Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0

Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (Full Version)

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Bombur -> Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 2:17:13 AM)
-This is the same scenario we were playing before, which was restarted due to some imbalances in v4.2 of Nik. First turn with no animations and almost no combat. Second turn and will see the Japanese Navy attacking enemy pirate Submarines attempting to disrupt Japanese sea trade. Meanwhile, the expansion of Southern defense perimeter goes on AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/03/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ASW attack at 64,44 Japanese Ships ML Kyosai ML Hirashima ML Hoko ML Ishizaki ML Takashima ML Saishu PC Ishigaki PC Kunashiri PC Hachijo Allied Ships SS Drum, hits 4 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 4 troops unloading over beach at Gili Gili, 56,94 Japanese ground losses: 169 casualties reported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 5 troops unloading over beach at Tulagi, 68,96 Japanese ground losses: 52 casualties reported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 6 troops unloading over beach at Lunga, 67,97 Japanese ground losses: 25 casualties reported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 5 troops unloading over beach at Tulagi, 68,96 Japanese ground losses: 27 casualties reported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on 130th IJA Base Force, at 36,28 Allied aircraft Lysander I x 10 Hurricane IIb x 11 Allied aircraft losses Lysander I: 2 damaged Japanese ground losses: 21 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Aircraft Attacking: 10 x Lysander I bombing at 2000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on 4th New Chinese Corps, at 49,37 Japanese aircraft Ki-51 Sonia x 10 No Japanese losses Allied ground losses: 15 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Aircraft Attacking: 10 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing at 2000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/04/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 5 troops unloading over beach at Tulagi, 68,96 Japanese ground losses: 40 casualties reported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 5 troops unloading over beach at Tulagi, 68,96 Japanese ground losses: 13 casualties reported -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on 130th IJA Base Force, at 36,28 Allied aircraft Lysander I x 9 Hurricane IIb x 9 Allied aircraft losses Lysander I: 2 damaged Japanese ground losses: 10 casualties reported Aircraft Attacking: 9 x Lysander I bombing at 2000 feet

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 5:00:45 AM)
Good title for an AAR.....because soon you will experience chronic defeat. [:D]

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 5:44:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nikademus Good title for an AAR.....because soon you will experience chronic defeat. [:D] Already suffered one[:D]. Despite the fact I don´t like to risk my carriers until the complete Death Star is ready, I decided to risk them in a duel vs. Lexington and Yorktown with devastating results for Japan. It is possible that I just had bad luck, but I it´s possible that some overcorrection of the pro Japanese bias in CV vs. CV combat happened, the performance of IJN crews was very poor. AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/05/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 66,95 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 9 F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 SBD Dauntless x 68 TBD Devastator x 12 No Allied losses Japanese Ships ML Okinoshima, Bomb hits 12, on fire, heavy damage PC Toshi Maru #3, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage MSW Wa 2, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage MSW Wa 1, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at Tulagi Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 711 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1 (fort level 0) Japanese forces CAPTURE Tulagi base !!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at Lunga Japanese Deliberate attack Attacking force 245 troops, 3 guns, 0 vehicles Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 0) Japanese forces CAPTURE Lunga base !!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/06/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Naval bombardment of Gili Gili, at 56,94 Allied Ships DD Farragut DD Walke CL Hobart CA Australia CA Chicago Japanese ground losses: 194 casualties reported Guns lost 2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -Now the CV vs CV battles start Day Air attack on TF at 69,95 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 19 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 8 SBD Dauntless x 33 TBD Devastator x 12 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 damaged SBD Dauntless: 4 destroyed, 25 damaged TBD Devastator: 4 destroyed, 4 damaged Japanese Ships CV Zuikaku CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1 CV Shokaku DD Ariake Aircraft Attacking: 2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 1 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet 3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 3 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet -Interesting to notice how Nik´s first strike also goes poorly. Only 4 of his SBD´s attacked. Up to now his dive bombers have 1/4 hits. TBD´s with bombs are useless, so I won´t count them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF at 69,95 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 15 Allied aircraft SBD Dauntless x 17 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses SBD Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 13 damaged Japanese Ships CA Haguro CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 4, on fire CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet Second attack and Nik gets 5/16 hits. Accumulated up to now is 6/20 (30%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF at 69,95 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 18 Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 SBD Dauntless x 17 TBD Devastator x 12 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed SBD Dauntless: 1 destroyed, 14 damaged TBD Devastator: 10 damaged Japanese Ships CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet -Now the battle is almost over. Nik got 6/15 hits, with an accumulated hit rate of 12/35 (34,2%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Buna at 55,90 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 14 Allied aircraft Wirraway x 12 Kittyhawk I x 24 P-39D Airacobra x 30 A-20B Boston x 3 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses Wirraway: 3 damaged Kittyhawk I: 6 destroyed, 6 damaged P-39D Airacobra: 8 destroyed, 5 damaged Japanese Ships MSW Fumi Maru #2 CL Yubari DD Asanagi ML Tsugaru AP Syoka Maru Aircraft Attacking: 2 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet 3 x A-20B Boston bombing at 8000 feet 2 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet 4 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet 4 x Wirraway bombing at 2000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -Now the Japanese counterattack, look what happened. Only 50% of my Kates attacked. Day Air attack on TF at 68,99 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 19 D3A Val x 43 B5N Kate x 21 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 12 F4F-4 Wildcat x 10 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed D3A Val: 14 destroyed, 15 damaged B5N Kate: 10 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-3 Wildcat: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied Ships CV Yorktown CA Portland CV Lexington CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 1 CA Chester Aircraft Attacking: 1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 29 Vals dropped their bombs for one hit (3,4%). 11 Kates dropped their torpedoes for 0 hits(0%). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF at 68,99 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 9 B5N Kate x 6 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 4 F4F-4 Wildcat x 7 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged B5N Kate: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 destroyed F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 damaged Allied Ships CV Yorktown Aircraft Attacking: 2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet 2 x B5N Kate bombing at 5000 feet 4 Kates dropped their torpedoes for an accumulated hit rate of 0/15 (0%). Overall, the Japanese were able to attack with 44 planes, to get one hit (2%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF at 69,95 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 4 F4F-4 Wildcat x 6 SBD Dauntless x 13 TBD Devastator x 4 Allied aircraft losses SBD Dauntless: 6 damaged Japanese Ships CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet 4 x TBD Devastator bombing at 5000 feet 4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet I don´t think it should ne used for calculations as the IJN CV´s were sitting ducks at this time.

KDonovan -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 6:24:36 PM)
wow...those are some bad results for IJN. I'm playing nik 5.0 also, same scenario as you. I thought the 1st strike USA strike on your carriers was realistic but the 2nd strike.... Day Air attack on TF at 69,95 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 15 Allied aircraft SBD Dauntless x 17 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses SBD Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 13 damaged Japanese Ships CA Haguro CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 4, on fire CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1 this strike shouldn't never have gotten through...maybe 1 bomb hit at the most. The 3rd strike also was unrealistic.....16 out of the 17 dauntless got through with a 18 plane zero CAP. You figured half would've been shot down, resulting in 2-3 bomb hits for the Americans...not 6 bomb hits. Now when your strike goes in.... Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 19 D3A Val x 43 B5N Kate x 21 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 12 F4F-4 Wildcat x 10 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed D3A Val: 14 destroyed, 15 damaged B5N Kate: 10 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-3 Wildcat: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged Allied Ships CV Yorktown CA Portland CV Lexington CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 1 CA Chester Aircraft Attacking: 1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet 2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet This seems a little closer to reality, but still the results are askew. 1:1 show down of Zeros vs Wildcats shouldn't have let that many Wildcats get a crack at your bombers and torpedo planes...shooting down 25 of them, before the strike. The amount of bomb hits is the only thing that was close to reality on this strike. (i'm assuming most of the losses where do to A2A and not flak) There is the possibility that this battle was just a fluke loss (ie Midway) for the Japanese, because there wasn't much A2A change from Nik 4.2 to Nik 5.0, and i'm sure Nik did a boat load of testing b/t the 2 mods, thereby enhancing a more realistic play....guess we'll have to see how my carrier battles end up [:D]

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 6:32:58 PM)
Actually, most of my losses were due to Flak, but look to the fact that 29 Vals (70%) and 15 Kates (66%) were able to drop their bombs, so I think that losses themselves aren´t so unrealistic, but the hit rates for IJN are. On the relatively small losses for SBD´s, it seems to be reasonable. SBD´s were able to survive Zeros and drop their bombs even if unescorted. I will re run the animation file to recalculate % hits for SBD´s and TBD´s, as some bombs hits may have been the result of TBD attacks.

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 6:38:31 PM)
Actually there were some mistakes in bomb hits calculation (before correction for TBD) For USA. First attack: 1/29 (not 1/4) hits by SBD´s, so the total is: 1/29+ 5/16 + 6/15= 12/61 (19%), which seems to be reasonable. What seems to happen is that the first strikes seem to achieve worse results than the following ones, so an uncoordinated attack would be better under Nik mod? Notice that it still assumes that all hits were caused by SBD´s, soon we will have more accurate results.

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 7:19:54 PM)
Here are some corrections, as I looked again at the animations A2A losses 1st USA wave 1 Zero 0 F4F 3 TBD 3 SBD 2nd USA wave 1 SBD 3rd USA wave 1 F4F 1st IJN wave 3 Zero 4 F4F 6 Val 3 Kate 2nd IJN wave 0 Zero 2 F4F 0 Kat Hits/total launches Kate torpedo: 0/11 (0%) Kate bomb: 0/4 (0%) Val: 1/29 (3,4%) SBD: 10/61 (16,3%) TBD bomb: 2/20 (10%) However, in the first wave, all the attacks had a very low hit index TBD: 0/8 (0%) SBD: 1/29 (3,4%) Val: 1/29 (3,4%) Kate: 0/15 (0%) -So the second and third wave made all the difference, you can argue I was fool to fight USN CV´s with less bombers, since I got 44 launches vs. 81, but total number of bombers weren´t so different (102 vs. 86) and torpedoes weren´t useful to me....maybe it was just bad luck.

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 9:33:22 PM)
quote: this strike shouldn't never have gotten through...maybe 1 bomb hit at the most. The 3rd strike also was unrealistic.....16 out of the 17 dauntless got through with a 18 plane zero CAP. You figured half would've been shot down, resulting in 2-3 bomb hits for the Americans...not 6 bomb hits. Now when your strike goes in.... Actually from an A2A perspective i thought the battle was extremely realistic Discussion time: (drum roll) My mod is going to be a challenge for some people's notions who are used to the way the stock scenario resolves combat. They are used to seeing medium to large sized CAP's bloodying up incoming strikes and acting like a true Fleet Defense Shield. The historical reality, particularily for these early days in carrier combat was that CAP's could only count on stopping a small preportion of an incoming strikes. A fundemental part of the reason for this is one simple facet i've learned from 2 years of research on air combat in WWII. "Planes are not nearly so easy to shoot down as is often thought" Look at the BoB....on the bloodiest day of the battle, with hundreds of sorties flown....i believe the number of lost German aircraft was around 70. But lets stick to Coral sea. What were the historical losses for the Americans while attacking Shok and Zuik? Yorktown attack on KB (10 x A6M2 on CAP) 2 x A6M2 2 x SBD Lexington attack on KB (13 x A6M2 on CAP) 3 x F4F 4 x SBD (1 to AA, 1 op after damage and after bombing the enemy) It must be remembered too that the Japanese Fleet Defense was hampered by a complete absence of radar and somewhat indifferent radios aboard the Zeros. There was also no dedicated fighter direction control as was slowly (and painfully) being developed in the USN CV forces. Basically what this means is that on a clear day, against an enemy that doesn't attack simotaniously from multiple vectors, a Japanese CAP might be able to do a credible job of defense as they can have ample warning of incoming attack and concentrate on the threat. If the weather is poor, it was fully possible for a strike to almost completely elude a CAP and attack. This was part of the challenge of this new type of warfare....and a big part of why getting in "the first strike" was so front in center on the minds of the carrier admirals at the time. In other words, there was no such thing at the time as a complete defense. The best defense was a good offense....hit the enemy first and hard before he does the same to you. The SBD in particular was also a tough aircraft...and is now better represented in the mod....Zeros will not shoot them down in droves though if undefended by fighters, a strong Zero CAP can bloody them nicely. The Japanese would eventually score their greatest number of victories over the SBD at Coral Sea but a big reason why they did was because some of them were being used as anti-torp CAP.....(5 would be bagged over York and Lex) Even the F4F's wont be able to shoot down all B5N's and D3A's they encounter.....Japanese planes are more fragile than US planes but they don't ALL explode on contact with bullets. Downing enemy planes in the heat of combat is tough.

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 9:35:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bombur Actually there were some mistakes in bomb hits calculation (before correction for TBD) For USA. First attack: 1/29 (not 1/4) hits by SBD´s, so the total is: 1/29+ 5/16 + 6/15= 12/61 (19%), which seems to be reasonable. What seems to happen is that the first strikes seem to achieve worse results than the following ones, so an uncoordinated attack would be better under Nik mod? Notice that it still assumes that all hits were caused by SBD´s, soon we will have more accurate results. Remember too that at least 2-3 of the bomb hits (1 by a TBD) scored would actually qualify as near misses as they were "belt hits" that didn't penetrate.

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 9:43:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bombur Actually, most of my losses were due to Flak, but look to the fact that 29 Vals (70%) and 15 Kates (66%) were able to drop their bombs, so I think that losses themselves aren´t so unrealistic, but the hit rates for IJN are. On the relatively small losses for SBD´s, it seems to be reasonable. SBD´s were able to survive Zeros and drop their bombs even if unescorted. I will re run the animation file to recalculate % hits for SBD´s and TBD´s, as some bombs hits may have been the result of TBD attacks. As i related to Bombur in our private discussion.....ship based flak tends to have an initial 'big' impact on air attacks that causes great disruption to the accuracy of the attackers.....however with each succeeding attack, as ammo is shot off, a steady and strong curve of diminishing returns occurs which allows bomber accuracy to shoot up. Same thing happened to me.....my entire first strike missed due to heavy AA interference, but the followup strikes became more accurate as AA fire slackened. This tendancy has been in the game since UV days. I wanted AA fire routines for ships to be slackened off a bit so that they didn't fire off so much ammo so quickly. This is one of the reasons why i left ship flak alone in the mod outside of an adjustment to match the general DUR increases in the aircraft. one thing that should be noted even though it "might" not have made a difference was that the Shoho group remained seperate from KB. It would have been better if she had been combined into KB as one unit. might have spared Shok and Zuik a hit or two. Shoho's attack also was made at extreme range with bombs.....a wasteful use of B5N's What i found the ultimate irony to be was that a battle like this shows clearly that the often derided "Allied coord bonus" isn't strong enough by half.....Two CV's can easily launch coordinated and concentrated strikes against a target at four hexes (max range) when historically the USN had issues coordinating above the squadron level. Course as has been mentioned this too might not have changed anything as the game does code fatigue into the CAP.....meaning that each successive incoming strike will meet a less effective CAP....."diminishing returns" in other words. All in all though i'm happy, and not because i won...but because it shows that there's no more one sided-ness. The mod does not correct any "Japan bias", it simply tones down the effectiveness of CAP's, Japan or US. No more shields folks......treat your CV's with care [:D] I thought this battle emphasized perfectly what the authors of Shattered Sword were talking about in regards to Yamamoto and Naval GHQ dispersing KB's carrier assets and throwing away numerical advantage. Numbers are important in this mod now.

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 9:59:33 PM)
I think Nikademus is absolutely right when he argues that A2A in his mod is much more realistic, however, thre are two interesting points here: 1-Uncoordination here seems to be more of a blessing than a penalty, since the follow up attacks made the difference. 2-Anyway, the accuracy of the first wave as extremely low FOR BOTH sides (althought it made more difference for Japan). In no battle in WWII, was Japan able to attack with 64 bombers and obtain only one hit despite the fact that 2/3 of the bombers released their payloads (in Midway it was less than 30 bombers and less than 20 planes, releasing, correct?). I was expecting this battle to result in mutual CV destruction, however, the extreme result surprised me, not because Japan lost, but because it couldn´t achieve even one hit against a small USN TF despite having attacked with full strenght. I would expect the coordinated strike to cripple at least one ship, thus halving the fourth wave that doomed the Japaneses TF.

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 10:02:21 PM)
Both points are due to the way ship AA resolves. Again to refresh....same thing happened to my 1st raid as Bombur's....no hits due to high interference from AA. This helped tip things my way as i had more planes to launch more strikes with. However...that noted even if my attacks had come in one big wave, i think there were still enough planes to get through the flak and score enough hits to wreck at least one if not both of Bombur's fight decks.......maybe...maybe not...they were attacking with 500lb bombs...probably would depend on critical hit scorings. Bombur also got unlucky in that even my Devestators scored several hits on LB mode....which is rare..flak or no!

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/7/2006 11:17:20 PM)
-Yes, not only I noticed this but also mentioned the fact in my two last posts, you could have caused even more destruction if your first wave wasn´t so disrupted. Still, it seems troublesome to me that two "first waves" in a total of 99 planes (excluding the TBD´s), with 77 planes releasing their payloads resulted in only 2 hits. Of course this is only one battle and we will need a bigger sample to look at what really happened, but I think this is a point you should playtest. I could help you to do some playtesting vs. the AI. -The Emperor forbid the Imperial staff from releasing any information about the alleged moderate damage inflicted to two of our fleet carriers in the Salomons islands, so no reports for now[:D]. There has been strong arguments about the events in the IJN HQ. Admiral Yamamoto puts all the blame on Nik being an allied fanboy[:D], while Admiral Yamaguchi believes that it was all due to the lack of agressiveness of Admiral Hara, who failed to launch a Kate squadron (actually I don´t know what happened with the missing Kates)

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/8/2006 12:59:40 AM)
05/11/42 Almost no combat was seen in the last two days. IJN censorship and radio silence prevents the allies from knowing what happened with Shokaku and Zuikaku. Allied intel detected a radio message suggesting that Zuikaku was lost. No news on her sister ship. The shock of defeat seems to have paralyzed the Japanese offensive actions.

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/8/2006 11:03:25 AM)
Torpedoed by an intercepting S-boat. Yippie Ki Yay [:D]

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/8/2006 5:02:36 PM)
-Japanese subs order to start unrestricted submarine warfare vs. Allied shipping. Made their first victim, an enemy AK returning from PM to Australia. Oscars ad Zeros had some fun by hunting Hurricanes in Burma. A2A losses 7x2 for Japan AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/11/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 19 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 25 Ki-21 Sally x 25 Ki-48 Lily x 26 Ki-15 Babs x 4 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb x 9 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 1 damaged Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged Ki-48 Lily: 3 damaged Allied aircraft losses Hurricane IIb: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged Lysander I: 1 destroyed Allied ground losses: 20 casualties reported Airbase hits 1 Airbase supply hits 2 Runway hits 10 Aircraft Attacking: 15 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 4 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kure 5th SNLF, at 56,94 Allied aircraft B-17C Fortress x 7 B-17E Fortress x 18 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 76 casualties reported Guns lost 2 Aircraft Attacking: 18 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 5000 feet 7 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sub attack at 51,95 Japanese Ships SS I-22 Allied Ships AK Pennsylvanian, Shell hits 6, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/12/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 21 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 25 Ki-21 Sally x 23 Ki-48 Lily x 11 Ki-15 Babs x 3 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb x 8 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 1 destroyed Ki-21 Sally: 4 damaged Ki-48 Lily: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged Allied aircraft losses Hurricane IIb: 6 destroyed Lysander I: 1 destroyed Hudson I: 2 destroyed Allied ground losses: 13 casualties reported Airbase hits 1 Airbase supply hits 1 Runway hits 16 Aircraft Attacking: 6 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 8 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/8/2006 9:38:01 PM)
Few combat this turn. IJN Headquarters have cancelled operation MI, as the temporary loss of Shokaku and Zuikaku will make it more difficult..... AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/13/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at Nanning Allied Deliberate attack Attacking force 38963 troops, 230 guns, 0 vehicles Defending force 27428 troops, 333 guns, 0 vehicles Allied assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4) Japanese ground losses: 6 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Allied ground losses: 1320 casualties reported Guns lost 29 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/14/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ASW attack at 64,64 Japanese Ships PG Kaiun Maru Allied Ships SS Cuttlefish

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/9/2006 5:08:09 PM)
After analysing the action reports for what has become known as the 'Battle of the Coral Sea', USN officials have concluded that 1 Japanese heavy carrier has been sunk with a 2nd heavy carrier badly damaged...a major tactical and strategic victory for the Allies and the first to be scored against the Japanese war machine which until now, had seemed invincible. With Port Morosby having been granted a reprieve due to these events, Allied forces are focusing on stregthening their positions in the Coral Sea and awaiting developments of future Japanese moves.

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/10/2006 3:57:07 AM)
-Japanese Navy denies loss of a heavy carrier, althouth we acknowledge that one of our ships suffered moderate to heavy damage and is suffering from significant flooding at Shortland´s harbour, while the other Shokaku Carrier is being repaired from moderate damage and will soon be able to travel to Tokyo for definitive repairs. Meanwhile, our powerful forces destroyed ten enemy planes over Burma, with the loss of a fighter and a bomber. AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/15/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 17 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 24 Ki-21 Sally x 27 Ki-48 Lily x 27 Ki-15 Babs x 4 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb x 7 Japanese aircraft losses A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed Ki-21 Sally: 4 damaged Ki-48 Lily: 7 damaged Ki-15 Babs: 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses Hurricane IIb: 5 destroyed Lysander I: 1 destroyed Hudson I: 1 destroyed Allied ground losses: 1 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Airbase hits 2 Airbase supply hits 3 Runway hits 29 Aircraft Attacking: 8 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 11 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 17 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 2 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 5 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kure 5th SNLF, at 56,94 Allied aircraft B-17C Fortress x 7 B-17E Fortress x 9 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 20 casualties reported Aircraft Attacking: 9 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 5000 feet 7 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/16/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kure 5th SNLF, at 56,94 Allied aircraft B-17C Fortress x 10 B-17E Fortress x 13 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 52 casualties reported Aircraft Attacking: 13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 5000 feet 10 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Akyab , at 30,29 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb x 13 Beaufort V-IX x 4 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 15000 feet

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/10/2006 7:02:08 AM)
A few Hurricane aircraft were damaged on the ground in exchange for one Ki-48 which crashed due to damage while trying to return to the nest in Burma. Soon we will deal with those nests!! Allied intel estimates that maybe two CV's were sunk. [:D]

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/11/2006 1:18:44 AM)
quote: A few Hurricane aircraft were damaged on the ground in exchange for one Ki-48 which crashed due to damage while trying to return to the nest in Burma. Soon we will deal with those nests!! -First attempt didn´t work. Two heavy bombers LB-30 shot down by oue Nates over Rangoon. Guadalcanal suffer light casualties due to naval bombardment AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/17/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 4 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Naval bombardment of Lunga, at 67,97 Allied Ships DD O'Brien DD Mustin DD Meredith CL Achilles CL Leander Japanese ground losses: 92 casualties reported Guns lost 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/18/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 4 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Rangoon , at 29,34 Japanese aircraft Ki-27 Nate x 39 Allied aircraft LB-30 Liberator x 19 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-27 Nate: 7 damaged C5M Babs: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses LB-30 Liberator: 19 damaged Japanese ground losses: 24 casualties reported Runway hits 3 Aircraft Attacking: 13 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 12000 feet 6 x LB-30 Liberator bombing at 12000 feet

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/11/2006 7:09:45 PM)
The 1st Rangoon raid, while successful did result in the loss of two LB-30's....one going down after having two engines set on fire, the other a write off after crash landing back at Calcutta. Given the shortage of this airframe, 224 Group will probably switch to night attacks on the Burmese capital for future operations. Meanwhile regorganization in the SEAC command structure continues. In the Pacific, discussion continues over a possible strategy change from purely defensive moves to possible offensive thrusts aimed at weak points in the Japanese defense perimeter. With the sinking or crippling of at least two Japanese heavy carriers (now identified as units of CARDIV 5) near-parity in CV assets has been acheived.

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/12/2006 3:34:07 AM)
-A few attacks from Beauforts resulted in no damage to Mandaly, however, Ki-43´s and A6M2´s again escorted IJA level bombers to a raid on Kohima, destroying 10 Hurricanes. Enemy B-17´s are pounding our forces in Gilli Gilli, suggesting that a counteroffensive is underway. In China, a counteroffensive against Nanning IS underway. AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/19/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 4 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kure 5th SNLF, at 56,94 Allied aircraft B-17C Fortress x 10 B-17E Fortress x 13 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 12 casualties reported Aircraft Attacking: 13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 5000 feet 10 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/20/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 4 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 4 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 19 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 33 Ki-21 Sally x 3 Ki-48 Lily x 26 Ki-15 Babs x 3 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb x 9 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-43-Ib Oscar: 1 damaged Ki-48 Lily: 6 damaged Ki-15 Babs: 1 damaged Allied aircraft losses Hurricane IIb: 8 destroyed Airbase hits 3 Airbase supply hits 1 Runway hits 7 Aircraft Attacking: 15 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 8 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/12/2006 11:34:09 PM)
Few action. Both sides seem to be sparing their fleet and aircraft for a decisive battle. Chinese troops are attempting to siege Nanning. Ki-21´s started ground support missions AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/21/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ASW attack at 40,52 Japanese Ships PG Hakkaisan Maru MSW Togo Maru MSW Banshu Maru #51 DD Kazegumo Allied Ships SS Saury -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 6 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 6 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on 50th Chinese Corps, at 40,38 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 12 Ki-21 Sally x 42 Ki-15 Babs x 1 No Japanese losses Allied ground losses: 15 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Aircraft Attacking: 15 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 27 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kure 5th SNLF, at 56,94 Allied aircraft B-17C Fortress x 10 B-17E Fortress x 13 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 13 x B-17E Fortress bombing at 5000 feet 10 x B-17C Fortress bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/22/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 3 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/12/2006 11:37:09 PM)
Chiang wanted it to be known that , "he 'aint afraid of no bomber with a girly name like 'Sally' "

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/13/2006 1:58:56 AM)
quote: Chiang wanted it to be known that , "he 'aint afraid of no bomber with a girly name like 'Sally' " -Maybe we could provide him with some Helens???

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/13/2006 7:40:17 AM)
Bah....Sally, Beatty, Helen....all girley bombers. A real bomber is a Marauder....yeah baby.....coming to a theater near you!

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/14/2006 12:26:22 AM)
-Interval thoughts -I was worried about excessive flak power in Nik mod v5.0 causing excessive disruption to air attacks against CV´s. Tests made up to now (I simulated two Coral Sea battles) give full support to Nik´s mod as far as realism is of concern. Both battles result in small Japanese tatical victories, but at a high cost in damaged carriers. Only one CV was sunk in two battles. It seems the extreme result came from Japanese mistakes (it´s likely that I forgot to launch one Kate squadron and I didn´t place Shoho, Zuikaku and Shokaku in the same TF, thus depriving my forces from precious flak support and extra targets) -On girl names for bombers...it´s all allied propaganda, all of our bombers had names of flying mithical creatures, like Donryu and Hiryu.....

Bombur -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/14/2006 1:19:47 AM)
A great victory for Japan in Burma. Our "girl" bombers escorted by Ki-43´s and A6M´s attacked Kohima for two days in a row, destroying no less than 25 aircraft (12 in air combat and 16 in the ground) at the cost of only 2 losses. AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/23/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 3 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sub attack at 40,52 Japanese Ships DD Kazegumo PG Hakkaisan Maru MSW Togo Maru MSW Banshu Maru #51 Allied Ships SS Saury -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 21 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 26 Ki-21 Sally x 18 Ki-48 Lily x 26 Ki-15 Babs x 4 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb x 9 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21 Sally: 3 damaged Ki-48 Lily: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged Allied aircraft losses Hurricane IIb: 7 destroyed Beaufort V-IX: 1 destroyed Lysander I: 1 destroyed Airbase hits 1 Runway hits 27 Aircraft Attacking: 19 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 9 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 6 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/24/42 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Air attack on Mandalay , at 33,30 Allied aircraft Beaufort V-IX x 3 No Allied losses Aircraft Attacking: 3 x Beaufort V-IX bombing at 5000 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kohima , at 34,25 Japanese aircraft A6M2 Zero x 19 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 26 Ki-21 Sally x 26 Ki-48 Lily x 19 Ki-15 Babs x 3 Allied aircraft Hurricane IIb x 8 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-48 Lily: 4 damaged Allied aircraft losses Hurricane IIb: 8 destroyed Beaufort V-IX: 1 destroyed Hudson I: 3 destroyed Allied ground losses: 27 casualties reported Airbase hits 4 Airbase supply hits 8 Runway hits 15 Aircraft Attacking: 13 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 20 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-48 Lily bombing at 15000 feet 3 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 15000 feet

Nikademus -> RE: Defeat disease: Bombur vs. Nik 42A Nik mod 5.0 (1/14/2006 6:11:39 AM)
stop picking on my poor Hurricanes. Wait till the IIc's arrive. You'll be sorry

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