RE: Coastal Defense Guns (Full Version)

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Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 4:55:52 AM)

And your opinion is that by devils plan of creators of the game Allied CD are not inflicting such damage on Japanese? Or you are made because both sides inflicts the same damage and you think that super-US should have more power in their guns?

I'm starting to understand your theories. Japan is overpowered, Elvis is alive, etc..




dereck -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 4:56:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos


quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck
The thing about the "US Revisionists" is we use historical books and facts for the majority of our statements while the "Jap Revisionists" can only be on something when they make their claims.

The thing about the "Jap Revisionists" is we use historical books and facts for the majority of our statements while the "Jap Revisionists" uses only Morrison.

quote:


In reading Morrison's History of United States Naval Operations in World War II there were PLENTY of examples in the Solomons of US destroyers and light cruisers taking an (and OUT) Jap coastal batteries and receiving very little damage, if any.

If Morrison write about destroyers attacking from short range heavy defended and well prepared to defence base, like Truk or Rabaul - he is definetly wrong. Nothing of that ever happened.

quote:


Japanese coast defense guns were called, by Morrison, "ineffective" throughout the war.


New game? Instead of Simon says, now we have SE Morrison says?


We "allied fan boys" don't need "revisionist history". We DID win.

And what is the problem with using History of United States Naval Operations in World War II as a source? Is it because it's not on the Japanese Fan Boy list of approved sources or what? Some of the sources cited by the Jap Fan Boys are certainly questionable in that WHAT documentation really exists to back up some of their claims since Japan was basically burnt to the ground? On the allied side there are reams and reams of documents to look at and which document and back up what has been written.

And you should take geography lessons sir. In my posts I specifically mentiond the Solomons. Truk is in the Caroline Islands and Rabaul is in New Britain in the Bismark Archipelago. Three different geographic areas.

Also please don't muddy the water by implying stuff I didn't. I stand by what I posted because I can back it up with the facts - in fact, in another post I DID put the quote from the book about the incident I cited. All we're getting from you seems to be rhetoric and insults.




dereck -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:01:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

And your opinion is that by devils plan of creators of the game Allied CD are not inflicting such damage on Japanese? Or you are made because both sides inflicts the same damage and you think that super-US should have more power in their guns?

I'm starting to understand your theories. Japan is overpowered, Elvis is alive, etc..


Please see post #59 in my reply to Ron. You're just trying to muddy the waters with rhetoric and implying stuff I never said or implied.





Ron Saueracker -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:02:30 AM)

quote:

I was spent a year in an artillery battalion and have practiced and seen artillery fire on moving targets. (battle of 73 easting GW1). Artillery can hit moving targets. It is a matter of volume of fire as much as it is accuracy. Bracket the target at the right range and bang away in rapid fire mode


"I was spent a year in an artillery battalion and have practiced and seen artillery fire on moving targets. (battle of 73 easting GW1). Artillery can hit moving targets. It is a matter of volume of fire as much as it is accuracy. Bracket the target at the right range and bang away in rapid fire mode"

Well, I spent 10 years at it and it is not easy to do even with a full stomach during a comfy excercise where the det commander ahead of you sneaks you the range to the static target. Can't imagine what it would be like vs a TF firing back at me with naval rifles!!!




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:04:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Well, my units were prepped to 45. Started them prepping on day 1 of the war. They had been at the base about 7 days when the attack happened.

I was spent a year in an artillery battalion and have practiced and seen artillery fire on moving targets. (battle of 73 easting GW1). Artillery can hit moving targets. It is a matter of volume of fire as much as it is accuracy. Bracket the target at the right range and bang away in rapid fire mode.

Maybe he had a super aggressive commander in the TF who decided to slug it out and complete his mission of bombarding the target regardless of the danger. Maybe he thought that "no cd gun can hurt me, I am in a CA). Guess he got proved wrong.[:-]

This works both ways, so I am not concerned with this.


Two wrongs don't make a right, Scott. I keep forgetting, this is merely a game, not an attempt at a simulation as proudly boasted on the advertisments.




Nomad -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:16:29 AM)

Ron you are not trying to force Fantasy Warfare in the Pacific to be a historically correct game, are you? [:D]

The [sm=party-smiley-012.gif][sm=party-smiley-012.gif][sm=party-smiley-012.gif] made me do it. [8D]




JD009 -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:47:15 AM)

Coastal guns are not really intended to sink every ship that comes within range. They are intended to encourage ships to stay away, or if the ships don't get the message they try to inflict enough damage to make them regret the decision to close. Without coastal guns what is to prevent the bombarding ships from sailing up and anchoring just outside of machine gun range?

There are a lot of factors influencing the results of encounters between warships and coastal guns. Are there some nice juicy landing craft to shoot at? Sinking the bombarding ships is not a clear-cut victory if the Marines safely land and run bayonets through the gun crews. If its night time, the bombarding ships are just passing by and not covering a landing, and you have no radar, are the gun crews really going to stick by their guns and die to a man? Or are they going to find some nice safe foxholes or bunkers to hide in until the ships decide to go away? Remember, ships gun crews kind of have to stick it out and keep shooting, while the coastal gun crews can take a wrong turn on the way back from the magazine and get lost until the shooting stops. Being a bombardment ship may not be so bad an experience if there is a big crowd of other things for the coastal guns to shoot at. If you are the only floating thing to be seen, the coastal guns may take some notice of you, they need target practice too.

I have not played enough to see all of the results mentioned above, but I would kind of expect to see quite a range of results based on my limited experience. Has anyone tried repeatedly playing some of these episodes over and over and recording the results to see the range of variation? Might be enlightening. Vary one condition, repeat some more times, compare to the results of the first runs.

Best to have some ammunition before you start shooting. And a little experimentation can provide a lot of of ammunition to "discussions" of balance and mechanics.

JD




2ndACR -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:48:23 AM)

Well, the CA that got shot to pieces was Canberra which only has a belt armor of 25 in Nik's mod.......not sure what the armor is in the stock version.

Well, there are lots of quirks in this game. I try to learn them and figure out work arounds and such. I try and use only BB's where I might encounter CD guns. I will use CA's and smaller when I know there is no real threat to me.

Same goes for the AA gap (yes, there is one)..........people learn the gap and exploit it. How many fly all their strike missions with LBA at 6,000 feet or lower? Alot, I have seen the AAR's. That is using the stock version. Nik has basically killed this in his mod. You will get shot to pieces at 6,000 feet. I am talking about city, ground, airfield strike missions here.

But yes, even the allies can pound me to pieces with CD guns if I use the wrong ships. My main purpose for this ambush was to try and strip his escorts and slow him down with system damage so my CV's could catch and kill the cripples at leisure.

Everyone here knows I play Japan exclusively. So call me a fan boy. Does not bother me, I play games all the way. I am looking forward to the day when the Allied player can go on the offensive and I can see if my defense plans work. Then it will be his turn to have the "uber CAP" over his CV's, unstoppable LBA using Corsairs which decimate even high experience pilots in the best planes Japan can field.





dereck -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:53:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Well, the CA that got shot to pieces was Canberra which only has a belt armor of 25 in Nik's mod.......not sure what the armor is in the stock version.

Well, there are lots of quirks in this game. I try to learn them and figure out work arounds and such. I try and use only BB's where I might encounter CD guns. I will use CA's and smaller when I know there is no real threat to me.

Same goes for the AA gap (yes, there is one)..........people learn the gap and exploit it. How many fly all their strike missions with LBA at 6,000 feet or lower? Alot, I have seen the AAR's. That is using the stock version. Nik has basically killed this in his mod. You will get shot to pieces at 6,000 feet. I am talking about city, ground, airfield strike missions here.
But yes, even the allies can pound me to pieces with CD guns if I use the wrong ships. My main purpose for this ambush was to try and strip his escorts and slow him down with system damage so my CV's could catch and kill the cripples at leisure.

Everyone here knows I play Japan exclusively. So call me a fan boy. Does not bother me, I play games all the way. I am looking forward to the day when the Allied player can go on the offensive and I can see if my defense plans work. Then it will be his turn to have the "uber CAP" over his CV's, unstoppable LBA using Corsairs which decimate even high experience pilots in the best planes Japan can field.




At the possibility of ruffling more feathers (as if I care at this point really), last night on the Military Channel was a feature about the B-29 bombers and one person interviewed was a B-29 bomber pilot who specifically stated that LeMay had them fly a mission (no idea if this was standard practice or not so I'm not stating one way or the other) at such an altitude that it was 1) too high for machine gun fire and 2) too low for AA fuses to set. So the AA gap DID exist and as combatants do during war it WAS exploited to the benefit of the bomber crews. So in effect, Nik's mod is NOT historical but since closing an historical AA gap benefits the receivers of the bombing ... (won't comment further)




treespider -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:02:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Well, the CA that got shot to pieces was Canberra which only has a belt armor of 25 in Nik's mod.......not sure what the armor is in the stock version.

Well, there are lots of quirks in this game. I try to learn them and figure out work arounds and such. I try and use only BB's where I might encounter CD guns. I will use CA's and smaller when I know there is no real threat to me.

Same goes for the AA gap (yes, there is one)..........people learn the gap and exploit it. How many fly all their strike missions with LBA at 6,000 feet or lower? Alot, I have seen the AAR's. That is using the stock version. Nik has basically killed this in his mod. You will get shot to pieces at 6,000 feet. I am talking about city, ground, airfield strike missions here.
But yes, even the allies can pound me to pieces with CD guns if I use the wrong ships. My main purpose for this ambush was to try and strip his escorts and slow him down with system damage so my CV's could catch and kill the cripples at leisure.

Everyone here knows I play Japan exclusively. So call me a fan boy. Does not bother me, I play games all the way. I am looking forward to the day when the Allied player can go on the offensive and I can see if my defense plans work. Then it will be his turn to have the "uber CAP" over his CV's, unstoppable LBA using Corsairs which decimate even high experience pilots in the best planes Japan can field.




At the possibility of ruffling more feathers (as if I care at this point really), last night on the Military Channel was a feature about the B-29 bombers and one person interviewed was a B-29 bomber pilot who specifically stated that LeMay had them fly a mission (no idea if this was standard practice or not so I'm not stating one way or the other) at such an altitude that it was 1) too high for machine gun fire and 2) too low for AA fuses to set. So the AA gap DID exist and as combatants do during war it WAS exploited to the benefit of the bomber crews. So in effect, Nik's mod is NOT historical but since closing an historical AA gap benefits the receivers of the bombing ... (won't comment further)





From : http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/b029-10.html

Concerned about the relative failure of the B-29 offensive to deal any crippling blows to Japan, General LeMay issued a new directive on February 19. General LeMay had analyzed the structure of the Japanese economy, which depended heavily on cottage industries housed in cities close to major industrial areas. By destroying these feeder industries, the flow of vital components to the central plants could be slowed, disorganizing production of weapons vital to Japan. He decided to do this by using incendiary bombs rather than purely high-explosive bombs, which would, it was hoped, cause general conflagrations in large cities like Tokyo or Nagoya, spreading to some of the priority targets.

In addition, LeMay had concluded that the effects of the jet stream, cloud cover, and high operating altitudes were to blame for the failure of the B-29 raids to do any significant damage to the Japanese war industry. The initial raids against Japan had taken place at high-altitudes in order to stay above anti-aircraft fire and the effective altitude of defending fighters. LeMay suggested that high-altitude, daylight attacks be phased out and replaced by low-altitude, high-intensity incendiary raids at nighttime. The aircraft would attack individually, which meant that no assembly over the base at the start of the mission or along the way would be needed. Consequently, aircraft could go directly from the base to the target and return, maximizing the bomb load and saving substantially on fuel. He ordered that all the B-29s be stripped of their General Electric defensive gun systems, leaving only the tail gun. The weight of extra crew members, armament, and ammunition would go into bombs, each B-29 being loaded down with six to eight tons of M69 incendiary bombs. These bombs would be dropped from altitudes of only 5 to 6 thousand feet. This strategy would enable the B-29s to escape the effects of the jet stream and would get the bombers below most of the cloud cover. In addition, the B-29s would no longer have to struggle up to 30,000 feet and this would save on fuel and on wear and tear to the engines. It was believed that Japanese night fighter forces were relatively weak, but flak losses were expected to be substantial.

The first raid to use these new techniques was on the night of March 9/10 against Tokyo. Another wing -- the 314th Bombardment Wing (19th, 29th, 39th, and 330th BG) commanded by Brig. Gen. Thomas S. Power -- had arrived in the Marianas and was stationed at North Field on Guam. A total of 302 B-29s participated in the raid, with 279 arriving over the target. The raid was led by special pathfinder crews who marked central aiming points. It lasted for two hours. The raid was a success beyond General LeMay's wildest expectations. The individual fires caused by the bombs joined to create a general conflagration known as a firestorm. When it was over, sixteen square miles of the center of Tokyo had gone up in flames and nearly 84,000 people had been killed. Fourteen B-29s were lost. The B-29 was finally beginning to have an effect.

On the night of March 11/12, the B-29s were in action again, this time against the city of Nagoya. This time, the scattered fires did not join to create a general firestorm, and only two square miles of the city were destroyed. On the night of March 13/14, eight square miles of Osaka went up in flames. On March 16/17, three square miles of Kobe were destroyed, and on March 19/20 in a return visit to Nagoya, three more square miles were destroyed. This destructive week had killed over 120,000 Japanese civilians at the cost of only 20 B-29s lost. The strategic bombing campaign had at last been justified.






Ron Saueracker -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:05:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck


quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Well, the CA that got shot to pieces was Canberra which only has a belt armor of 25 in Nik's mod.......not sure what the armor is in the stock version.

Well, there are lots of quirks in this game. I try to learn them and figure out work arounds and such. I try and use only BB's where I might encounter CD guns. I will use CA's and smaller when I know there is no real threat to me.

Same goes for the AA gap (yes, there is one)..........people learn the gap and exploit it. How many fly all their strike missions with LBA at 6,000 feet or lower? Alot, I have seen the AAR's. That is using the stock version. Nik has basically killed this in his mod. You will get shot to pieces at 6,000 feet. I am talking about city, ground, airfield strike missions here.
But yes, even the allies can pound me to pieces with CD guns if I use the wrong ships. My main purpose for this ambush was to try and strip his escorts and slow him down with system damage so my CV's could catch and kill the cripples at leisure.

Everyone here knows I play Japan exclusively. So call me a fan boy. Does not bother me, I play games all the way. I am looking forward to the day when the Allied player can go on the offensive and I can see if my defense plans work. Then it will be his turn to have the "uber CAP" over his CV's, unstoppable LBA using Corsairs which decimate even high experience pilots in the best planes Japan can field.




At the possibility of ruffling more feathers (as if I care at this point really), last night on the Military Channel was a feature about the B-29 bombers and one person interviewed was a B-29 bomber pilot who specifically stated that LeMay had them fly a mission (no idea if this was standard practice or not so I'm not stating one way or the other) at such an altitude that it was 1) too high for machine gun fire and 2) too low for AA fuses to set. So the AA gap DID exist and as combatants do during war it WAS exploited to the benefit of the bomber crews. So in effect, Nik's mod is NOT historical but since closing an historical AA gap benefits the receivers of the bombing ... (won't comment further)



I don't think the AA is any more effed up than anything else to warrant such a major editor hack job. I have been flying at 6000 feet to vs Japanese targets to check this out and I get hit by lighter guns rather than heavy. The fact that they are not 40mm helps but just because Japan did not field decent close and medium range automatics does not mean they should be fabricated for the game. Try flying against an allied base at 6000 feet and see what happens. The only GAP is perhaps an historical one, but can't have that in WITP now can we.




treespider -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:06:34 AM)

continuing from the same site...

By March 20, XXI Bombardment Command had run out of incendiaries, forcing a momentary pause. While waiting for new incendiary stocks, LeMay devoted his B-29s to flying tactical missions over the island of Kyushu in support of the invasion of Okinawa. Airfields and support facilities were primary targets. These raids lasted until early May.

In April of 1945, General LeMay gave new orders for more incendiary raids. This time, aircraft engine factories at Musashi and Nagoya were to be hit, but urban areas in Tokyo, Nagoya, Osaka, Kawasaki, Kobe, and Yokohama were also to be attacked. On April 7, 153 B-29s struck the aircraft engine complex at Nagoya, destroying about 90 percent of that facility. Five days later, 93 B-29s destroyed the Nakajima factory at Musashi. The Japanese aircraft engine industry essentially ceased to exist after this time.

On April 13, 327 B-29s burned out eleven more square miles of Tokyo. Seven more B-29s were lost.

In mid-April, the XXI BC received the 58th Bombardment Wing, which had been redeployed from the now-defunct XX BC in the CBI theatre to West Field on Tinian.

On May 14, 472 B-29s attacked the area in and around the Mitsubishi engine factory at Nagoya. Two nights later, another visit to Nagoya devastated another four square miles of that city. On May 23 and May 25, Tokyo was hit again. Although these two Tokyo raids had cost 43 B-29s, over 50 percent of the city had now been destroyed.

Alarmed at the increasing B-29 losses, a change of tactics was ordered. In an attempt to confuse the enemy defenses and to lure Japanese fighters into an air battle in which many of them would be destroyed, high-altitude daylight attacks were temporarily resumed. On May 29, 454 B-29s appeared over Yokohama, but this time they were escorted by P-51 Mustangs from Iwo Jima. In the resulting dogfight, 26 Japanese fighters were destroyed against the loss of four B-29s and three P-51s. Thereafter, the Japanese hoarded their surviving fighters for a last-ditch effort against the inevitable invasion force, and the air defense of cities became a lesser priority. By June of 1945, Japanese interceptors were seen much less frequently and the B-29s had free reign over all Japanese airspace.





treespider -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:17:27 AM)

[sm=00000613.gif][sm=party-smiley-012.gif][sm=00000436.gif]




1275psi -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:19:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

On the other hand, just plain field artillery wasn't much use for this kind of duty. The guns could shoot out to sea, but without a naval type fire control they couldn't track and engage targets unless they could see them over "open sights".


Boy is this wrong. I have faced 122, 130 and 150 army type land guns rolling around on the decks of junks as well as fired from shore positions. Used ashore they have tricks NO ship can use (aiming stakes for example). And HMAS Hobart was a victim of such guns using passive signal triangulation. It is an ancient principle that "no sailor but a fool" takes a ship in range of shore guns. We sometimes did it - but it was dangerous. [One thing we did was drill what to do if a ship lost steering or propulsion. The following ship would attempt to pass a tow line when the bow passed the stern of the disabled ship. The entire process had to be completed - and the speeds PERFECTLY matched - when the hauser ran out of distance. This is spooky stuff - and just practice is dangerous - never mind trying to do it under fire.]


Well el cid again, obviously you survived your ordeal of fire by these awsome shore batteries - so they must not have been that effective after all eh?

I'll take Morison's word for shore batteries - thank you very much.


OH SO GLAD THAT YOU SO BRAVELY FACED THEM DEMOSTHENES
HMAS Hobart was taken under fire off the vietnam coast from "common artillery"
The fire was TERRIFYINGLY CLOSE -and it was a miricle she was not hit
a quick look at her veterens web site will show the photos -she often dissapears in the splashes
Its a poor pass when somebody who obviously was there has their opinion disregarded as inaccurate.

When a combat veteran says -it was like this -that is always good enough for me.
Hobart bugged out. That seems pretty effective to me.




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:28:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

On the other hand, just plain field artillery wasn't much use for this kind of duty. The guns could shoot out to sea, but without a naval type fire control they couldn't track and engage targets unless they could see them over "open sights".


Boy is this wrong. I have faced 122, 130 and 150 army type land guns rolling around on the decks of junks as well as fired from shore positions. Used ashore they have tricks NO ship can use (aiming stakes for example). And HMAS Hobart was a victim of such guns using passive signal triangulation. It is an ancient principle that "no sailor but a fool" takes a ship in range of shore guns. We sometimes did it - but it was dangerous. [One thing we did was drill what to do if a ship lost steering or propulsion. The following ship would attempt to pass a tow line when the bow passed the stern of the disabled ship. The entire process had to be completed - and the speeds PERFECTLY matched - when the hauser ran out of distance. This is spooky stuff - and just practice is dangerous - never mind trying to do it under fire.]


Well el cid again, obviously you survived your ordeal of fire by these awsome shore batteries - so they must not have been that effective after all eh?

I'll take Morison's word for shore batteries - thank you very much.


OH SO GLAD THAT YOU SO BRAVELY FACED THEM DEMOSTHENES
HMAS Hobart was taken under fire off the vietnam coast from "common artillery"
The fire was TERRIFYINGLY CLOSE -and it was a miricle she was not hit
a quick look at her veterens web site will show the photos -she often dissapears in the splashes
Its a poor pass when somebody who obviously was there has their opinion disregarded as inaccurate.

When a combat veteran says -it was like this -that is always good enough for me.
Hobart bugged out. That seems pretty effective to me.



But in WITP an entire TF gets whacked with a CA shot to pieces. Hobart's case is about the most serious historical case of non CD arty fire I've heard of but it pales in comparison to the repeated examples of entire TFs getting shot up in the game, yet this is OK.




el cid again -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:53:37 AM)

quote:

We "allied fan boys" don't need "revisionist history". We DID win.


We didn't tell the truth about how we won though. Sometimes that was for sound reasons - we didn't want the Russians to know about how we got the German subs (they figured it out anyway). [Radio intercept].
Sometimes it was politically unpopular. [We didn't explain that we wanted BW stuff and let Japanese military scientists off the hook to get it - and lied when the Russians put some on trial - calling it a "show trial" when we knew it was true. We didn't like to admit the firebombing of Tokyo killed more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined - by a wide margin - so we just make up statistics like 40,000 and 80,000.] Sometimes it was assumptions. [No midgets scored at Pearl Harbor. But one did.] We also don't talk about giving the Navy Cross to a sub commander who did things we executed IJN sub skippers for doing. Or how our illustrious Australian and British Allies wiped out Japanese units to the man. Or how we adopted a no prisoners policy in Burma. Many books you can find on Japanese atrocities - but not ours. Note, however, the tribunals were NOT given jurisdiction over ALLIED war crimes. We tell a revised version of the story. No movies about the Japanese air strikes from Rabaul - made with improvised aircraft.





dereck -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 7:25:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

We "allied fan boys" don't need "revisionist history". We DID win.


We didn't tell the truth about how we won though. Sometimes that was for sound reasons - we didn't want the Russians to know about how we got the German subs (they figured it out anyway). [Radio intercept].
Sometimes it was politically unpopular. [We didn't explain that we wanted BW stuff and let Japanese military scientists off the hook to get it - and lied when the Russians put some on trial - calling it a "show trial" when we knew it was true. We didn't like to admit the firebombing of Tokyo killed more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined - by a wide margin - so we just make up statistics like 40,000 and 80,000.] Sometimes it was assumptions. [No midgets scored at Pearl Harbor. But one did.] We also don't talk about giving the Navy Cross to a sub commander who did things we executed IJN sub skippers for doing. Or how our illustrious Australian and British Allies wiped out Japanese units to the man. Or how we adopted a no prisoners policy in Burma. Many books you can find on Japanese atrocities - but not ours. Note, however, the tribunals were NOT given jurisdiction over ALLIED war crimes. We tell a revised version of the story. No movies about the Japanese air strikes from Rabaul - made with improvised aircraft.




If we followed YOUR version of history the US wouldn't have been able to find it's butt with both hands. The fact is we "Allied" fan boys back up what we say with documented facts and most of what we get back is rhetoric, muddy water or personal attacks. That's been the standard practice on this forum for all the time I've been on it whenever someone disagrees with your Japanese-biased revisionist history and speak up.

*waits for the usual multiple back to back refutation posts from the same person*




Mynok -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 7:57:01 AM)


Take the Japanese version and the Allied version, then find something rational somewhere in the middle and one will be much closer to the truth. War is propaganda. Neither side's official records should be believed.




bradfordkay -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 8:30:38 AM)

I shouldn't do this, but I can't resist...

"I was spent a year in an artillery battalion and have practiced and seen artillery fire on moving targets. (battle of 73 easting GW1). Artillery can hit moving targets. It is a matter of volume of fire as much as it is accuracy. Bracket the target at the right range and bang away in rapid fire mode"

Ron replied:
Well, I spent 10 years at it and it is not easy to do even with a full stomach during a comfy excercise where the det commander ahead of you sneaks you the range to the static target. Can't imagine what it would be like vs a TF firing back at me with naval rifles!!!


Now Ron, I recall watching this last summer a History Channel show where a group of Civil War artillery enthusiasts outshot a modern Canadian army artillery crew...maybe the quality of the gunners has a little to do with it! [:'(]








Sorry, that was cruel, but I used to work on a couple of 12lb Napoleon gun crews for the Park Service, so I was very interested in that show... all in fun, eh?




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 8:33:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I shouldn't do this, but I can't resist...

"I was spent a year in an artillery battalion and have practiced and seen artillery fire on moving targets. (battle of 73 easting GW1). Artillery can hit moving targets. It is a matter of volume of fire as much as it is accuracy. Bracket the target at the right range and bang away in rapid fire mode"

Ron replied:
Well, I spent 10 years at it and it is not easy to do even with a full stomach during a comfy excercise where the det commander ahead of you sneaks you the range to the static target. Can't imagine what it would be like vs a TF firing back at me with naval rifles!!!


Now Ron, I recall watching this last summer a History Channel show where a group of Civil War artillery enthusiasts outshot a modern Canadian army artillery crew...maybe the quality of the gunners has a little to do with it! [:'(]








Sorry, that was cruel, but I used to work on a couple of 12lb Napoleon gun crews for the Park Service, so I was very interested in that show... all in fun, eh?


[:D]Well, using the old 105 six rounds a minute was about the max on the same bearing and elevation...could go a little faster but hangfires become an issue.




bradfordkay -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 8:39:03 AM)

well, better a hangfire in a 105 than a premature cookoff in a Napoleon...[;)]




castor troy -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 12:13:37 PM)

Allied or Japanese, revisionist or not (donīt you have enough of that anytime soon?? [8|])I want to see a book (Morrison or any other book) where a TF conisted of some CA and DDs attacked and duelled with around 100 5,5" and 4,7" guns and didnīt take damage. You probably canīt come up with side xy paragraph ab says.... because that never happened. Come on! Forget to bring up historical facts to say this or that is wrong. Use your BRAIN! Your brain will tell you that 100 guns shooting at some ships may cause damage. Is this historical? No! Would it be realistical? No, to place that many guns! Would the damage be realistical? Yes, if so many guns were in place.

This revisionist sh.. is just so lame... If Iīm playing Allied and place 5 CD units at Lunga after taking it and the Japs come in to bombard me with such a TF they get creamed. Again 100 CD guns and a damaged TF. So now come up with Morrison blah blah blah.

It has been said often enough: unhistorical play = unhistorical results. Goes for air, sea and ground combat....

And the "we did win argument" just doesnīt count. Do you think the Afghani were better equipped than the Soviets. Book xy says...




Charles2222 -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 12:37:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

He faced roughly 100 coastal defense guns and they knew he was coming. Spotted the previous day by air recon about 3 hexes out.


100 guns........3.8 shots per gun over a 12 hour period? Seems a little low to me .... [:D]

Seriously, perhaps it is the to-hit percentage that is too high, because that number of shots doesn't seem unreasonable for the time period in question.



So the ships would stay within CD range that long? Seems for the ones that survived, that they would change their position within the first hour after seeing that response.

Pardon me for a moment, but i can't help but notice what might just be a coincidence. How did you come up with 3.8 hits? Multiply that by hundred, roughly, and you come up with that 388 figure I saw earlier. Only problem is, that's 388 GUNS, not hits. Those 388 guns only hit 258 times.




frnfn1 -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 2:48:42 PM)

This does say something for the "historical accuracy" of the game.

On 7/22/44 the Colorado was hit 22 times by 3 150mm guns while bombarding Tinian. Colorado suffered 43 fatalities and was under repair at PH until November, 1944.




Demosthenes -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 4:36:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

OH SO GLAD THAT YOU SO BRAVELY FACED THEM DEMOSTHENES



Fine with me 1275psi.

I was in the Army as an 11B10 myself. I respect everyone who does their service to their country. I have had my father, uncles, and more distant relatives serve in many wars - and several family memebers were killed in those wars.

I respect El Cids' service to his country - but that does not require me to take his military opinions as gospel. He has posted many things of late that I find outrageous. He has every right in the world to say them, believe them, and post them - and I wouldn't have it any other way.

But that does not mean I can't call him on his opinions either.

Demosthenes




Mynok -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 5:42:16 PM)


quote:

Pardon me for a moment, but i can't help but notice what might just be a coincidence. How did you come up with 3.8 hits? Multiply that by hundred, roughly, and you come up with that 388 figure I saw earlier. Only problem is, that's 388 GUNS, not hits. Those 388 guns only hit 258 times.


388 shots. There were only 100 guns.




Sardaukar -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:13:15 PM)

Some battles between Soviet Navy and Finnish coastal fortresses during Winter War can be found here:

Finnish Navy in Winter War

Soviet Baltic Navy never tried to engage 305 mm units protecting Helsinki, though.




castor troy -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 6:46:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: frnfn1

This does say something for the "historical accuracy" of the game.

On 7/22/44 the Colorado was hit 22 times by 3 150mm guns while bombarding Tinian. Colorado suffered 43 fatalities and was under repair at PH until November, 1944.



So if thatīs true thatīs more than effective to me. Would it been US guns and a Jap BB it would have been also effective to me (before some revisionist or fanboy thing comes up again [8|]).

Only 3 guns and 22 hits? So what when there were 100 guns like in the example of the thread starter. Make them 100 neutral guns and a neutral BB please. I think the biggest problem of the game is that perhaps all guns at a base get a shot at the ships. But Iīm not sure about that. If it would have been 50 guns they would have been able to also get a good number of shots out.




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 8:14:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: frnfn1

This does say something for the "historical accuracy" of the game.

On 7/22/44 the Colorado was hit 22 times by 3 150mm guns while bombarding Tinian. Colorado suffered 43 fatalities and was under repair at PH until November, 1944.


How many times were all the other ships in the same TF as Colorado hit? See where we are going? This, like many other combat models, is like a bad Kung Fu movie, where the defender gets to fight each assailant one at a time, so basically can get as many punches and kicks in as the entire horde of attackers.




Mynok -> RE: Coastal Defense Guns (2/16/2006 8:40:19 PM)


There are definitely areas where that is a problem, but I'm not at all sure this is one of them. We are talking about a 12 hour period in which ships are entering and leaving the range of 100 undisrupted CD guns. And you are saying that you don't think each gun could have gotten off 3.8 shots within that time frame? [&:]

Now the to-hit numbers might be worth discussing, but I'm not seeing excessiveness in the shot count at all.




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