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Nikademus -> (7/13/2000 3:02:00 AM)

Charles; but at an angle of 30 degrees. even at 120mm thickness, an AoI of 30 degrees would be difficult for most Allied weapons to penetrate. That would even give a Russian 85mm a tough time. I'd could see the Tiger I mantlet/Turret rating being parred down to around 145-150. Even if there's still some controversy, that would still make the Tiger the tough opponent we all know it to be. It just would'nt be invincible from that quarter anymore



Charles22 -> (7/13/2000 3:21:00 AM)

As I've seen before, there are those who want to water down history, and there are those who do not. A Tiger without history to it, whatever that may be, IS NOT a Tiger, but a figment on what people think is "fair". I'm not interested in buttering down units, but rather in dealing with them. I wholly intend on dealing with them when fighting as the Soviets. I have my ways.... (diabolical laughter at this point) In playing as the Soviets, I've seen a Finnish sniper slay a KVI on it's side armor (the sniper only has a rifle)!!! Soviets have a lovely little cheap unit called partisans (recon no less) which costs like 5 points for six men (now that's a deal!), which have a rifle and some grenade or something. I will find my ways, I will find my ways.....(even more diabolical laughter)



Paul Vebber -> (7/13/2000 3:50:00 AM)

A sniper shot with its rifle and killed a KV? That ain't supposed to happen...At what range? ITs possible it could hit and tehcrew bail (if they were VERY poor) but it is supposedly impossible for small arms calss weapons to penetrate any armor in the game.



Charles22 -> (7/13/2000 4:02:00 AM)

Just seen it happen on battle one of my campaign, yesterday. They close-assaulted it with their daring rifle. They may had even hit the front turret, as I made sure and turned the turret that way before going forward one hex. It wasn't a cheap bailout either, the blooming thing was all-out destroyed. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 07-12-2000).]



Paul Vebber -> (7/13/2000 4:06:00 AM)

Ah in close assault ... PHEW...there is a 1% chance per man in a unit that they will find a way :-) It just happens to list the weapon. Shot the driver through the vision slit and the thing swerved off the road and tipped over or something...Thanks!



JJU57 -> (7/13/2000 4:12:00 AM)

I think the 1% chance is too high, especially without the necessary weapons. At your rate 1 out of 100 tanks that passed the sniper would be killed. Is there anyway to reduce that figure? Also does this mean that a 2 man crew had a 2% chance or just two 1% chances?



Jon Grasham -> (7/13/2000 5:51:00 AM)

hehe, nice that there IS that chance for those times when your SOL. Also gives some funny things to think about. The sniper who blew the tank up by beating it with his rifle butt, which caused a small spark, which landed in some fuel the crew had carelessly spilt back in the supply area, the flames made it inside, and boom! :-)



Fabio Prado -> (7/13/2000 6:08:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Thanks Fabio! The 130 APDS penetration at 30 degrees and 500 yards, agrees favorably with the 170-ish value in the game. I guess I mistook the deflected APCBC shot, been a while since I read that book. Is there a range for 6# APDS or 17lber or other shell that gives the estimated range for penetration? AT least we know that at 1200 yards the thing is fairly proof against 6# APDS :-)
Yes, for the 17 pounder. "Turret Mantlet at 40 degrees - 17 pounder APDS Strikes on this somewhat restricted target produced one fair hit which completely defeated the mantlet at 3482 ft/s. Round 43, passing through a thickened section of the casting and breaking up on the right side gun recoil cylinder casing. Further shooting was not possible owing to lack of space (too many rounds had been fired at this mantlet). It seems, however, that defeat would be likely up to a range of 1500 yards." FAP ------------------ Fabio Prado [email]fprado@fprado.com[/email] Webmaster - The ARMOR Site!



Paul Vebber -> (7/13/2000 6:13:00 AM)

Well its actually less than 1% because in order to get to the 1% a number checks are made for the sniper and the target. For some of these things one must remember its a game and if you make chances too small then why bother? History books are full of instances of weird things happening. Who knows what the real chances are? We assumed it was proportional to the number of men. The assumption being that troops often had a grenade or stick of C4 or something squirreled away, or maybe they found one on a nearby dead enemy? Adapt, Improvise, Overcome :-)



Scipio Africanus -> (7/13/2000 1:58:00 PM)

I have a question. As everyone seems very concerned that US ordnance cannot penetrate the front turret of the Tiger I (in theory, of course, this very thing has happened to me courtesy of APCR), was it actually that easy? In fact, were there any attested front turret Tiger I kills by US guns smaller than the 90mm L50? ------------------ Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus



JJU57 -> (7/13/2000 9:16:00 PM)

In playing Wild Bill's scenario 100 I had 10 Shermans going against a lone Tiger. I finally destroyed it after losing 7 tanks and one bailed crew. This seems about right to me.



Charles22 -> (7/13/2000 9:27:00 PM)

The thing that worried me about the sniper maniac, was that I'm under the belief that the Finn was highly experienced, while the KVI was not, and that this disparency alone made the assault actually very likely to do just what it did, without the armor being taken into consideration. BTW, for the snipr to have shot someonoe in the slit, the sniper would have to be not around the side of the tank, but the front. I would assume that there would be some way of securing the hatch from the inside, so that opening the hatch was unlikely. Who knows maybe it can be accounted for by blowing the engine, that is, if the engine had no armor protection to withstand a sniper rifle blast (and I assume it does). I don't recall the oods on the attack "hitting", during the assault, but it seems as though I saw 24% flash across.



Paul Vebber -> (7/13/2000 10:51:00 PM)

Again I simply offered a possibility for how the sniper (or any other inf unit) might take out a tank. There are any number of possibilities. As I've siad before, for infantry units trying to account for ammo in "shots" is pretty contrived, resupply hapened all teh time and scrounging and "holding out" was common in all armies. FOr infantry think of your self as teh COmbat Team CO, You know what the supply guys say teh unit has for ammo, but you can figure that for dire situations, an AT mine, or extra bazooka round, or thrown mortar shell or whatever may be around. THat is what that small percentage chance of assault is supposed to represent.



Charles22 -> (7/13/2000 11:33:00 PM)

Or maybe even a pointed stick, right?



Nikademus -> (7/14/2000 1:45:00 AM)

Here's what i really want to know.... now that i currently hold responsibility for creating the board's longest thread.....do i get my very own Tiger? Nikademus -A King Tiger can give you a definate edge.....on I-5 ;-)



Charles22 -> (7/14/2000 3:02:00 AM)

Nikademus: Nah, perhaps we could give you some of the SS training, where you dig a trench for yourself before it runs you over. Like the sniper you could scrounge up whatever may be lying on the ground around you: AT mine, forgotten about mortar shell, beer bottle, nice box of chocolates. Perhaps that's what's killing those KVIs, those snipers find chocolates and the KVI driver's so overjoyed that he blew up the tank himself.



Larry Holt -> (7/14/2000 3:40:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Nikademus: Here's what i really want to know.... now that i currently hold responsibility for creating the board's longest thread.....do i get my very own Tiger? Nikademus -A King Tiger can give you a definate edge.....on I-5 ;-)
Yes you do, one complementary Tiger. Just send in 40,000 Reichmarks for postage and handling. Please allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Nikademus -> (7/14/2000 7:25:00 PM)

and for my final test i must stand pefectly at attention while Herr Wittmann shoots an apple off my head with a PzGr40 round. ;-)



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