Frustration... can any one help... (Full Version)

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Przemcio231 -> Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 11:29:30 AM)

Hi is there a chance that something can be done in the next path to tie up base force nationality with the planes it supports...[&:][&:][&:]

Im Playing Japan ageainst Adm.Spruance... its the end of January and my Air force is beeing beaten by his US 4E's and 2E's in the DEI

Those attacks came from Singapore
Day Air attack on Johore Bahru , at 22,49

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 2

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 14
Blenheim IV x 37
Hudson I x 44
IL-4c x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21 Sally: 1 destroyed
G3M Nell: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 1 damaged
Blenheim IV: 1 damaged
Hudson I: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
37 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 6

Day Air attack on Kuching , at 28,56

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 14

Allied aircraft
Brewster 339D x 8
B-17C Fortress x 14
B-17E Fortress x 91

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 10 destroyed
G3M Nell: 6 destroyed
Ki-46-II Dinah: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Brewster 339D: 7 destroyed
B-17C Fortress: 1 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 3 destroyed, 11 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
443 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 14
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 105

Plus another one with about 60 B-25 and B-26 from Palambang.... I know its just a game but this is rediculus not yet 2 full months of the war and there is a 100 of B-17 bombing japanese airfields + lots of American 2E bombers if that would happen in reality the Japan would lose the war in a year... but i know its just a game but come on i know this 100 of B-17 its everything that he has on the Map at the Moment... so what will happen next when he upgrades his Bolo's... I noticed that transfering the AirGroups is to easy you just switch the assigment and the Transfer from PH to DEI takes less then a week... and what with Spare Parts????? technicans... and other stuff the same with other air group... you take one ship load like 64 2E bombers on it in a day then unload it weait few days before the planes are put operational and presto... Is there a chance that in some next path the Base force nationality will have some influence on the planes wich operate from a base[&:] it will end such nonsense like hundred's of US bombers in DEI two months in the War... plus i think some Air Groups like Australia Command , Home Defence , West Coast schuld have their attachment permanently with no chances of swithing that...[:D] Any way im totaly Frustrated with this Bomber offensive...



kellyc -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 12:02:28 PM)

I don't think you'll get what you need. However, the next game you try you might want to add some house rules to keep this from happening.
I've experienced the 'all forward defense' from the get go. It is very frustrating because if you don't get the DEI then the game is over because you can't keep your economy running for very long.

BTW your signature has a typo: milion is actually million.

Hang tough,
Kelly



castor troy -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 12:32:52 PM)

Solution: NIK´S MOD!!!! [&o]



Kapten Q -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 1:31:59 PM)

Well,

Singapore AFB shuld have been closed from the start using zero's, ki-21 and nells. Never stop bombing. If AVG shows up, more zero's. Once Singapore is closed the same should be done to Rangoon.

Upgraded Zero's and Ki-21's from home and kwantung area commands needs to be PP'd and moved to the front ASAP.

Use the KB in DEI to counter the massing of allied 2e and 4e bombers. Destroy them on the ground, or make him move them to other bases.

Use your uber BBTF's and shell the crap out off his AFB's. 6BB, 6CA couple off CL and DD's realy hurts.

Mass a 3-4 sentai fighter force in a rear area base, move foward to suprise one off his raids. Regroup and start over again. You do have enough AV and ENG support at important bases?

Mass your own airforce, remember in WitP numbers are everything. Mass, destroy target, next target and so on. Same goes for LCU and naval assets.

Q



Przemcio231 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 2:23:55 PM)

Well thanks for the Tips but i try to play this game kind of historicaly "do not coun't the early multiply landings[:D] so i do not mass my Airplanes into gigantic 200 planes Strikes or hundreds of fighters on Cap... it just don't give me any pleasure[:D][:D] The other thing about Singapore is that my Ground troops are Beasiging the place so hmmm when i set bombardment attack it should also do some damage to the Air base there... and on the other hand what commander would send his planes into a besiged island doomed to fall... As for the BB thing hmmm 2 my BB's were hit by torpedos so i kind of watch what im doeing[:D] and as for Upgrading Claudes to Zeros im producing over 220 Zeros a month and its still not enugh[:(]



tsimmonds -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 4:07:00 PM)

quote:

Singapore AFB shuld have been closed from the start using zero's, ki-21 and nells. Never stop bombing. If AVG shows up, more zero's.


I really don't believe that IJ can close Singapore's AB by bombing it from Saigon. You can close it with Sallys at normal range, if you work at it. The allied player can certainly make it interesting if he wants to though.



treespider -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 4:21:33 PM)

Another thread about players minimizing and maximizing....seems to be popular....and one of the reasons people seem to think the game is broken...ahistorical play = ahistorical results.



Sneer -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 4:38:31 PM)

build up Songhla/i'm not sure about spelling/ from turn 1 - should be ready in mid dec



Przemcio231 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 5:38:50 PM)

Come on i own whole Malaya and have bases with IJA base force and Some Aviation RGT about 300 Av support total in both Kuantan and Johore Bahru but i lack the fighter cover as i Used Zeros in Bombing Batavia from Kuching...



niceguy2005 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 6:01:28 PM)

Seems a tad bit gamey on his part, but not much and that said, where's your air force? YOu should have 100 zeros and 100 oscars up there against him. You should have 100-200 bombers hitting his air field. I don't care how formidable the B-17 is, you need to challenge it in the air and knock it down. If your CAP is strong enough, his B-17 replacement rate can't keep up with the air battles. He will either have to scale back his raids or the B-17 losses will be huge. If its the first months of the war you even still have the zero bonus.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 6:06:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

Singapore AFB shuld have been closed from the start using zero's, ki-21 and nells. Never stop bombing. If AVG shows up, more zero's.


I really don't believe that IJ can close Singapore's AB by bombing it from Saigon. You can close it with Sallys at normal range, if you work at it. The allied player can certainly make it interesting if he wants to though.

With enough figther and base support there is no possible way the allies can stand up to the Japanese for long with the zero bonus in effect, its hard enough without it.

Rules for Air Warfare.
1. Put a strong enough fighter force in an area to achieve total air superiority. Knock them out of the sky
2. Bring in enough bombers to wipe out the air fields. Kill them on the ground.
3. Don't try #2 until you have achieved #1.



hawker -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 7:53:33 PM)

quote:

build up Songhla/i'm not sure about spelling/ from turn 1 - should be ready in mid dec


I always use this tactic:

1.Take Khota Baru on day two
2.Repair airfield
3.unload avio refiments and base force
4.Put 300 Sallys and 200 zeros in Khota Baru
5.Destroy Singapore to pieces
6.Take Johore Baru
7.Destroy Singapore in small pieces
8.This tactic always work



hawker -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 7:55:02 PM)

quote:

I really don't believe that IJ can close Singapore's AB by bombing it from Saigon. You can close it with Sallys at normal range, if you work at it. The allied player can certainly make it interesting if he wants to though.


Khota Baru is essential AF for bombarding Singapore[;)]



Przemcio231 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 8:06:16 PM)

I had about 100 Zero's... in Kuching but i needed them to cover my air raids on Batavia... Oscars are mostly in Burma covering my troops dashing to Lashio and Mitkyina... and my ground troops are besieging Singapore... i do not play this with this Gamey tactic's sending 200... 2E bombers on a Raid i try to keep my raids as large as about 100 2E + 50 fighters that the game would look something more realistic... i could stack my entire air force in Kuching , Johore and Kuantan and bomb singapore out of subbmision but this kind of game dose not give me any plesure from playing[:D][:D] who ever heard of that happening during the IIWW that some country send his entire air force into one place...[:D]



pauk -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 8:14:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Come on i own whole Malaya and have bases with IJA base force and Some Aviation RGT about 300 Av support total in both Kuantan and Johore Bahru but i lack the fighter cover as i Used Zeros in Bombing Batavia from Kuching...


Change your tactic... leave Batavia to your fast BB's[:D]... move Zeros to Malaya.

The key is to have several AFs in Malaya under your control with enough AV support:

Khota Baru (lvl 6), Georgetown and Alor Star (both lvl 4). Ok, now your opponent have to keep an eye on 3 AFs... if he choose to attack KB you can use G-town and Alor...etc...etc...

Or, you can leave Malaya skies supperiority to the Allies... what he can attack then? empty AFs? your ground troops - if he start with that just move Zeros in AF and set a nice ambush.

I was never faced with B17 threat until String showed me a hell in Malaya - but then i learned my lesson and left fake Allied air superiority in Malaya; after then i ambushed the enemy and B-17s were never seen in Malaya skies again....



hawker -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 8:14:20 PM)

quote:

I had about 100 Zero's... in Kuching but i needed them to cover my air raids on Batavia... Oscars are mostly in Burma covering my troops dashing to Lashio and Mitkyina... and my ground troops are besieging Singapore... i do not play this with this Gamey tactic's sending 200... 2E bombers on a Raid i try to keep my raids as large as about 100 2E + 50 fighters that the game would look something more realistic... i could stack my entire air force in Kuching , Johore and Kuantan and bomb singapore out of subbmision but this kind of game dose not give me any plesure from playing who ever heard of that happening during the IIWW that some country send his entire air force into one place...


First of all,its not gamey to sent 200 bomers in attack from level 6 AF.[;)]
Second,DEI is your primary target in start of war and you should have more zeros there.
Third,because of all that you are bombarded and you will learn lesson quickly.

Its against my code to use elite zero pilots on LRCAP in start of war. You have the power,your troops are best,zeros is best plane in sky,dont let him to bombard you with 4E,not at this stage.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 8:22:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

Second,DEI is your primary target in start of war and you should have more zeros there.



I disagree with this. You need to finish off PI and Sing as quick as possible so that you can divert your resources there to other areas. If you start too many battles at once the IJA will get bogged down. Stop your attacks on Batavia until you have the ground troops freed up to begin your assualt. Unitl then let the dutch air force do what it wants, it is relatively harmless anyway. Although one alternative to consider is hunker down at sing and let him bomb away. If you have taken Borneo and can free about 3-4 divisions worth of troops go for a blitz of Java and Sumatra. YOu can cut the line of retreat for his air units and trap them at sing.



hawker -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 8:29:02 PM)

quote:

I disagree with this. You need to finish off PI and Sing as quick as possible so that you can divert your resources there to other areas. If you start too many battles at once the IJA will get bogged down. Stop your attacks on Batavia until you have the ground troops freed up to begin your assualt. Unitl then let the dutch air force do what it wants, it is relatively harmless anyway. Although one alternative to consider is hunker down at sing and let him bomb away. If you have taken Borneo and can free about 3-4 divisions worth of troops go for a blitz of Java and Sumatra. YOu can cut the line of retreat for his air units and trap them at sing.


DEI is primary,DEI is everything.
I always (when i can)take DEI together with Singapore,PI can wait a little.
They will not runaway,you can be sure of that[;)]
If you are Japan you have these major tasks:
1.OIL
2.OIL
3.RESOURCES
4.RESOURCES

Who cares for lousy attols of pacific[:D].
DEI is my kingdom[;)]



niceguy2005 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 8:47:25 PM)

I don't dispute the importance of DEI, only the order of attack. If sing is neutralized, fine, go take Java, but if it is still active and tying up a lot of ground troops go finish it off. I have seen so many Japanese players get bogged down because they try to take everything at once. I think the Japanese can effectively fight 3 major campaigns at once, not counting china. So if PI is still active and Burma is active and Malaya is active then what? If done this way conquest of these areas will take days to weaks, not months.



Przemcio231 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 9:18:30 PM)

The situation in my game looks like this... Iv conquered Mandaly and now im dashing twards Lchio and Mitkyna... Malaya is all mine exept for Singapore... Timor Celebes and Borneo are in my hands , in the Philipines the only Allied troops left are in Manila wich is Besieged and on a small island called Cebu i think[:)]



Feinder -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 9:28:10 PM)

Hawker, I think the reason that most Japanese PBEM player put less emphasis on DEI early, is because the Dutch happily stack the oil and resources for you. It actually works in their benefit to not initially push hard in DEI.

Take the jewel Palembang. If you do nothing in DEI, it accumulates what, 700 oil a day? It just stacks neatly on the docks. The faucets cannot be turned OFF. If you go for Palembang quickly, maybe you don't have the resources to pulverize the engineers well enough. They demolish half the facilities. It would have been better to let the Dutch stack the oil neatly for you, until it is ready to be captured. Furhermore, if you capture Palembang before Java, every Allied B-17 is bomb the crap out of the place.

Japan has enough stocks for several months. Most PBEM opponents will use those stocks to capture places that they could not have otherwise, if they waited until DEI was secure (ex. Port Moresby, Noumea, etc).

The forces in DEI aren't going anywhere (restricted command). You do have to keep the Allies from reinforcing DEI, but you don't actually have to CAPTURE much of it early on. I have one opponent that didn't invade anything but Malaya and PI until mid-March.

It's not historical, but it works.

-F-



Mike Solli -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 9:31:34 PM)

Try 4200 oil per turn. I captured Palembang in Mar 42 and there was some 300k oil there. I can't ship it out fast enough.[:D] The only reason I waited so long was to ensure there weren't any Allied air bases in striking range of Palembang. I like to take the DEI as soon as possible because that leaves me more time to ship the stuff to the Home Islands before the US subs become effective.



hawker -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 9:40:36 PM)

quote:

Hawker, I think the reason that most Japanese PBEM player put less emphasis on DEI early, is because the Dutch happily stack the oil and resources for you. It actually works in their benefit to not initially push hard in DEI.

Take the jewel Palembang. If you do nothing in DEI, it accumulates what, 700 oil a day? It just stacks neatly on the docks. The faucets cannot be turned OFF. If you go for Palembang quickly, maybe you don't have the resources to pulverize the engineers well enough. They demolish half the facilities. It would have been better to let the Dutch stack the oil neatly for you, until it is ready to be captured. Furhermore, if you capture Palembang before Java, every Allied B-17 is bomb the crap out of the place.

Japan has enough stocks for several months. Most PBEM opponents will use those stocks to capture places that they could not have otherwise, if they waited until DEI was secure (ex. Port Moresby, Noumea, etc).

The forces in DEI aren't going anywhere (restricted command). You do have to keep the Allies from reinforcing DEI, but you don't actually have to CAPTURE much of it early on. I have one opponent that didn't invade anything but Malaya and PI until mid-March.

It's not historical, but it works.

-F-


You have the the right Feinder,as always[&o]
Reason why i so obssesed with DEI is because,in all my games(and i played much so far) i always get under pressure with oil/resources. If i have enough,i am scared,if i have less,i am scared. Thats is OBSESSION by oil/resources.
Look my adventure in Russia against GH,i even less care about VPs. I want Komsomolsk industry(880 HI),i want Okha(440 oil),etc...



Feinder -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/8/2006 10:54:03 PM)

quote:

Hawker - You have the the right Feinder,as always


Can you tell my wife that? She seems to think otherwise.

[;)]

Glad to help.

-F-



racndoc -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/9/2006 5:41:51 AM)

Two thoughts initially on this matter from a strategic point of view:


1) I doubt that the Japanese would have gone heavily into Burma before capturing Singapore

2) Its just as dangerous for the Japanese to leave an UNDAMAGED level 6 airfield in their rear in 1942 as it is for the Allies to leave an undamaged level 6 airfield in their rear in 1944.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/9/2006 7:14:48 AM)



I don't see your problem. The Allies have parked a sizeable amount of their airpower within your grasp,stop complaining and take the opportunity for what it is and blow the living crap out of him!Its january 42' You OWN HIM![sm=00000959.gif]



Kapten Q -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/9/2006 2:03:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Well thanks for the Tips but i try to play this game kind of historicaly "do not coun't the early multiply landings[:D] so i do not mass my Airplanes into gigantic 200 planes Strikes or hundreds of fighters on Cap... it just don't give me any pleasure[:D][:D] The other thing about Singapore is that my Ground troops are Beasiging the place so hmmm when i set bombardment attack it should also do some damage to the Air base there... and on the other hand what commander would send his planes into a besiged island doomed to fall... As for the BB thing hmmm 2 my BB's were hit by torpedos so i kind of watch what im doeing[:D] and as for Upgrading Claudes to Zeros im producing over 220 Zeros a month and its still not enugh[:(]


I't looks like your opponent is not thinking the way you do.

He started it, now go and spank his behind. It's januari 42 after all! [sm=00000106.gif]



Przemcio231 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/9/2006 2:23:35 PM)

Well it will be difficoult as most of my Zeros are destroyed on the Airfiled... so tough luck[:@] I just can't play the way he dose with stacking most of my Air force in One or two Places... the game should prohibit that from happening like putting all 4E from the whole map in one place... or emptying most of your bases to stack you air force in one or two bases... grrrr and the thing that pisses me of is that my ground units are in singapore and when the bombard attack the do not damage the Airbase...



niceguy2005 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/9/2006 11:04:03 PM)

Prezemcio, it's just a little hard to understand how Japanese forces can have their backs to the wall in Feb 1942. I agree with the poster above. You HAVE to go after this airfield while all his planes are there. Historically the Japanese were always looking for a decisive battle. You have the makings of one at Sing. Bring in the KB if you have to and smash the air field. Once the AF is potholed his planes will be grounded and you can bring in your bombers to finish them off. You simply must adjust to what he is doing.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Frustration... can any one help... (2/9/2006 11:25:44 PM)



Do you mean to say that you have lost almost 200 Zero's? What is your Zero production rate? 104 amonth? 124? what? have you converted the Home defense claude squadrons? Have you used political points to transfer them to southeast command? Are you using Khota Baru?



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