RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (Full Version)

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ravinhood -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 6:47:53 PM)

Yeah outside of wargaming the term is "hard-core" I think. But, there are some "grogs" in the RPG genre for sure. I've watched em rave about what's an rpg and what's not an rpg. Diablo isn't an rpg. lol As far as that goes what's it matter? I look at Diablo as the RTSers kiddlefied clickfest game for the RPG genre. ;) But, I have to admit, now THAT kind of kiddiefied clickfest of a game I enjoy...why? Cause I only control ONE character. I can handle a clicky fest if it's just one character. I like Mario Karts so sue me. ;) Some kiddy games I like, some are rediculous like the regular Mario platform games. I hate platform games, linear as heck and stupid for the most part. It's a sideways hack n slash or in the case of Mario Jump and Bump haha. I really don't like any game that feels like a rush job. Most console games give me that feeling. Just rush to the end so your kids will want you to buy them another and oh DAD don't forget the CHEAT codes we gotta have them so we can RUSH even faster so you can buy US more games. ;)

I think all you fathers out there should "NEVER" let your kids use cheat codes. Make them EARN the victory screen (it'll save you money in the long run...trust me! LOL)



bschulte1978 -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 8:31:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

Have you played this first MMG title, if you are a ACW buff its the title for you


Now now Sarge you're not being fair to the other games out there just as good.

1) Sid Meiers Gettysburg/Antietam

2) Hunters ACW

3) SSI's Civil War series: Gettysburg, Shilo, Antietam and Chickamauga

4) Talonsofts Civil War series: Same as above. :)

5) HPS Civil War series: They have quite a few from the Western Theater, this is unique since most mostly cover only the Eastern Theater, they recently release Campaigns Gettysburg.

6) North & South (comical/arcadelike version campaign game of the Civil War).

8) Blue Powder & Grey Smoke (bet many don't remember this one)

9) Lee vs Grant

10) The Blue & the Grey. (Not exactly sure about this title, it was one of Impressions games of the Civil War).

11) No Greater Glory

12) Oh and Civil War:Battle of Bull Run commonly known as Take Command 1861: Bull Run version/module. ;) Oh wait you mentioned that one didn't you. heh

13) Honorable Mention: "Age of Rifles"


In the interest of full disclosure, I'm an uncompensated playtester for both HPS and Mad Minute Games. I also own several of the Matrix games (SPWAW, WitP) and will buy any ACW titles Matrix comes out with. Basically, I'm a Civil War wargamer period, with a little bit of Napoleon and the World Wars thrown in for good measure. I've played all of these games Ravinhood mentions except for 8 and 11, and his contention that they are all "as good as" Civil War Bull Ru are for the most part inaccurate. I did not even know of MMG when I purchased Civil War Bull Run last January, but as soon as I played the game I liked it so much that I started a fan site almost immediately. I didn't join the MMG team as a playtester until September 2005. Out of all of these mentioned, I would say only the HPS games and Frank Hunter's From Sumter to Appomattox can even give the MMG boys a run for their money. Many of the people who have played SMG and SMA have said that CWBR is an improvement (aside from the lack of multiplayer) over those games. Most of the other games you mention are so old graphics-wise and gameplay-wise that they don't hold a candle to CWBR or the new MMG title on Second Manassas. I look at it this way. The HPS games are a definite improvement over the Talonsoft games, and MMG's games are a definite improvement over the Sid Meier games.

The Blue and the Gray???!!!! Come on. Get real. That game was a pile of crap, and anyone who has played it can tell you that. It looks like Ravinhood just picked as many Civil War titles as he could remember and threw them out as being "as good as" Civil War Bull Run. Ravinhood, your hatred of Paradox has clouded your ability to accurately review this game apparently. Have you even played it?

To everyone else reading this, don't allow others to cloud your judgment. There is a demo of CWBR at the Mad Minute Games' web site. Hopefully there will be a demo of Second Manassas at some point as well between now and April. I encourage everyone interested in the Civil War to download the demo and check it out. Make up your own mind, and don't allow anyone else to persuade you one way or the other.



Veldor -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 8:55:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam@madminutegames.com

It's very hard to get any kind of historical game into retail.


Well, at best that is only half the problem right? The other half is actually getting someone to buy it even then.

I counted today at my local Frye's, a place known for carrying lots of PC titles.

12 Copies of MMG Bull Run
15 Copies of Hearts of Iron II
5 Copies of Diplomacy
2 Copies of GGWaW
2 Copies of Korsun Pocket

A month and a half a go or so they had 5-6 copies of GGWaW and maybe 16 Diplomacy games. Clearly the number stocked in a title doesn't seem to correspond to the number or percentage sold, unless they are restocking games like HOI2 and Bull Run. Their price on Bull Run was 19.99.

I wonder if having a Paradox logo on the Bull Run box would help it sell. It doesn't seem to be helping move the HOI2 games there (Unless again they have restocked it which I doubt). Maybe everyone that wants either of the games already has them, but that wouldn't be such a great thought either..

I admit some ignorance to the retail process. I understand in many cases once a title is sold to Frye's its sold and it doesn't much matter if they sit on the shelf or get given or thrown away. But I do know in other cases or perhaps even in theirs it does very much matter from the publishers/developers stance profit wise.

I make no judgements about the game, just find it very very interesting that they would have so many copies (or even have ordered so many copies) of a game thought to not have good distribution or advertising (and that being blamed in part for its apparant poorer overall sales).

Anyway just an odd observation that I couldn't seem to explain...



bschulte1978 -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 8:59:44 PM)

Veldor,

From my perspective, it simply seems like the Civil War trails at the very least World War 2 and Napoleonics in interest. There was a poll a while back on one of the Usenet wargaming groups, and I was surprised at how poorly the Civil War fared against the others.



Veldor -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 9:18:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bschulte

Veldor,

From my perspective, it simply seems like the Civil War trails at the very least World War 2 and Napoleonics in interest. There was a poll a while back on one of the Usenet wargaming groups, and I was surprised at how poorly the Civil War fared against the others.


I'm in the process of conducting my own poll of several hundred, and while nearly every respondant did choose WW2, both the Civil War and Napoleonics were close enough to not have any distinguishable difference in interest.

I suppose it depends on who you survey and where they come from. For my part the respondants are made up of mostly Matrix, Wargamer, War-Forums, and Shrapnel members with about 15% coming from the Wargame Newsgroups.

Now the imporant part with both surveys is that they probably represent mostly the interests of wargamers themselves. With retail you'd have to also hope for someone with more general interest in that war to still pick it up. And there are simply far more WW2 and Civil War enthusiasts in the states anyway than Naploenics fans. Just look at our History Channel lineup to get a good feel for that.

Whatever the case, in at least one stores instance, it doesn't seem to matter :(

If you all were really dedicated MMG fans you'd be down at your local Frye's trying to move copies of the game... [:D]



bschulte1978 -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 9:23:11 PM)

Veldor,

Where is the poll going to be located once you're finished? I'd love to see how the Civil War ends up doing.



Veldor -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 9:39:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bschulte

Veldor,

Where is the poll going to be located once you're finished? I'd love to see how the Civil War ends up doing.


http://www.mnemonicgames.com/survey.html

I was waiting for at least 500 people to fill it out before posting any results (Pretty close I think though I haven't looked at it recently).



ravinhood -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 9:40:46 PM)

quote:

and his contention that they are all "as good as" Civil War Bull Ru are for the most part inaccurate.


By who's standards yours or mine? I feel they are all equally good, there's no best and no worst. So, speak for "yourself" instead of speaking of "MY" inaccuracies, I'm very accurate when it comes to games and reviewing them thank you very much. ;)

By the way tadpole, I own every game I mentioned in that list, been gaming a longgggg time from commodore 64 to Amiga 500 to PC486sx25, etc. etc. I have an extensive library of many games in the past 25 years. I collect them as well as play them. And yep I've played MM Bull Run. It may be impressive to you to sit there and watch a movie with some input from time to time. I prefer more "hands-on" when I play and a bit more activity than I found out of MM's BR, the AI does way more than I expected it to do. And being that it does, it ruins a lot of my strategies and tactics. And no Multiplayer tisk tisk tisk, that's a major strike against it right there....2nd Manassas also, just wait an see.



Confederate_Beagler -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 10:28:25 PM)

quote:

found out of MM's BR, the AI does way more than I expected it to do. And being that it does, it ruins a lot of my strategies and tactics.


Sounds like someone is upset because he got his but handed to him by the AI[:D]



bschulte1978 -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 10:31:13 PM)

I expected this sort of vitriolic response from you. I believe the majority of people who have played all of the games on your list would term your views inaccurate, at best.

If you honestly believe even half of the games on that list are as good as Civil War Bull Run, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

Don't listen to him people, and don't listen to me. We are both obviously biased. Play the demo. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't. It's as simple as that.



bschulte1978 -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 10:39:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor


quote:

ORIGINAL: bschulte

Veldor,

Where is the poll going to be located once you're finished? I'd love to see how the Civil War ends up doing.


http://www.mnemonicgames.com/survey.html

I was waiting for at least 500 people to fill it out before posting any results (Pretty close I think though I haven't looked at it recently).


Thanks Veldor. I voted. I see that the format allows you to pick as many time periods as you want. The format of the other survey only allowed you to pick one favorite, so I'm sure that accounts for quite a bit of the difference.



rhondabrwn -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/2/2006 11:53:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor


quote:

ORIGINAL: bschulte

Veldor,

From my perspective, it simply seems like the Civil War trails at the very least World War 2 and Napoleonics in interest. There was a poll a while back on one of the Usenet wargaming groups, and I was surprised at how poorly the Civil War fared against the others.


I'm in the process of conducting my own poll of several hundred, and while nearly every respondant did choose WW2, both the Civil War and Napoleonics were close enough to not have any distinguishable difference in interest.

I suppose it depends on who you survey and where they come from. For my part the respondants are made up of mostly Matrix, Wargamer, War-Forums, and Shrapnel members with about 15% coming from the Wargame Newsgroups.

Now the imporant part with both surveys is that they probably represent mostly the interests of wargamers themselves. With retail you'd have to also hope for someone with more general interest in that war to still pick it up. And there are simply far more WW2 and Civil War enthusiasts in the states anyway than Naploenics fans. Just look at our History Channel lineup to get a good feel for that.

Whatever the case, in at least one stores instance, it doesn't seem to matter :(

If you all were really dedicated MMG fans you'd be down at your local Frye's trying to move copies of the game... [:D]


The poll was nicely done. I'll be waiting to see the results. [&o]



Adam@madminutegames.com -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 12:09:57 AM)

quote:

I prefer more "hands-on" when I play and a bit more activity than I found out of MM's BR, the AI does way more than I expected it to do. And being that it does, it ruins a lot of my strategies and tactics.


The player can have as much or as little input in the battle as they like. The Open Play games of the Take Command series allow the player to play as any commander from brigade/battery up to army commander. The player can "Take Command" (ie complete control) of the entire army or a single battery if they so choose.



rhondabrwn -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 12:26:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam@madminutegames.com

quote:

I prefer more "hands-on" when I play and a bit more activity than I found out of MM's BR, the AI does way more than I expected it to do. And being that it does, it ruins a lot of my strategies and tactics.


The player can have as much or as little input in the battle as they like. The Open Play games of the Take Command series allow the player to play as any commander from brigade/battery up to army commander. The player can "Take Command" (ie complete control) of the entire army or a single battery if they so choose.


I think there is definitely a place in the hobby for games that allow you to realistically put yourself in command. I think too many traditional wargamers are addicted to having total control over every combat element, even if no one actually in command of the historical battle had that kind of situational awareness and control over their troops. Yea, it makes for a good game to be able to manueuver every regiment and place every battery (and I'm not objecting... I like that kind of game too) but I've always had a vision of a game that would place you in actual command with access to no more information than you can physically see from your vantage point or are told through messages and reports. I haven't played Bull Run, but I sense that we're on the same page here (and I will get this game eventually).

I can see that there would be a huge frustration factor for a gamer who wants total control so I can understand the frustration that Ravinhood has expressed and stated as his personal opinion on the game. Personally, I think there is a place for your designs and I'm looking forward to trying your "Take command" approach.




Hertston -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 12:39:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I can see that there would be a huge frustration factor for a gamer who wants total control so I can understand the frustration that Ravinhood has expressed and stated as his personal opinion on the game. Personally, I think there is a place for your designs and I'm looking forward to trying your "Take command" approach.


It's hardly an original approach... but MMG must take credit for doing it well . There is certainly a big appeal to many, I think, in avoiding the micromanagement and taking the commander's role on occasion, with all the complications and uncertainties that involves. I still have fond memories of the Peter Turcan games (Amiga, in my case) which were about the first attempt to do it.. although sadly the AI didn't match the rest of the design (I never lost, as I recall). I always thought they would be a great laugh even today, if somebody dug them up and bolted on some HtH.

There's plenty of room for variation in the hobby, and everyone has their own preferences. Bull Run is a game I think most wargamers would enjoy playing for a while, whatever their preference.



*Lava* -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 3:09:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I've always had a vision of a game that would place you in actual command with access to no more information than you can physically see from your vantage point or are told through messages and reports.


Hi Rhonda,

When I was on the team, we got a chance to input what we thought should go into follow-up games, and "friendly FOW" was definately on my list. If you combine that with Wrangler's "HITS" mod, which essentially puts you in the saddle for field of view, an expanded courier system, the new cavalry functionality (which automates scouting and screening) and throw in multiplayer with an Army commander and a couple corps commanders (3v3)... you would be in for a wild ride!

Ray (alias Lava)



rhondabrwn -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 8:21:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I've always had a vision of a game that would place you in actual command with access to no more information than you can physically see from your vantage point or are told through messages and reports.


Hi Rhonda,

When I was on the team, we got a chance to input what we thought should go into follow-up games, and "friendly FOW" was definately on my list. If you combine that with Wrangler's "HITS" mod, which essentially puts you in the saddle for field of view, an expanded courier system, the new cavalry functionality (which automates scouting and screening) and throw in multiplayer with an Army commander and a couple corps commanders (3v3)... you would be in for a wild ride!

Ray (alias Lava)


Exactly! Back in college for a Computer Simulations in Education class I actually designed a Gettysburg game designed to be played that way over a network between teams of students.

This discussion has me thinking of the novel "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card which I assume many of you have read (if not, you should give consider it along with it's related novels and sequels).



Veldor -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 9:43:36 AM)


quote:


This discussion has me thinking of the novel "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card which I assume many of you have read (if not, you should give consider it along with it's related novels and sequels).


Somehow Hollywood has missed that one. Always thought it would be a sure fire hit if made into a movie.

To everyone, I'm sorry this thread got so out of control. Often I am responsible for that though in this case probably not so much. I of course started this thread only to help promote the game. At the time I had read about it on Frederick's Blog site and didn't even know if the news had been posted elsewhere yet.

I've stated many times that I've only personally purchased one Paradox Title (Diplomacy), and really feel it's gotten an unfair bad rap. Paradox has addressed most any complaint anyone had about it and the majority that talk so bad about it have not even bought the game nor even tried the demo.

It is so weird that some spend so much effort to trash Paradox's Diplomacy game and yet most of us that have bought it are still happily playing it months later. In fact what few negative posts there are are generally from new purchasers over-reacting to whatever installation or internet connection issue they are having (no doubt scared that "Oh My God They Were All Right, it IS a piece of ...")

And, of course, even if it were a dismal failure and disaster... That would have little to do with a MMG title.

Since no one else has said it yet, and I have zero reservations about saying what I think, I think at least some of us are simply disappointed that it wasn't a Matrix Title instead (Especially given that these ARE the Matrix Forums). What's wrong with Matrix Games after all? <sniffle> <sniffle> I know I still love 'em.

Although I'm sure there are just as many over at Paradox Plaza who are thrilled to see the addition to their lineup.





*Lava* -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 12:25:57 PM)

@Veldor

It's a small world mate. You name the company and almost certainly I have bought from them. I'm also looking forward to Strategic Command 2. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in Matrix Games, or I wouldn't be here.

Hope that ain't strike 3..

[;)]

Ray (alias Lava)



Hertston -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/3/2006 9:18:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

Somehow Hollywood has missed that one. Always thought it would be a sure fire hit if made into a movie.




Its currently in (pre)production, with an expected release in 2007. I know Wolfgang (Das Boot) Petersen is directing, but not much more than that.

Personally, its a book I've always considered un-filmable without ruining it. The violence among the kids is absolutely crucial to plot, yet I just don't see how they could film it, or even represent it, in a movie that must be released with a certificate allowing kids to see it to get any audience at all.

It might well be a smash.. but the best I can imagine it being is a "kids save the world" movie with a twist - not Ender's Game.



wodin -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/4/2006 11:56:01 AM)

I thought NWS was going to publish the Civil War game?



Marc von Martial -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/4/2006 1:27:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I thought NWS was going to publish the Civil War game?


NWS is a retailer, I'm pretty sure they will carry it.



Veldor -> RE: Paradox signs Mad Minute Games (1/4/2006 6:24:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I thought NWS was going to publish the Civil War game?


They self-publish a few mostly boardgame related titles and are working on a few PC ones in-house, but to my knowledge they have never published anything from a 3rd Party, nor are they likely to IMO.

As Marc mentioned they are primarily an online retailer of games and as such I think its a HUGE conflict of interest to start publishing things.

It would be like Matrix Games online store starting to carry Paradox and Battlefront titles.

BUT, I do find it humorous that "publishing" wargames these days now has been apparantly defined by some for usage in a case where little more is being done than being the exclusive online retailer of a game. I completely object to the usage of that term in that situation. It belittles what other publishers are capable of.



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