What is This (Full Version)

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Tyrson -> What is This (1/3/2006 6:02:26 AM)

Been playing a couple of games with oldcrow. Fine first I fu I lead with my tanks or bought expensive pieces(german tigers) so that I did not have that many pieces fine I lose. Now this battle I get 8 rads, at scouts and panther G's. My panther gets into duel with a hellcat at 19hexs I think, front armour to front armour I've got 85 pts of armour he's got either 13 or 25 a quarter of mine anyways I get first shot who loses me, can't kill a firefly with 2 panthers but guess what he takes them both.His jeeps run up to an infantry platoon what do they nothing. Every time he shot at an infantry unit dead soliders everytime. This really sucks. This nothing against oldcrow he's a good guy just playing the game, but this is b*, fine he out thinks me no prob, but why can't my King Tiger take out TD but has no prob wiping me, and don't tell me thats what they do. There is no way when I get first shot should I lose damn near 9 out of 10 times. Somethings broken. His armour compared to mine is like paper, but it stands up better then mine which is 3x as thick. Must be that magical american armour.
I don't really expect any responses other then that I'm some kind of cry baby loser what ever I don't care. Anyone who knows me knows different.
I am right close to quiting this stupid game
edited for spelling errors



Goblin -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 6:10:44 AM)

I've had an Easy 8 kill a King Tiger at 20+ hexes with front turret hits 3 times.

I have also noticed 88mm rounds bouncing of M4's and even halftracks repeatedly.

I am playing Long, Long, Road right now, and am having no problem with the German armor, despite a 20-30 point experience difference (the German crews are far better than mine).

I gotta agree with you sometimes.[;)]


Goblin



Tyrson -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 6:27:02 AM)

Thanks Goblin, hey if I'm out thought out played codos to you it's just when I have better armour, better gun, the jump on the other armour and come out with the short end of the stick. The odd time fine thats war but time after time gets a little wearing.
Rant over. Anyone wanna battle?..lol I must be a masochistic..lol



sabrejack -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 9:09:10 AM)

I think that happens to all of us at times.

[:D]

Some games it works my way, other times it goes against me. It's usually when I'm playing against better players that my accuracy goes down, and theirs goes up though. I've lost T34/85s to single crewmen assaulting, but I've done the same thing to opponents, so I think it's just random numbers.




Puukkoo -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 5:29:34 PM)

I've kinda faced this same phenomenon. German tanks seem to explode from every hit - no matter with what type of weapon it was fired upon. M4 Shermans are the worst bounce machines and Panthers are just junk.

(OT:Thanks for paying attention to this, and also thanks for editing the message. I'm getting pretty confident in my own English skills always when a native writes bad language.)



brador -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 5:42:05 PM)

I've been in situations where suppressed crewmen have taken out tanks. As cruel as it sounds, I'm sure this has happened to many players. My grandfather(step) told me a story once whem he was with the Canadian army in France shortly after D-Day that his infantry regiment was pinned down for 2 days by a lone sniper causing at least 30 casualties(including his right eye). Maybe this could be classified as an intangible of battle where experience, positioning, and outright luck plays an important role.



JediMessiah -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 7:29:36 PM)

i think the german oob has been nerfed in 8.x

im really starting to like the germans in h2h...exepensive, but tigers and panthers are to be feared again.

-jedi



Puukkoo -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 8:14:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brador

I've been in situations where suppressed crewmen have taken out tanks. As cruel as it sounds, I'm sure this has happened to many players. My grandfather(step) told me a story once whem he was with the Canadian army in France shortly after D-Day that his infantry regiment was pinned down for 2 days by a lone sniper causing at least 30 casualties(including his right eye). Maybe this could be classified as an intangible of battle where experience, positioning, and outright luck plays an important role.


I have nothing against crews assaulting vehicles. Tank crews for sure know how to break those items.

Nerfed? That's the word.



soldier -> RE: What is This (1/3/2006 8:39:00 PM)

Definately check out the H2H mod, theres a much better flavour for armoured combat (and infantry combat for that matter). As the allies you will have to move very carefully when the big cats are about and avoid shoot outs from long distance. Panthers suck in the 8x series and the US can buy full platoons of 76mm shermans on D Day(they are only available as command tanks in H2h).



Afrika Korps -> RE: What is This (1/4/2006 1:37:43 AM)

You know, I have noticed that the kitties seem somewhat weaker since I have returned to playing SPWAW...perhaps it is just an excuse I cling to for my cruddy playing lately...heh.

They do seem to explode if you poke them with a stick...

On the 88s not killing things, is it not possible that those shots are through-and-throughs and just not hitting stuff in the "vital organs"? Annoying either way...



Swamprat -> RE: What is This (1/4/2006 10:27:27 PM)

For what it's worth, I think values in H2H are too inflated. Especially for the Germans. People are getting too romantic and dewy eyed about Tigers.

There are loads of factors to consider here. When the Tiger went up against the TD, had either tank moved? And by how much? What was the terrain hex that they were both in. Had either of them been in combat prior to this (like did one or the other have any suppression points, even 1?) When the jeep runs up to the infantry platoon, have the infantry moved? Have they fired all their shots in the previous move?

There's so much stuff to consider, besides the quality of the equipment. And of course there is luck.

For what it's worth, when I get frustrated, my units start to miss even more, or break down. Is this magic? Negative Vibes? F**k knows. Fries my brain though.

Playing this game is easy. Well, easyish. Mastering it is something else though. And mastering an opponent is a whole other universe. Get on the inside of how the game works. It'll open it up for you. Beware though, 'cos then it'll get addictive.



Alby -> RE: What is This (1/5/2006 12:49:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamprat

For what it's worth, I think values in H2H are too inflated. Especially for the Germans. People are getting too romantic and dewy eyed about Tigers.



IMHO H2H is geared towards the Germans.



KG Erwin -> RE: What is This (1/5/2006 1:05:34 AM)

Thanks, Swamprat and Alby, for stating what I firmly believe to be true in the treatment of the Germans in SPWaW (until very recently), and particularly in their "ubermensch" treatment in H2H.

This is exactly why no new "official" OOB set is gonna be issued. The enhanced OOB editor allows individuals to reset many values to be in accordance with the way the program code was intended to interpret them. I anticipate a renewal of many old arguments both "for" and "against" , which is why the choice is left to the gamers whether to adopt the "programmer's conventions" and new pricing schemes or not. These will be OPTIONS to consider, NOT officially-sanctioned alterations to pre-existing OOB sets.



Alby -> RE: What is This (1/5/2006 1:08:13 AM)

Its A Tiger Kiddie CABAL!!!

[:D]



BIASEDHISTORIAN -> RE: What is This (1/5/2006 10:28:40 PM)

Based on extensive PBEM...

It is true that the German armor took a nosedive in version 8. Some scenes that I designed for version 7 became unplayable in 8 because the Germans were toned down so much. I have said many times that a German Panther in version 8 is useless. I have seen the US armor go postal from 7 to 8. The dominance of the US armor and super fast arty response time make the US the dominant power in version 8.

I too am trying H2H and learning it the hard way...but...the very powerful German units also costs a bunch more, so that evens it out. A single Panther should be worth the price of three T-34's and should be able to fairly fight them...

My 2 cents....

Yak



Swamprat -> RE: What is This (1/6/2006 1:01:47 AM)

quote:

It is true that the German armor took a nosedive in version 8. Some scenes that I designed for version 7 became unplayable in 8 because the Germans were toned down so much. I have said many times that a German Panther in version 8 is useless. I have seen the US armor go postal from 7 to 8. The dominance of the US armor and super fast arty response time make the US the dominant power in version 8.



Well, I'm not so sure. It depends on what factors in the game engine actually determine a unit's competance, an area that I'm not too knowledgeable about.

But on plain values (at 70 EXP):-

A PzIVJ in H2H has a FC/RF of 5/5 and costs 104. In 8.3 it has a FC/RF of 5/6 and costs 118.

A Panther G in H2H has FC/RF of 7/6 and costs 178. In 8.3 it is 9/10 and costs 168.

A KingTiger in H2H is 8/7 and costs 247. In 8.3 it is 9/10 and costs 200.

An M4A3 in H2H is 4/4 and costs 78. In 8.3 it is 4/4 and costs 95.

So with regards to Fire Control and Range Finding the Panther and Tiger has improved in 8.3 but gotten cheaper. Maybe there's other factors that make them worse in 8.3, I don't know.

The main difference I find in H2H is actually the experience values used, especially for the Germans in early war. The problem is of course creating values for nations that make them different. But I find that in SPWAW, you've only really got the value range of between 50 and 70 that are workable. Below 50 and frankly, regardless of the 'official' badge, the units aren't any better than civilians. With wooden legs. Above 70 and suddenly shots don't miss much, especially in elite units of +10, which the Germans benefit from, especially early in the war in H2H when every German tank is +10, giving you tank commanders of 90+ EXP which, in SPWAW's limited engine, is virtually one shot one kill.

I also find it difficult to comprehend the short 75 in a PzIV in 1941 for instance, which, as well as being deadly accurate at incredible ranges, due to the above, but with the Heat rounds that it has, can brew up a T34 or even a KV with no problem at all, which makes me wonder why the Germans got historically fretful about Russian tanks to the extent that they had to speed up development of a better gun. According to H2H they needn't have bothered. But that's just my personal beef.

Don't take this as meaning I knock everything in H2H. There's a lot I like in it. And I know that at the end of the day just about every adjustment to the game is a compromise that will always fail to please everybody. But I feel sometimes that the 8 series is more maligned than it deserves.

My only problem is with 8.4 and it's exp values, but I just turn Historic Values off for battles now. And the nation characteristics, which I think are just stereotyping fantasies. And I still get get challenging PBEM games (I don't play the AI anymore).
Maybe I'd feel different if I'd played the 7 series a lot and gotten really used to the capabilities of one army, and then found it had changed in 8. But I'll put my hand up to being a bit of a dunce because when I changed over I only noticed that in 8 most infantry units didn't have AT weapons anymore. I only really noticed the other changes when I read about them. I guess I'm just not that sensitive. [:D]



KG Erwin -> RE: What is This (1/6/2006 1:17:00 AM)

Swamprat, the new "programmer's convention" options in the soon-to-be-released enhanced OOB editor will change the FC/RF/price values yet again. IF these options are used, the PzIV J will have a FC/RF rating of 4/4, and will cost 119. The King Tiger will have a FC/RF rating of 7/4, and will cost 238. By contrast, the M4A3 will have a FC/RF of 3/4, and will cost 131. One big difference is the Gun Stabilizer (Stab): the German tanks mentioned have a Stab rating of 0;the Sherman is Stab 4. Another difference is in the base morale/exp ratings -- these will be virtually the same as they were in 8.4.



Swamprat -> RE: What is This (1/6/2006 1:32:21 AM)

This is one thing that confuses me when I read about the coming changes. What's a 'programmer's convention'? And why will it be an option.

I get the impression that most of the changes are for those who like to model OOB's and create scenarios, or something. But I don't understand any of that. I only like PBEM.

Will there be a vanilla standard option, or, when I email a new opponent, will I have to negotiate what 'convention' or OOB ratings we will use - as well as the usual restrictions and stuff?

That's the trouble with the computer age. Formats keep changing and stuff gets obsolete so fast. [;)]




Goblin -> RE: What is This (1/6/2006 3:10:05 AM)

I was just as confused as you, Rat!

Ok, so in the Editor (5.0, the new one), there is an Options tab with the new 'Programmer Conventions' (a fancy title for new options).

You click on it, and can see new options for setting prices across the board, setting FC (etc) to inteded values (the ones the game expects to find), standardizing ammo, etc.

You can still edit any unit like it is now, but you can play around with an entire OOB at the same time.

This is not just useful for designers. Any player that wants to try the stadardized pricing, ammo load-outs, etc just needs to go into the editor, set those options on for the OOB he would like it on, and save. Done. When he enters the game, they will be applied for that OOB.

So even a comp idiot like me was less confused than I expected to be, and was able to easily apply any and all of the new 'programmer conventions' that I wanted to. I am currently running campaigns with all options on, and am enjoying it.



Goblin



VikingNo2 -> RE: What is This (1/6/2006 5:43:42 PM)

Want to play H2H you can take the Germans they can be beat with tactics, there are certian US unit in H2H the are greatly improved and UK units as well. The support tanks of both are very deadly. A Sherman 105mm really spred havoc IMO. I very much like that transports cost much more in H2H



soldier -> RE: What is This (1/6/2006 5:56:45 PM)

quote:

People are getting too romantic and dewy eyed about Tigers

I'm not getting romantic and dewey eyed over the big cats, I just think their better for handling tank vs tank combat (better gun, better armour). The germans were also the world leaders in this field of conflict (especially at the tactical level which WAW represents).
I can't see much difference for tigers but the panther has serious problem in V8. Any allied TD is a match for nearly half the price, at least in H2H they can handle one on one and are worth the large amounts of money you spend on them. The later version panthers are recognized as being among the worlds best and most advanced AFV's of the war (not an accolade regularly handed out to the sherman [:D]).
True the Germans tanks are strong in H2H but the allies are much cheaper giving the battles a more Quality vs quantity feel which i think better reflects the reality of the time (some 50 000 sherman and T34s produced). And for those who say the Germans are untermensch in H2H should actually look at the differences in experience levels for version 8.4 [X(]. The Germans nearly double any allied competitor early on (In H2H Exp advantages of 10 or 15 are the main as compared to 20 and up.



Swamprat -> RE: What is This (1/7/2006 10:20:40 PM)

quote:

but the panther has serious problem in V8. Any allied TD is a match for nearly half the price, at least in H2H they can handle one on one


But this doesn't make sense at first glance. On paper, as I showed for instance, the panther is better and cheaper in version 8?. Is it the specs of the panther (as an example) that you don't agree with? Or is it the average experience levels of the crews driving the panther?

Or is it something else? What else has changed between 7 & 8? I say this because, in 7.1 H2h, in 44, I was surprised by how well my Churchills were shooting in a game. With 75mm's too. They shot more accurately more quickly than I was used to (being predominantly a version 8 player), and they seemed to knock out stuff better than I was used to with a 75. They've knocked out several panthers and that surprised me. At range and on the front armour.
Have the mechanics of armour penetration changed in version 8? Or the slope of armour calculations? Or the chances of getting ricochets instead of penetrations? Or a bunch of other things that I don't understand within the deeper workings of SPWAW?

If it is the latter, then the reduction in effectiveness goes for all nations, not just the Germans.



KG Erwin -> RE: What is This (1/8/2006 2:35:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamprat

quote:

but the panther has serious problem in V8. Any allied TD is a match for nearly half the price, at least in H2H they can handle one on one


But this doesn't make sense at first glance. On paper, as I showed for instance, the panther is better and cheaper in version 8?. Is it the specs of the panther (as an example) that you don't agree with? Or is it the average experience levels of the crews driving the panther?

Or is it something else? What else has changed between 7 & 8? I say this because, in 7.1 H2h, in 44, I was surprised by how well my Churchills were shooting in a game. With 75mm's too. They shot more accurately more quickly than I was used to (being predominantly a version 8 player), and they seemed to knock out stuff better than I was used to with a 75. They've knocked out several panthers and that surprised me. At range and on the front armour.
Have the mechanics of armour penetration changed in version 8? Or the slope of armour calculations? Or the chances of getting ricochets instead of penetrations? Or a bunch of other things that I don't understand within the deeper workings of SPWAW?

If it is the latter, then the reduction in effectiveness goes for all nations, not just the Germans.


Try out 8.403, and IF you're a solo player, then adopt the "programmer's conventions"
for each and every OOB. The nation ratings make more sense (IMHO) IF these conventions are adopted.

Another thing -- you armor freaks are gonna have to get used to the fact that SPWaW has steadily transformed into a combined arms game over the years. The poor bloody infantry IS a factor on the WWII battlefield, as is air power and artillery support. To paraphrase the Talking Heads, "This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no F-P-S game" [:'(]



soldier -> RE: What is This (1/8/2006 7:42:59 AM)

There are some statistical changes for the panther in the 2 different versions.
Targetting is 2 in V8 and 3 for H2H (for panthers A & D), and ROF is 6 for all panthers in H2H and 5 for panthers A & D in V8 so it has been dumbed down. I don't notice any improvement for these high FC & RF stats in version 8, in fact it performs worse. Panther is much more accurate in H2H and truly a tank to be feared as it was in real life.



Swamprat -> RE: What is This (1/8/2006 1:46:46 PM)

quote:

Panther is much more accurate in H2H


Yes, but the question remains, why?





quote:

Try out 8.403, and IF you're a solo player, then adopt the "programmer's conventions"


And if you're NOT a solo player?



Goblin -> RE: What is This (1/8/2006 3:52:50 PM)

Adopt them anyway and try them. Both PBEM players may like them after they have tinkered around with them, especially the standardized pricing, which I found to be pretty good.


Goblin



KG Erwin -> RE: What is This (1/8/2006 4:02:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

Adopt them anyway and try them. Both PBEM players may like them after they have tinkered around with them, especially the standardized pricing, which I found to be pretty good.


Goblin


Yes. The whole idea was to maximize the customability of the game, and offer more choices to the gamers. This, to my mind, is much better than simply releasing yet another "official" OOB set.



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