Thank you one and all. This not how the units looked when I first started doing them. It is by responding to suggestions and criticisms (but not all of them) that these little suckers have evolved into something pretty.

I want the artist's advice on how to render the artillery, AA and all the other little colored rectangles as ellipses, as was done on the paper countersheets. So that aspect of the units (land, air and naval) is still unfinished.

I'll take a crack at Marc' suggestion of using a red outlined with white for non-elite SS units. See what it looks like. I won't be able to do that for their unit names or size (XXX) lettering though because their font is too small.



Froonp -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 5:22:42 PM)

quote:

I'll take a crack at Marc' suggestion of using a red outlined with white for non-elite SS units.

Thanks. I'm sure it will be good looking.

quote:

See what it looks like. I won't be able to do that for their unit names or size (XXX) lettering though because their font is too small.

Who cares ? This is not important if you cannot instantly and all the time read perfectly those names. The most important are the factors on the counters.



pak19652002 -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 11:39:57 PM)

These are looking good. Amazingly, the Chinese and Italian units look very different to me. The Japanese and US units are distinct as well. The US and Russian units are a little dicey, however. I didn't realize at first that both were on the Allied screenshot. Maybe you can sprinkle some of the same pixie dust on those as you did on the Italians and Chinese!

I agree that the yellow writing on the SS units needs to be spiced up a bit. CWIF was red, wasn't it? Anyway, in this case I think the contrast is key, not the color per se.

Peter



macgregor -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/2/2006 11:52:08 PM)

Looks good to me. The difference between American and Soviet units is clear to me. I know a lot of people have trouble with certain color distinction. I think they may be the only ones with the answer. Perhaps an optional color scheme for them?



SeaMonkey -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 12:05:22 AM)

For my 55 year old eyes I can definitely discern the yellow non-elite SS units from the white SS elite units, but I admit it is a bit difficult.

How about extending the yellow shading to the white portions of the Nato unit type depictions. This should delete any notion of white(eye-confusing) on the counters(non-elite) and bring the yellow of the numbers out to an increased prevalence.



pak19652002 -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 12:08:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

Looks good to me. The difference between American and Soviet units is clear to me. I know a lot of people have trouble with certain color distinction. I think they may be the only ones with the answer. Perhaps an optional color scheme for them?



Yes, I am Steve's official colorblind canary. I don't think the change needs to be drastic. Maybe just a little change in contrast would do it (i.e., make one a little lighter or the other a little darker). Maybe adding "more" orange (to the Russians?) or whatever could help also.

If any solutions look ridiculous or garish to the normal majority, then by all means we shouldn't use it. But, I'm hopeful in light of the success Steve had with the Italians and Chinese.

Peter





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 12:15:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002
These are looking good. Amazingly, the Chinese and Italian units look very different to me. The Japanese and US units are distinct as well. The US and Russian units are a little dicey, however. I didn't realize at first that both were on the Allied screenshot. Maybe you can sprinkle some of the same pixie dust on those as you did on the Italians and Chinese!

I agree that the yellow writing on the SS units needs to be spiced up a bit. CWIF was red, wasn't it? Anyway, in this case I think the contrast is key, not the color per se.
Peter


Excellent news. There might be others with blue-green instead of red-green, if I remember what I read about this back in 1982 when I did my first game. So I'll wait for addiitonal input.

What I was thinking about this morning was: adding a small square to the lower right corner of one or more countries so it is easy to tell them apart if colors don't do the job. For example, I could add a balck square to all the US land units. It is much harder to do something comparable for the air and naval units. There is very little room to work with. The best I have come up with is to place a circle around the strategic factor for air units (lower right corner, it is the only number that never has a circle on an air unit) and a circle around the anti-aircraft factor for naval units (lower left corner, it is the only number that never has a circle around it). The circles would be transparent, just a black rim. I would only do that for USA units and it could be toggled on and off. It would be simply a device for players having trouble with the colors who want that problem eliminated. What is messy about this is that each unit type (land, air, and sea) has a different indicator.

Perhaps a cleaner solution is for you (and maybe some others?) to devise a color combination that differentiaes all the major powers by color. In a sort of role reversal here, I am blind (unable to see) what would work for you and therefore can't do it myself. It doesn't matter if it looks garish or weird to anyone else, just so it works for you (as a representative of a minority). An optional color scheme could be automated (though I am not keen on doing that).

The way I worked out the colors in the screen shots posted herein was to place a simple square within a square and then make 40 copies or so. I filled 5 of them in for each major power: regular, divisional, artillery, marine, and airborne. After I had colors that looked reasonable, I used CorelDraw to tell me exactly what the RGB values were so I could incorporate them into the game. And then tweaked them over and over.

This doesn't have to be decided now. I actually prefer to let various possible solutions rise to the surface and drift around for a while. It seems as if eventually one of them will stand out as better than the rest.



pak19652002 -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 1:07:37 AM)

I don't think adding any boxes or circles to the counters is worth the trouble. As you say, they are busy enough as it is. I think the idea of changing colors is fantastic, however, and would leave it at that.

Thanks again for your concerted efforts on our behalf. It's interesting to note that between 8-12% of the male population has some degree of red-green colorblindness vs. 0.5% of women (does anyone know how many women play WiF?). That's a lot of people when you think about it...But, only 1 in 15-50,000 have blue-yellow color blindness so I wouldn't lose too much sleep over those unlucky people.[:(]

For your collective amusement, I'm attaching a little color blindness test I found. Some of you might even surprise yourselves!
_______________________

Numbers That You Should See If You Are In One Of The Following
Four Categories: [Some Letter Choices Show No Visible Numbers]


1. Normal Color Vision:
A: 29, B: 45, C: --, D: 26
2. Red-Green Color-Blind:
A: 70, B: --, C: 5, D: --
3. Red Color-blind:
A: 70, B: --, C: 5, D: 6
4. Green Color-Blind:
A: 70, B: --, C: 5, D: 2










[image]local://upfiles/15044/C9298E986B8F4C3984EC185F8B2D5EBD.jpg[/image]



stretch -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 1:51:33 AM)

Cool, I just checked and neither of my kids are color blind (and neither are mom and dad)



pak19652002 -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 2:08:04 AM)

That's great. Speaking of kids, my three year old loves your avatar...He ran up behind me shouting "Plankton! Plankton!".

For one precious second I thought he was a botanical genius. Then, I realized and, well, there go my dreams....[sm=Crazy-1271.gif]



Alexander Seil -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 2:34:05 AM)

What if we can see a 29, a 70 and a 2 and phi simultaneously in A? Is that a symptom of omniscience? [:D]

I could also see that 5 in C after trying very hard.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 4:18:54 AM)

You know I have been taking those tests at the eye doctor's for years and they never would tell me how well I did. Just a mumbled ugh from a nurse/technician. I am #1 by the way and you could have told me there was a picture of Marilyn Monroe in the 3rd for all that I can see there.

So, different colors for different folks. I'll ponder what the easiest way to do that is for a while.



pak19652002 -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 4:51:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am #1 by the way and you could have told me there was a picture of Marilyn Monroe in the 3rd for all that I can see there.



We are all relieved that Steve is normal. Otherwise, it would be a case of the blind leading the blind (sorry, couldn't resist).

Who told you about Marilyn Monroe? Number 3 is a little inside joke we play on normals.



dhatchen -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 10:15:26 AM)

I remember some of your posts showing the counters at an earlier stage and these are simply beautiful. Way to go.

A couple of comments that detract in no way from my appreciation of your fine work.

1. I didn't notice the SS Elite/non-Elite yellow until I read a later post and went back to see. I could just be my limited powers of observation...

2. I would really prefer the 'Tank Tread' in the ARM and MECH to be a little more rounded on the corners. Many of the NATO symbols I have seen have Half Circles on the ends or Ovals. This would be going too far, especially for redraw times, but may be another pixel or two?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 10:43:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhatchen

I remember some of your posts showing the counters at an earlier stage and these are simply beautiful. Way to go.

A couple of comments that detract in no way from my appreciation of your fine work.

1. I didn't notice the SS Elite/non-Elite yellow until I read a later post and went back to see. I could just be my limited powers of observation...

2. I would really prefer the 'Tank Tread' in the ARM and MECH to be a little more rounded on the corners. Many of the NATO symbols I have seen have Half Circles on the ends or Ovals. This would be going too far, especially for redraw times, but may be another pixel or two?


Here is a more rounded center element for the NATO symbol for armor. I haven't changed the armor HQ so you can see the difference. I prefer the more rounded rendering (10-5 unit) versus the merely rounded rectangle (6-4-3 unit).

I also lengthened the projections on the E for the 1-4 engineer you see here. That makes it look more like the other engieer units - even though the others have shorter projections.

I am going to try to improve the anchors for the marine units. I prefer the ones for the port symbols (the port symbols look better even though they are drawn more crudely - I could smooth them out, but they are due for replacement by the artist later).

Opinions?

[image]local://upfiles/16701/FA37933CF34D43DAB901DD210203C09E.jpg[/image]



dhatchen -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 11:24:45 AM)

I am playing with the quote function here a bit. Ihope this turns out as I intend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is a more rounded center element for the NATO symbol for armor. I haven't changed the armor HQ so you can see the difference. I prefer the more rounded rendering (10-5 unit) versus the merely rounded rectangle (6-4-3 unit).

That is exactly what I like.[:)]
quote:


I also lengthened the projections on the E for the 1-4 engineer you see here. That makes it look more like the other engieer units - even though the others have shorter projections.

Looks right.
quote:


I am going to try to improve the anchors for the marine units. I prefer the ones for the port symbols (the port symbols look better even though they are drawn more crudely - I could smooth them out, but they are due for replacement by the artist later).

Opinions?


Yes, a cleaned up port symbol has a better look.



Froonp -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 12:34:50 PM)

Hello,
quote:

Here is a more rounded center element for the NATO symbol for armor. I haven't changed the armor HQ so you can see the difference. I prefer the more rounded rendering (10-5 unit) versus the merely rounded rectangle (6-4-3 unit).

It is even greater this way !!! [:D]



P8654 -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 3:56:31 PM)

The armor and engineers look much better.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Depictions on Screen (1/3/2006 7:56:34 PM)

Here is another pass at the NATO symbols for armor and marines.

The Armor HQ is a bit more round than the Armor unit, which in turn is a bit more rounded than the Armor Artillery.

I prefer the middle one. What do you think?

And the Marine?

[image]local://upfiles/16701/D88450D26C65480B8CCA8BA7965456D9.jpg[/image]



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