Researching German A/C (Full Version)

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The Dude -> Researching German A/C (1/22/2006 9:50:30 AM)

I see several people alluding to this in the forums. Can somebody explain the whole deal to me cuz i can't find any refernce to it in the manual

thanks



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/22/2006 12:40:44 PM)

the Ge Player can reseach newer plane models

he does it the same as if he were building the planes, for each frame, engine and part, it counts as one plane, when his plane total reaches 100, it moves the date of the plane forward one month

now something like the 262 cost more engines (4) the 335 would cost 2 engines

if you do nothing, the plane "should" come out when it did in real life, if you want to try and get it sooner, you can change your production to "reseach" the plane model, but you lose planes you could be building

the game starts with a number of planes already being reseached

one hassle is the AFAC has to retool to the new model, so you also lose the time it takes to retool, before it even starts to reseach

but you can move the better planes forward




Capt Cliff -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/23/2006 9:35:00 PM)

What about the US getting the P-80 sooner? Or the Brit Vampire?



HMSWarspite -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/23/2006 9:46:37 PM)

The Allied plane schedule is fixed, and neither player can influence it (Ge can't 'damage' it, and Allies cant advance it). The only variable allies have is how to introduce a type to combat (as soon as you have 1 unit's worth, or wait for a fuller force).



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/24/2006 4:16:44 AM)

well
one of the hassles with the basic game was the number of plane slots that could be used, so the Allies were pretty much set in stone

we now have more plane slots, and we can add in more plane types

so, we may be able to add in more types of Spits, or late model P-47's or maybe some of the early Jets or bombers that were not used or needed

one hassle is, should this be a option, or should this be in the main campaign



The Dude -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/24/2006 6:44:40 PM)

Well when you think about it the Allied plane inventory is pretty well covered. All you can realy throw in there are maybe Spit VIIIs and XVIs, P47Ms, Tempest IIs, and mybe some marks of Lanc and Venturas. Even most of these planes are adequately covered by other marks in the game with the exception of P47M



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/24/2006 8:44:18 PM)

Well it is and it isn't :)

in the real world, the Air War for control, was pretty much over by may of 44, the LW still tried to contest raids when they could, but alot of times, they just sat on the ground and let the Bombers fly by (they tried time and again, to stock pile there planes, so they could mount a Massive assult on the bombers, but something always came up, and used them up, the Raids on Berlin forced them to come up)

so lots of newer models or types were pretty much put on hold, they were not needed in the ETO

but in the game, this is not going to happen

and the AI or the player is going to be able to build many of the GE super planes, that really didn't get into action during the war

so guess the point I trying to make, is the GE if locked into a plane set like the Allies, should only get what 38 Ta-152's ?, 5-10 Do-335's ?, but in the game, they can make 100's, 1000's if they want to, so if the GE can and will, why shouldn't the Allies be able to build/get what they would of used to counter these planes if they had been build




HMSWarspite -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/25/2006 12:40:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Well it is and it isn't :)

in the real world, the Air War for control, was pretty much over by may of 44, the LW still tried to contest raids when they could, but alot of times, they just sat on the ground and let the Bombers fly by (they tried time and again, to stock pile there planes, so they could mount a Massive assult on the bombers, but something always came up, and used them up, the Raids on Berlin forced them to come up)

so lots of newer models or types were pretty much put on hold, they were not needed in the ETO

but in the game, this is not going to happen

and the AI or the player is going to be able to build many of the GE super planes, that really didn't get into action during the war

so guess the point I trying to make, is the GE if locked into a plane set like the Allies, should only get what 38 Ta-152's ?, 5-10 Do-335's ?, but in the game, they can make 100's, 1000's if they want to, so if the GE can and will, why shouldn't the Allies be able to build/get what they would of used to counter these planes if they had been build




A good point. To be really balanced, certain Allied planes could only be released x days after the first Ge unit gets certain plain types - for example Spitfire 21/22/24, if something that outclasses a XIV comes into service (and similarly with P51 etc). Introduce the Meteor slightly earlier if 262 comes out early, maybe the Vampire if 262 operational numbers exceed a threshold. This is an attempt to give Allies advanced aircraft without unbalancing the game, or introducing a whole Allied production system. Mind you, you could give the Allies 'build points; which they spend (within restrictions) to get replacements... (preferably with a suitable lag - spend points now to get deliveries in several months)



harley -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/26/2006 4:28:49 AM)

Firstly - there should be certain technologies that are impossible to research prior to a set date, be it Walther Rockets, Jet Engines or particular Radar installations. Essentially, a critical component for a plane needs to be held back until it could resonably be developed. Building a million airframes to get the ME262B earlier should not be possible as the Berlin Radar wasn't ready.

Secondly - Allied aircraft should be advanced by a small amount, based on espionage (like 5% of the Axis gains in tech) but should also be advanced by willingly putting AC on hold - if you take 14 P47D instead of 16, you get 60 points of P47M research in a month. Take 10 P51D instead of 12, and you get 60 points of P80 research.

On both these points you have to consider both PBEM - where the Axis player can rush build the FW190D or TA152 knowing the allies can't win before they are built, and Single Play, where the axis player can cream the AI with pretty much anything.

I like the idea of build points from HMSWarspite...



von Shagmeister -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/26/2006 12:02:41 PM)


I think that it is too easy to research advanced a/c to get them into service. Maybe increase the number of completed research a/c required to advance the production date by one month from 100 to 200. Also as Harley says it's pointless rushing to build a certain airframe if critical components are missing (ie FuG 240) so maybe make it so that necessary resources have to be devoted to research these critical components as well. Finally if the Axis can research advanced a/c types then the Allies should have some way to get advanced types into service earlier.

von Shagmeister



seydlitz_slith -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/26/2006 2:29:16 PM)

Great points Harley, I totally agree.
Also, maybe research advancement could be made more like it is in WITP. In that, for every 100 aircraft you build as prototypes, you get a CHANCE to advance the availability date by one month, and the farther away from the orignal availability date that an aircraft is, the lower that chance is. I also think that it takes more resources per prototype aircraft in WITP to represent other components being developed etc. The final kicker is that the game does not tell you what the current (updated by research) availability date is on the aircraft, so you research away hoping it will become available sooner. It means that you can't mathematically plan for a plane to become available X months early with precision like you can in BTR.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/26/2006 8:27:58 PM)

Hi folks...

i played BTR a long time but "lost" my upgrades.. so i hope you will reanimate the game and eliminate some serious problems...

for the research thing.
1.) the allied side has only some planes they could fasten up.
The brits did anything they could for the spitfire... so newer planes in the game earlier seems wrong for me.
Similar for the real new toys of the americans... the p80 was only able to speed up after the brits gave every knowledge to the US. And from that point they did it as fast as they could. For planes like the P47M i agree, here could some german plane (say the Ta152H-losses climb over 100 or such thing) be a trigger... or other things)
In generally, the allied production system was great to produce numbers, but not to fasten up "new planes". Like the sherman-problem the allies did not react fast to superior enemy equippment. But one problem should be fixed.
The numbers of allied planes.
I mean, in btr it was easy to outproduce the allies, in the end the german player could bring more planes in the air as the allies - that is silly. So even if the allies have terrible losses, there should allways be enough planes that come in. Maybe "older" ones... but - with say one week space the delivered planes should allways be enough to equip the groups. (if the americans loose to many p51, they are "forced" to use p38, but they have no problem to use fighters...)
2.) german research
this is more difficulty.
a.) some technical equipment should be prohibited, like the Fu240Berlin, this stuff could not be developted earlier - only if you use the same trigger (here important "hotstuff"-equipped allied planes could be a trigger) on the other side. But even then only a modest speedup should be possible.
b.) Planes. Here it is quite difficult. some planes are really "last-period"-toys. But - and that is the what-if-problem... if the war goes "better" for the germans, less technical centers be bombed, more common planes produced, the german developer had had more time for research of newer planes. This is the total difference to the allied side.
The allies could reserach without danger of the war, the germans could not. A german prototype was - late war allways in danger through bombing raids... as it happend quite often.
Another problem btr does not shows is the "developing in a row"... you could speed up the FW190D and the Ta152H similar. But in history, the germans developted them one after the other. But i fear the game could not simulate this ?

Also the production-parts are useless for development. One example is the He219-Discussion. This game was superior to every other german or allied nightfighter - as a plane. So a german player will try to produce it (cause he is not as stupid as the historical people (the deciders dislikde Heinkel, he was not a Nazi)) If you use this plane, any radarequippemt could be built in. So you have no need for modern radar equippment to produce the plane. If you produce a Ta154, you also could produce a He219 (for Radarequippment) or a Me110... But what happen if the german player produce 1000 He219 ? allied nightbombers are doomed if weather and rader works for the german player.

For the jet-engine-fighters, it is true that german jets could not work with failures in the engine, so me262 in december 43 could not be done IF not the engines must be researched, too.
I would say, for research, any engine must be produced twice as often as it was in the original btr... so 8 jet engines hurts you, if you want to be much faster with this planes in the air.
The Do335 on the other hand is a plane that could be in the air in spring 44... without problems (okay, in the game this would end the chance to win the war as an allied player) But this could be done by "idea-jumps"... you could not develop the do335 if you do not have the idea to develop the plane. And only if some trigger-event happen you can reseach the plane.

The research should be rebuilt... for the research of a plane you need an airframe, engine and other stuff. That is fine. But you also need these equipment in an area, say 200km around the next stuff. Or it has a delay (and some % of the knowledge could be lost by airraids (ings got killed etc...) )
Also, different engines, again you have to research the newer ones...
a resource-level helps to see if you can research some stuff or not. The germans had perfect and superior engines in late 41... but sadly these babies needed resources the germans had only a few. So they tried to redevelop these engines. One chance to simulate this is a decision you make... say a engine production site has 100 engines a month. With the BMW-Engine. The "new" BMW" engine with more power needs 2times resources... so you can produce 100 old engines or 50 new ones...

The chance for german players to strike back with newer planes should not be delayed to nothing. Otherwise the whole production system should be locked. But that would be an allied vers. ai game.

Also one thing that improve the situation is the numbers of active german planes... if the germans had mounted a 1000 fighters vers. 1000 bombers event, war would have been different. In btr this is made quite easily... so nonrealistic results happen (they are realistic IF 1000 fighters ambush 1000 unescorted bombers)

that are just my ideas to it. btr was the greatest strategy game... even better as witp.



otisabuser2 -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/27/2006 7:00:06 PM)

quote:

The brits did anything they could for the spitfire... so newer planes in the game earlier seems wrong for me.


The Spitfire is probably not the best plane to use in your examples. Several new versions were built purely because there was a threat from new German aircraft.

Several nice strategies for the method of introducing "hot" Allied planes. Unable to choose between several at the moment. [:)]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/27/2006 7:23:29 PM)

quote:

Another problem btr does not shows is the "developing in a row"... you could speed up the FW190D and the Ta152H similar. But in history, the germans developted them one after the other. But i fear the game could not simulate this ?


I got to disagree with this thought

the 190 D was a stop gap improvement to the 190 A, while the Ta 152 was the new and improved model

so, both could be built, researched at the same time (which the 152 should be much HARDer to research)

I am not to sure about the, have to have the idea, for the 335, it was a simple idea, and nothing new to the time frame, there were many pusher ideas during this time or before

good point about the compondites, the radar didn't make the plane, the plane made the plane, the Radar helped it, if the 240 wasn't ready yet, the 220 would of been used, or the 210, or the model A

I would like to have say a way, to bring or advance Allied new models, based on something the GE do, but we need to keep it away from being abled to be Gamed, say, 2000 262's made, the P-80 is ready, so the player stops making 262's when they reach 1800

one of the other points I was trying to make for the Allies, there were many planes being made, tested, designed, that didn't go anywhere, basicly, because they were not needed, I believe the P47 H was worked on in the sring of 44, a plane that could reach 485 MPH, in early 44, was dropped, not needed (and this was before the Bubble Top 47 was standard (well, the Test models of the H were razerbacks)

the XP 72 was a suped up 47 H, this was hitting 505 MPH



harley -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 3:08:57 AM)

So instead of "SWOTL" (anyone remeber that Lucasfil game) we can have "SWOTA" Yeah, me likes...




Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 3:37:39 PM)

Roger and roger
which is why I question if it should be in the standard campaign, or if it should be part of a what if

which, my hassle with the standard game right now, is the AI can put up some pretty good numbers of planes it should never really have (of course, the GE Were able to build many 262's in real life, but could never get them to were they were needed)

but so saying, if the AI can have 1000's of K-4's and 190 D's and 262's, then the Allies shouldn't be stuck with just Spit IX's, Spit XIV's and P-51's

(when the 190 D's was seen and fought in battle, it was reported as something to notice, the pilots always said, yea there were even some of them long nose 190's, so they had to be sort of rare, for fighters pilots in 45 to be making extra notes or details when they spotted one)

the Allies had AS pretty much by May 44 or before, it was not the GE in command of the air, but in the game, it is very easy, for the Allies to never really ever gain AS

(which as you know, for me, from day 1, AS is pretty much my main goal, every thing I do and plan is based on breaking the LW's back, as soon as I can, but how many players play like I do ?, or want to play as I do)

if the AI or GE player can bring in a horde of 190 D's, the Allies should be able to counter it with Tempies, and Tempies II, later models of the Spit, if the GE can bring in hordes of 109 K's, the Allies should be able to counter with P-47 M's, N's H's and P-51 K's, if the GE can bring in Hordes of 262's, the Allies should be able to bring in P-80's and Metoers (and I don't even like either of those planes or want them)

(which we also got to remember, there is a big difference, between real life being able to build something and not being able to use it, and game life, where anything built, goes right into action)





Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 6:09:39 PM)

The game has some problems with Research & Development, cause the hindsight.

From that, every german player will try to get the better planes just because they are equal or superior to the allied planes

If you try to counter this hindsight you have to forbid the german side... why ?
cause the kind of fight happen in btr nether happened in real life. The germans never had the "big hit", in btr you do it nearly all the time (concentrate your fore and attack the allied bombers with several 100 fighters).

In BOB it was not so important cause the time was short enough that no planes could be in the scenario much earlier.

For BtR we have this problem (similar to WitP)
The questions are - as far as i see em
1.) How could germany speed up R&D at certain planes/engines ?
2.) How much liberty to R&D do you give em
3.) How should the allies react to this situation ?
4.) are the allies enable to speed up their own plane R&D and even more important WHAT planes should they get (and how do they perform against german planes (without combat knowledge this is even more difficulty)

For the Prototype-aspect for the allied side. some ideas
1.) Most production should be not changeable, cause the allied production was in real life very static (just remember the tank-issue... they had better tanks but produced the very important sherman untill the end) - you could and should change the production numbers if necessary. For me it is unthinkable, that after 1.1.1944 the allies have not bombers and fighters in unlimited numbers (so if you loose 1000 B17G, you get 1000 other 4mot bombers, the germans canīt achieve victory in numbers)
2.) Some planes (like p47 or p51 (later in the war)) there should be a trigger for production of these better versions. Say, you take a kill-ratio (that is randomized between 1:3 and 1:6 (or something else, just for example)) and if this kill-ratio is reached these planes will be produced (again, the numbers to produce em should start slower and then "explode" if the player says "i want em")
3.) Meteor could be ignored cause it was no anti-fighterplane... for that any p51D was better suited so this problem is no real problem to think about
4.) mystified p80... well here i think it could get hot (not from me;) )because some say this plane could have been in the war in early 45 and some say that such version of a p80 would be a "breakdown"-plane with more losses by accident. Cause the engines made huge problems (some say these problems could only be solved after german knowlegde was used)

Now the german side, here my knowledge is much better.
1.) german airforce production was a nightmare. Everyone who do it, will do it better as in history. So, if you allow the player to control production you change history. Nobody leave the original production (or he is mind ill)
This means the germans can improve their production - and with r&d every german player will improve the better planes.
2.) some planes could be in the game much earlier... cause the political impact hampered (?) the prododuction
Most important plane was the He219 as i mentioned. And as a german player i will mass produce it, simply cause it is the best nightfighter and even used as a dayfighter it is terrible to allied bombers (if they have no fighter cover 200 He219 would kill many many bombers with little losses, just for the ultra heavy figherpower)
Planes that could be faster in the game could be (just because of more r&d and no political influence)
He219
Ta152H
Me262*
FW190D
Do335
Go229 (if you want to put it in the game)

The Ta152H was a FW190C
If you are interested i could get some sources...
*: The airframe was done (or take the He280), the engines were the problem (cause of the use of non-strategic material for production - not the engine itself. This is a seldom recognized thing. With "american" resources the Me262 could be in the air in Spring 43)
3.) How could you react in the game with this planes say 1 year earlier (Do335, Me262) ?
They are sure superior to the allied planes and if massproduced AND in the hands of veterans the game has a problem (as we know) To bring in even more superior allied planes will not solve it, because these planes could only be pushed in production later on (how will this be in the game ?) and against the Me262 do such plane not exist. The germans had superiority in Jets for estimated 1 1/2 years
But things that could help should be
- better bombers (B29, B36) could come into service
- more fighters and squadrons (american) could come (say, they will be drawn from the pacific war)

So, how would the superior german fighters could stand against the better bombers ? Also, the slower german planes are vastly inferior... and if a german player can built 1000 Me262 in May44 and 1000 Ta152 in June, the allied player had deserved his fate.

I love the idea of "draw pacific units" and "new units" in the ETO... because what alternative chance had had the allies in history ?
Say in Spring 44 the germans had killed 800 bombers at the "big day" ? Would they go home ? Sureley not. They would have pressed even more troops/pilots/squadrons into service to eliminate this new danger. Could the game handle this ?

Also, the AI should not be the real problem (if playing the allied side) and for the german player you have it in your own hands...

Maybe bring in the p47/p51/Spitfire-afterwar-models in the game with a randomized factor... give it a number (low) and for each day the allied got kicked their *** the number rise. Then compare this number with the Trigger-Number and if reached bring it into service.
Same with new bombers or b29 in the ETO

But no plane will help againt the me262 or do335 (as a bomberkiller), they are in the attack just to fast. Start/landing is something different
And this is simply historical fact (only a jetengine heavy bomber would help here). Also the game has its problems with this (how often could the fighter cover catch me262 (something they were not able to do cause of the speed issue)) - something that should be fixed.

One thing to solve a little the me262-probleme is the planes ready to fly... tripple the factor for damaged/refitted jetfighters, so the german can bring 200 jet in the air instead of 600

But the idea of a what-if-scenario with newer allied toys could be interesting too...

If you would develop a total new game i would suggest other things, like "german jet come into allied hands" or a complete redone R&D-Work. The actual method is bad, but we have no other.

I wrote to much, sorry for that. I just look forward a redone btr with some large interest (btr was better as witp even if the second is the newer game) - but i think a redone BOB should be the first step (so you could test all these trigger events)



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 6:20:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

quote:

Another problem btr does not shows is the "developing in a row"... you could speed up the FW190D and the Ta152H similar. But in history, the germans developted them one after the other. But i fear the game could not simulate this ?


I got to disagree with this thought

the 190 D was a stop gap improvement to the 190 A, while the Ta 152 was the new and improved model

Yeah i know - just for the game it could help with r&d....

so, both could be built, researched at the same time (which the 152 should be much HARDer to research)
not if you would do it "fair". If the germans had resarched the FW190C with anything they had, it could be in mass production late 43...

I am not to sure about the, have to have the idea, for the 335, it was a simple idea, and nothing new to the time frame, there were many pusher ideas during this time or before

the idea was from 1941... so let this guy talk to hitler in 1941 and it could fly in late 43/early44

good point about the compondites, the radar didn't make the plane, the plane made the plane, the Radar helped it, if the 240 wasn't ready yet, the 220 would of been used, or the 210, or the model A


i allways hated this in the original game. "Sir, we have 2000 Parts of Me262B here, but sadly no Radar " "Son, destroy em, cause the plane is not "complete"

I would like to have say a way, to bring or advance Allied new models, based on something the GE do, but we need to keep it away from being abled to be Gamed, say, 2000 262's made, the P-80 is ready, so the player stops making 262's when they reach 1800

What about the "Counter-idea" i described ? But leave alone the p80 for that. It could not defend the bombers (range) (or should it be a "game-solution-über-plane" ? If the german can produce much earlier so many me262 and have the pilots to man em, the allied player deserve his fate.

one of the other points I was trying to make for the Allies, there were many planes being made, tested, designed, that didn't go anywhere, basicly, because they were not needed, I believe the P47 H was worked on in the sring of 44

hm, how long untill this plane could be ready to mass produce ? Say 10 Months later ? 12 ?

, a plane that could reach 485 MPH, in early 44, was dropped, not needed (and this was before the Bubble Top 47 was standard (well, the Test models of the H were razerbacks)

This idea sounds well and bad for me... well cause you could bring in better planes cause the better piston engine planes on the axis side come into service. But what is about range ? Does this improved model help against jets ? (no - their exist no defence against jets with piston engine fighters) and the allies did nothing from summer 44 (cause they know it)

the XP 72 was a suped up 47 H, this was hitting 505 MPH


As i see it, the german player can bring in better quality if he is able to fight in 43 a great fight. So give him his chance to kick allied butts (cause 9 out of 10 will loose the game cause of their try)

If you switch production to jet fighters you pay a huge price... some people seem to forget this. And as i mentioned, if the allied player do not use his chance (limited german production) he is just to bad to win and deserve the kicks...



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 8:38:17 PM)

Hi Adnan
you have some points, but you may be missing some of mine

I am not saying the Allies would need to reseach or make new planes, they had them already, and stopped work on them, the P-47 H blows the doors off the Do-335, and that was worked on and stopped in spring of 44, because it was not needed

(and don't forget, the Do-335 never worked, they never were able to get the engine overheat problum solved, and in that case, the 262 never really was ready, the engines still tended to flame out, if the trottles were not used just right, and it didn't relight in midair)

the P-80, don't forget, the P-80 was in the ETO, during the war, it also flew, it never engaged in combat, but it flew in the ETO during the war, we could tie in a higher repair rate, for this plane, and the 262/335

for some of the other stuff, we will be able to have the A and B groups for the VIII FC, and we should also be able to add in the A and B groups for VIII BC also, that all but doubles the US numbers (well, doubles the VIII at least)

good points on how the GE is able to conduct the war, this is a fine line, type deal, if we make the game more Real, it is going to be some 1400 planes on a raid and 80 GE trying to get close enough to make a attack, and get slaughtered as they do, you don't have a game then

you bring up the M4 a few times, one thing you may be missing, forgetting, the M4 was build for a reason, it was never intented to kill GE tanks, the Anti-tank guns and tank hunters (M10-M-36) were to do that, the M4 was to break though the lines and get behind the Enemy and raise havoc

of course, with the way the battlefield ended up being, it had to be a face to face fight, which the M4 was not designed to do, or stand, once it broke though, it did what it was designed for

I am not sure it is fair to say, the Ally played gets what he should , if he don't do this or that, most players may not know or see, how many planes they need to kill each day, or they start to fall behind the eightball, and then there is the weather, every day of bad weather, the GE gets a free days builds

of course, as you say, hindsight is one of the hassles, we know what this or that plane should do, or we can see what the stats will be, and then there are the stats

should the 109 K have such numbers ?, according to the GE pilots, the G10 was the best of the late war 109's, not the K or the G14 (a oddity, the G-10 was a later model then the G-14 was)

according to the pilots, the K was too heavy, too big a engine and too heavy a weight in firepower, the frame could not take it (put a big enough engine on it, a rock will fly) the 109 K was one of the first of the so called Lead Sleds, all power and all speed, but nothing else, it couldn't turn, it couldn't roll, it couldn't dogfight (sort of like the current Mig 25-31)

(I am a beta tester on a couple of Flight sims)

best we can do, is debate and try to get a feel for what would be best and then see if we can come close to doing that

keep posting



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 10:02:20 PM)

Well, just let us say that the sherman-problem was known very early in the war (the second they meet the tiger they knew they had a problem) and the TD-Idea is a good example for stupidity (on paper it looked good, but it does not worked in real life - and my point is, that the american staff did not react (and replace the bad sherman by better tanks (they could have done it))

And this was the idea behind my opinion - Ignorance could kill a lot people. Similar to your comment with the p47... cause the jug wasnīt superior to german planes in summer 44, so the pilots deserved a better plane but did not get it (cause of the ignorance of backup hqs)

So i agree about better allied planes, but even then the p47 is no match to the fastest piston engine plane (yes, the Do335). The problems with overheating was solved, the problem was the destroyed prototypes (by american planes in spring 45) But as i said, problem is hindsight. Knowing that the Do335 will solve 80% of my problems (and 99% in combination with the Ta152H against the fighter cover in high level fights) i will produce em as much as possible (playing the germans)

For the p80 - they had the same engine problems the germans had (in 1943), so a mass produced p80 in the game is nothing near reality, but that is just my opinion.

For the 1000 Bombers, covered by 1400 fighters fight against 80 german fighters, well that WAS history. So we should work this way. Anything else is SciFi and also is the problem. The player sees 250 german fighters (veteran pilots) attack 120 bombers, after that another 300 and then in the near of Leipzig the next 180... and the results are dissapointing (we do not know what this example would have done, but propably had wiped out all bombers. The american player is dissapointed too, cause he has losses they never had.

So maybe we should work with the german numbers of ready planes. The german dayfighter force was never stronger than around 750 fighter and no more than 400 were ready to fight, shattered around germany. In BtR this is the force i had anytime in the area between the ruhr and hamburg, ready to hammer any allied 4mot force.

And again i beg to remember that as a german you have to pay a huge price too preproduce many new toys...

the weather is another problem of the game. As the allies i allways had bad weather, as the german allways good. (against the ai) strange ?

And the "free" day of production is true - but thats war.

Its the old game of "Historical" vers. "fantasy"... i bet some history-fanboys just wait to ambush you. I suggest to shrink any german group to 1/3 (12 instead of 36), so the numbers are a smaller problem

Or you reduce the production numbers a lot for 1943...

As i see it, some fanboys allways will cry. Esp. Allied-fanboys want allways the "superior" plane, cause the allies won the war, so the equippment has to be superior. Like axis-fanboys canīt understand that in russia 41-43, the russians allways had the better tanks. (beside the few tigers)

But what happen if you build in automatical new allied planes... like the p47M or P80? The german player save a lot engines, parts and retooling and get a better plane slightliy earlier (say the me262 in 01/44 instead 5/44) and also he has production ready for 200 per month in 2/44

And for that, in september 44 1000 P80 jump in with a range that makes them useful ? That would be silly for me. Better the improvements costs much (so much that another player who plays "historically" had stockpiled so many piston engine fighters that he can switch anything to me262)

Short - what good do faster research for german player if this just mean that even more superior allied planes jump in to kill em ? Or even worse, german player do only marginal research and the ultra strong allied side gets even more superior (if we mess the extra allied plane schedule - we talk about turn 300 in such game...)

The Me109K is just an example... i know that the Me109G10 was labeld the best Me109. But as a fan for bmw-driven planes (FW190, i love their punch) i do not care about em (only the staff fly them in my games, to kill recons)

To be honest, so much things should be changed in BTR, R&D is silly (i mean, you have "built" 10000 Airframes and 20000 parts but the problem is the engine. To switch the airframes you delayed any production for 3 Months.... you know what i mean) and the production system is a joke. Also the pilot-problems (some mentioned it - in mid44 it was common for german pilots to jump out of the plane and parachute cause of damages but ingame this means "pilot killed" but on the other side you produce tons of pilots and in my last version i had the bug that new pilots got only slightly worse than the average of the Gruppe... so with 90% Experience i drew a lot start-of-experten !)

Also, the numbers of planes. Why should it be a problem ? Make em real. If the german player is able to mount 300 fighers against unescorted bombers (who are shattered by flak) they will make a massace. But to do so, you have to evacuate a lot other areas and you will pay for it

Also, make the pilots more important. An Experte is a killer, but an badly trained newbie is just an easy target and happy to land safty. But if the axis mount 200 experten (85+ Experience) then this will be expensive, etc... you know what i mean. But i do not know if this game can be modified for that. If not, we should help you with input so the old game can be improved. If i had the newer patches i would play it again (but after a crash i have only the original-1999-Version and sorry, this is not playable...)

Oh, we need a lot more waypoints for the allied side ;)
and the groundattacks should be improved
and the recon-missions trippled
and...

okay, iīm teasing you [:D]
Go on. Great job

But as i said, start with BOB to experience with the new features. BTR is a monster and it is frustrating if you played 200 turns and then have to restart

anyway
i wish a nice weekend



Roo -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 10:29:27 PM)

There are some problems here with the research.

If the Germans can carry out research of advanced designs, why in heck can the Allied player not drag Whittle away from the Rover Car company and give him to, say, Rolls-Royce? The jet engine was delayed years by this decision.

As for the Meteor not being an anti-fighter plane, it wasn't used in the role, and I'm not sure on it's manuouvrebility, but given it's sucess in V-1 hunting I would at least expect it to be effective aginst bombers/jet bombers.

Finally, I very much doubt that the P-80 would have had serious problems with the engines. The prototype used the DeHavilland H1 turbojet, built in 1943. Given that the Whittle W2/7000 - the first Allied jet engine used to power an aircraft - was air-tested on 15th May 1941, there were some 2 further years of development, without the lack of alloys etc. that the Germans suffered.



otisabuser2 -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/28/2006 11:12:05 PM)

Adnan,

again you have used an example which actualy proves the opposite to what you intend. Though the M4 Sherman may have been kept in production until the war ended. That is not to say it was not improved. Aplique armour was introduced, heavier guns were added as a result of combat testing ( 76mm and 17pdr ). There was a more heavier armed Jumbo version as well as a 105mm howitzer version, that I can currently recall.

It was kept in the Allied inventory, not through stupidity, but through necessity. There were thousands of them equipping just about every Allied armoured division. It would not have been possible to produce 3000 alternatives overnight and introduce them during an intensive campaign. Other tanks were slowly fed in ( Pershings, Comets and Centurions ).

The Sherman suited the Allied doctrine, which persistantly beleived the war was going to be over shortly.

The case was slightly different for the Allied airforces, where there was always a diversity of planes. Squadrons were far removed from the battle-line and it was easier to slot in new types.

I do agree with you, that having a policy where an Axis new plane type automatically means the Allies will have a new one is wrong. As you say, it make the whole point of Axis research somewhat pointless.

We have some nice alternatives though.

regards Otis



von Shagmeister -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 2:04:34 AM)



quote:

for some of the other stuff, we will be able to have the A and B groups for the VIII FC, and we should also be able to add in the A and B groups for VIII BC also, that all but doubles the US numbers (well, doubles the VIII at least)


Hi Sarge,

Effectively USAAF heavy bomb groups are already flying 'B' Groups. At the moment you can put up 32 a/c, in reality operations normally consisted of 18 a/c per group (as well as flying spares to fill in gaps caused by technical aborts) - 6 a/c per Sqn with a 4th Sqn rested every op. If it was an maximum effort squadrons would try and put up 7 or 8 a/c and composite groups formed from the 4th Sqns from each group but these maximum efforts where few and far between because of the strain it imposed on the maintenance and servicing.

Other than the above knit picking point this is a very interesting discussion, pros and cons on both sides of the argument.

von Shagmeister



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 1:40:35 PM)

Roo, the question of what-if is allways difficulty to answer.
The Whitlle will develop a jetengine 3 years earlier because he change company could be countered by "what if his mother never had met his father"... i agree, what-ifs are allways a problem
But to say "i wish the allies had an jetengine fighter in the war cause the evil krauts had em" is err, slightly missing the point in the game.

The Meteor was basicly a bad plane with two jet engines... so it was inferior to allied piston engine planes.
It was useful as a platform to learn more about jetplanes and it was able to shot down V1-missles.
If we had axis bombers in the game it could be used as a bomberkiller. But because we have em not in the game what purpose could it have ? The range is to short, the durability is laughable, the engines make trouble (like any jetengine in this stage of development) and its manouverability is like a stone - zero. So just drop the idea of the Meteor in the game (cause it is basicly "bombers and fightercover vers fighters" with the fighters on the axis side and they have better jet engine fighters as the Meteor [:D])

For the P80.... this plane was possible because the brits shared their knowledge about jet technics in 1943... it was developted very quick, but it had its fall backs. They managed to bring some prototypes in the air - the german prototype of Me262 fly in Spring 42... so this means nothing.
And belive it or not, the allies were 1 year behind the germans in jet technics and aeordynamics.

But we surely could do the What-if "Timewarped F22 slaughter german airforce in 1939" - the question what this is worth for this game and the existing problems (too many german planes, too fast developemet, etc...) is another point



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 1:42:14 PM)

Otisabuser2,

the sherman is a hot iron [:D]

My point is: The allies had better tanks (for both purpose) but did not produce em by ignorance and the tank crews payed for it.

Everthing else is just a point of view. So just let us say we hae no agreement about this [;)][:)]



otisabuser2 -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 2:18:16 PM)

Adnan,

My point is: Two of the examples you give to demonstrate your point of Allied lack of development, are in fact false. The Spitfire and the Sherman WERE both actually updated, and as a direct result of combat experience.

I am not denying that there were better tanks the Allies could have used.

The Allies had secret weapons in development as much as the Axis did. Development was often slowed or halted because there did not seem to be the need for them.

Remember, the Allies were expecting the war to be over shortly, once Overlord happened. The Germans on the the other hand were determined to fight on. This meant that the Allies saw little point in developing many new aircraft that were going to be surplus after the war.

On the other hand, had new German wonder weapons arrived which looked like stalling the Allied offensive, things would have been very different from the Allied development perspective.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 3:54:57 PM)

LOL
we need to drop the M4

but...

you over look a lot of things about the M4, in the long run, the GE wished that they had it, it was relieable, it could travel, most armies had to carry there tanks to where they wanted them to be, off load them, and then attack, and the battle was over

on paper, the M4 is much better then the MAIN ge tank, the Mk IV, just the 75mm gun on the GE tank is better, but, between the M4 and Mk IV, either lands a shot, it is a kill

of course, the MK V was better, it was better then almost anything, Med and Heavy, the MK VI should not be used as a compareion tank, it was a super Heavy and was a monster, which the M4 was not designed to fight

funny you mention the SU tanks being better, funny, how many T-34's were made and yet, by the end of the war, the SU were still in need of tanks ? , it was a super tank, but they lost them by the 1000's, and in the end, 10's of 1000's

but as I say, bad comparions

the P-47 was out classed ? by what ? A plane that might of been ? , which as I already said, the P-47 H was faster and the XP-72 would of been faster yet, but they wern't needed and so were not built

I would like to see the Tempy and Tempy II bought into the game and work

which if push came to shove, what about the navel planes ?, the F4u4 would of made a mess out of anything the GE put into the air, outside of the 262, and the 262 still couldn't fight the F4u, we would also of been able to add the Bearcat, what GE plane could of came out of a Dogfight with that ?, and for the attack side, what about the Skyraider ? most people forget that was a WWII plane, that came too late to see action, we also got the Tigercat, or the F-82



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 4:40:38 PM)

for the Do-335

in the game I believe it is a much better plane then it would of been in real life, it was a poor flyer, it had trouble staying level, it liked to porpoising and snaking

they had trouble with the twin engines air flow, the 2nd engine was higher then the 1st and the airflow from the first gave trouble

the top speed was 477, but the sustained speed was 413 (HARDly a world beater)
(don't forget, a lot of your WEP were added to give you a chance to live, you ruined the engine if you used it, but it got you out of trouble)

about 90 were made, 60 flew, 20 made it to combat units

so, to all intents, it should be a fanasay plane, or at least, very HARD to reseach and build in numbers (if you want it in numbers, you got to pay for it)

{which I should tell you, I love the 335 in the game, it is a monster}




Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 4:54:41 PM)

now this is scary

Grumman engineers included a novel feature into the design of the Bearcat's wings. In the event of excessively high "G" loads during maneuvering, the wingtips would break away to allow the shortened wings to safely withstand a higher "G" factor. The folding portion of the wing was designed to fail at half the distance to the tip if the plane exceeded 9 'G's." Problems with this system led to the addition of explosive bolts along the separation line, If only one tip separated, the explosive bolts would assure that the opposite side was ejected also. This would allow half of the aileron area to remain, but greatly reduced the stress on the balance of the wing structure permitting it to withstand even higher forces.

yuck, and the experts complain that the 109 pilots didn't like the slats on the 109 opening and closeing during a turn, how about just blowing off the wing tips instead [:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]



HMSWarspite -> RE: Researching German A/C (1/29/2006 9:14:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

The Meteor was basicly a bad plane with two jet engines... so it was inferior to allied piston engine planes.
It was useful as a platform to learn more about jetplanes and it was able to shot down V1-missles.


What do you base this on? Inferior in what respect? It was a big twin engine fighter, and not as agile as a Spitfire. It had a few bad habits (poor low speed single engine handling), but remained in production until 1954, even though Vampires were available. It was only superceded when Hunters came in (an undeniable improvement, but a generation on in experience)
quote:


If we had axis bombers in the game it could be used as a bomberkiller. But because we have em not in the game what purpose could it have ? The range is to short, the durability is laughable, the engines make trouble (like any jetengine in this stage of development) and its manouverability is like a stone - zero. So just drop the idea of the Meteor in the game (cause it is basicly "bombers and fightercover vers fighters" with the fighters on the axis side and they have better jet engine fighters as the Meteor [:D])

You are falling in to the trap of highlighting all the defects of one side, and ignoring those of the opposition. The Meteor was a far more 'finished' aircraft than the 262, and yes, it had poorer performance, however it was FAR more reliable, and suffered far less from engine handling restrictions. The Mk2 had a far better engine than the 262 in terms of reliabilty and materials technology (due to materials shortages in Germany). The Mk3 went some way to address the speed differential.
quote:


For the P80.... this plane was possible because the brits shared their knowledge about jet technics in 1943... it was developted very quick, but it had its fall backs. They managed to bring some prototypes in the air - the german prototype of Me262 fly in Spring 42... so this means nothing.
And belive it or not, the allies were 1 year behind the germans in jet technics and aeordynamics.


You might be correct in terms of aerodynamics, but you are generalising for the jet techniques. They were using the axial compressor in service before the Allies, and you could call that advanced. The 262 might have flown in Spring 1942, however that was the flight that started with 2 jets and ended with zero working. The first 'real' flight was July 1942, and that was the start of a very difficult development programme for the engines. I have been trying to find my sources, but have failed so far. You will have to rely on my memory. The Jumo 004 had an overhaul life of only just over 10 hrs to start with. The Derwent (IIRC) had 100 hrs to overhaul. Even 100 hrs is terrible (although most piston fighter engines only flew about that much before something finished them). The life of the 004 means that a large fleet of 262 aircraft would have needed a small army of support vehicles to keep them in the air. Do not under-estimate this when thinking about 262 on the game! The issue the game misses out entirely is the difficulty of supporting the 262 (AND 163). They ought to draw huge ammounts of German industrial output and transport just to keep flying let alone increasing to the numbers we can see, and people think the Ge should build!



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