March Update (Full Version)

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StCyr -> March Update (3/3/2006 3:36:46 AM)

[:)]Lets assume Marshall still "keeps up up the good work [:)][&o][&o]" (at all three of his jobs), does a lot of testing and because he just said so one moth ago there is really no reason for any further update. The game will be done when its done, so donīt show up in April looking for an update.



Titi -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 6:36:25 AM)

To stay in the same mood. [;)]

Did you think that this site cost a lot to maintain? [&:] A lot more each month!!! [:-] That it will be the consumer at the end that will pay the cost.[8|] And maybe it will be a specific cost for some specific buyer.[sm=terms.gif]

If you want an advice : register again when (general date here, nothing specific[:D]) you will digital download the game if you ever want to play the game. I think Marshall [sm=00000643.gif] is maybe taking some more time to program a surprise to a registered StCyr [sm=sterb011.gif].


PS Did i said i love smiley [sm=00000436.gif]



gazfun -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 9:38:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Titi

To stay in the same mood. [;)]

Did you think that this site cost a lot to maintain? [&:] A lot more each month!!! [:-] That it will be the consumer at the end that will pay the cost.[8|] And maybe it will be a specific cost for some specific buyer.[sm=terms.gif]

If you want an advice : register again when (general date here, nothing specific[:D]) you will digital download the game if you ever want to play the game. I think Marshall [sm=00000643.gif] is maybe taking some more time to program a surprise to a registered StCyr [sm=sterb011.gif].


PS Did i said i love smiley [sm=00000436.gif]

[&:] All I can say is, that is must be getting cold in Montreal [sm=00000289.gif]



timewalker03 -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 2:44:19 PM)

With all the games Matrix is currently releasing, I don't see much in the future of this game. I don't think Matrix is very dedicated to this one. If they were they would have more than 1 person working on the code, and many many playtest groups going right now. Also if they are mostly worried about the play by email part of the game, then its going to be half-assed. The only true way to play the game is to pick chits and roll dice, smoke two packs of cigs during each diplomacy phase, and sweat over every build each economic interphase.

I hope Matrix isn't blowing smoke about this game, but it seems they have invested only a small amount into it and may fold the project before its completion. Also I would like to teach my soon to be 11 year old son how to play before he leaves home to attend college. I'm guessing college will be here before the game. Well sorry for the negative, but I don't see much chance of release even this year and as slow as they are going next year either. I hope to see it soon.

One of the things to think about is that some of the most successful live action games out today release 70 to 80% completed projects and complete them through patches. Release the original game then add all the alternate rules from EIH and the General's through future patches. Please do something with this game soon. Either release it or scrap it.



Hanal -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 5:19:38 PM)

I do not think it is fair to make such judgments...sure it is taking awhile for the game to be released, but who really cares? Afterall, we aren't talking about a cure for cancer here....When it does come out, all of these negative posts will be forgotten and the game will be enjoyed...



Hard Sarge -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 6:12:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timewalker03

With all the games Matrix is currently releasing, I don't see much in the future of this game. I don't think Matrix is very dedicated to this one. If they were they would have more than 1 person working on the code, and many many playtest groups going right now. Also if they are mostly worried about the play by email part of the game, then its going to be half-assed. The only true way to play the game is to pick chits and roll dice, smoke two packs of cigs during each diplomacy phase, and sweat over every build each economic interphase.

I hope Matrix isn't blowing smoke about this game, but it seems they have invested only a small amount into it and may fold the project before its completion. Also I would like to teach my soon to be 11 year old son how to play before he leaves home to attend college. I'm guessing college will be here before the game. Well sorry for the negative, but I don't see much chance of release even this year and as slow as they are going next year either. I hope to see it soon.

One of the things to think about is that some of the most successful live action games out today release 70 to 80% completed projects and complete them through patches. Release the original game then add all the alternate rules from EIH and the General's through future patches. Please do something with this game soon. Either release it or scrap it.


Hi Time
well, I don't normally get into posts like this one, I normally say the wrong thing, so I stay away

but...

do you know anything about what you are talking about ?

do you know how many beta testers are working on the project ?
do you know how many beta verisons for the game have been released this year ?
do you know what Matrix's plans are ?
do you know what Matrix is thinking ?
do you know this is not a normal game, that it has to follow set rules ?
do you know if this game were to be released at 70% done, if it would even work ?

come on back in another month, maybe they will have a surprise for you then, maybe not, but you can always hope

[:-]




YohanTM2 -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 6:13:53 PM)

People do care JP, and part of any successful company is the ability to please their customers. What is now a massive delay in the release of this game impacts the brand promise for Matrix as an organization.

I must agree with the above post that having one part time developer is not working. Look at the effort being put into WiF by comparison. Steve is at 60-70 hours a week and he has support. Lots of updates, replies to emails and asks for feedback. If this can happen on WiF it can happen here.

Companies that continually fail on their commitment to customers fail.



Hard Sarge -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 6:51:03 PM)

where have they failed ?

one thing I think Matrix may do wrong, is bring games into open forums much too early, players see there is a fourm for the game, they think it must be close to being done, a lot of times the project is just starting

but they trying to let the players know what is going on




SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 6:59:20 PM)

To whom it may concern - you know who you are:

I have been lurking on this forum for a long time.

The only commitment that Matrix made to anyone was that they are working on this game.

No one (to my knowledge) has given matrix money and been denied this product.

The only thing they have done is to keep us informed about the status of an ongoing product. In the old days, big companies like IBM never told anyone anything until a product was finished. Then no one could give input into what was needed or how it should work.

This company has been accepting input and apparently found some major things that needed fixing. They are fixing it.

[:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop villifying them for opening the creation process to the people who have the experience to know what is right and wrong about EIA.

[:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

The game will come out when the game comes out.

Because of their openness, I am sure it will be a better game. So what if it is a little slower. So what if we don't get it when we want it. Life is like that sometimes.

As you get older (and a little more mature, I might add), you will find that the good things in life are worth waiting for. Instant gratification is usually over instantly too.

If I may be so bold, Go play your nintendo and quit yer bitchin'

[:-]



Sonny -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 8:50:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

where have they failed ?

one thing I think Matrix may do wrong, is bring games into open forums much too early, players see there is a fourm for the game, they think it must be close to being done, a lot of times the project is just starting

but they trying to let the players know what is going on




Exactly - way too much hype way too early. Plus demoing it at Origins 2004 kinda led us to believe the game was just around the corner.

Matrix is not alone in this. All of the game companies do the same thing - make some artwork and announce the game at least a year in advance. Then when it comes down to the crunch they are either late or release a poor product. I really had hoped Matrix was better than that but I guess not.

I don't blame Marshall (or David Winter, developer of Maximum Football which was supposed to be out by the 2005 Super Bowl and is now scheduled for release at any moment today). The big problem is the implied promises made by Matrix (and other game publishers). If they take on a title and are not sure what the status is then maybe they should hold off on all the big announcements until they have a good feel for what is yet left to do on the game. Due diligence is what is needed.

Somewhere along the line some advertising guy got the idea that "if a game sells X amount when we announce it 6 months in advance of release then it should sell 2X as much if we announce it a year in advance." Even then it would not be so bad if they actually did put out a good product when the announced release date arrived instead of slipping and slipping and slipping the date.

But they can get away with it so they think it is the right thing to do and continue to do it.[:(]



Hanal -> RE: March Update (3/3/2006 11:23:01 PM)

quote:

Matrix is not alone in this. All of the game companies do the same thing - make some artwork and announce the game at least a year in advance. Then when it comes down to the crunch they are either late or release a poor product. I really had hoped Matrix was better than that but I guess not.


Actually HPS is an exception to your rule.....they keep their game developments under wraps and do not show their hand until release time....



timewalker03 -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 4:41:32 AM)

I think its funny how much people defend Matrix and this project. I first heard about it in february of 2002. I searched it out and found that Matrix Games was the company that was making it. I then found that they had a forum for the game so that people could put input in on the game. I signed up for the forum in june 2003. It is now March 2006. From 2002 to 2006 we are at 4 years since I heard about this game going into production.

4 years is a long time to know about something. Sarge you can try to make a point about what anyone knows about this game. I do know that they have one part time programmer working on this game. They have at least one play test group of I would guess seven players since the game has 7 major countries. The one thing I don't know about if they pay the playtesters or not. If they don't and I suspect they don't, I then wonder why they don't have ten playtest groups or get everyone who is on these forums to help work on it. The more the merrier would fit well with this. I would do it for free I know that.

The number one thing that bothers me is that they have the Lead/Sole programmer working on other projects which tells me the dedication from Matrix really isn't there. I also realize that this game isn't gonna be a game that everyone buys. It's going to be a game that those who loved playing FtF and God forbid by email will buy and play as much as possible. Understand Sarge that 3 years of development is a long long time in todays day and age, and we live in an age where we could download patches for the "extras". All I ask for is the basic game with the original optional rules that came with the game. I could care less about looks.

The AI is the most improtant part of this game. If they had more than a part-time programmer they could have completed the game by now. 2 programmers are better than 1 part-time programmer. 3 are better than 2. etc. Thats would show some form of dedication. A dedication to us, consumer and the fan of the game. Look at something else. The only link we had to Matrix stopped talking to us except to comment on a post or two. Also to those who speak of patience and throw nintendo comments out may not realize that time doesn't stop. We all get older. I'm a realist. I don't know what tommorrow brings, so I would like to either have the game sooner than later or just not have to think about it any more.

Also, I believe if more of us would demand something from Matrix, they would react. Of course some people look at this blindly and that is why the game is now 3+ years in development. I'm sure that we will hear the game will be released by christmas. Which christmas Who knows. If it is this one then I'll be the first in line to apologize to Marshall and all of you, then the first in line to buy the game either via D/L or at the nearest store. I hope we all get to play soon but we'll have to wait and see.



Monadman -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 6:53:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: timewalker03

I think its funny how much people defend Matrix and this project. I first heard about it in february of 2002. I searched it out and found that Matrix Games was the company that was making it. I then found that they had a forum for the game so that people could put input in on the game. I signed up for the forum in june 2003. It is now March 2006. From 2002 to 2006 we are at 4 years since I heard about this game going into production.

4 years is a long time to know about something. Sarge you can try to make a point about what anyone knows about this game. I do know that they have one part time programmer working on this game. They have at least one play test group of I would guess seven players since the game has 7 major countries. The one thing I don't know about if they pay the playtesters or not. If they don't and I suspect they don't, I then wonder why they don't have ten playtest groups or get everyone who is on these forums to help work on it. The more the merrier would fit well with this. I would do it for free I know that.

The number one thing that bothers me is that they have the Lead/Sole programmer working on other projects which tells me the dedication from Matrix really isn't there. I also realize that this game isn't gonna be a game that everyone buys. It's going to be a game that those who loved playing FtF and God forbid by email will buy and play as much as possible. Understand Sarge that 3 years of development is a long long time in todays day and age, and we live in an age where we could download patches for the "extras". All I ask for is the basic game with the original optional rules that came with the game. I could care less about looks.

The AI is the most improtant part of this game. If they had more than a part-time programmer they could have completed the game by now. 2 programmers are better than 1 part-time programmer. 3 are better than 2. etc. Thats would show some form of dedication. A dedication to us, consumer and the fan of the game. Look at something else. The only link we had to Matrix stopped talking to us except to comment on a post or two. Also to those who speak of patience and throw nintendo comments out may not realize that time doesn't stop. We all get older. I'm a realist. I don't know what tommorrow brings, so I would like to either have the game sooner than later or just not have to think about it any more.

Also, I believe if more of us would demand something from Matrix, they would react. Of course some people look at this blindly and that is why the game is now 3+ years in development. I'm sure that we will hear the game will be released by christmas. Which christmas Who knows. If it is this one then I'll be the first in line to apologize to Marshall and all of you, then the first in line to buy the game either via D/L or at the nearest store. I hope we all get to play soon but we'll have to wait and see.


Very funny Marshall.



Marshall Ellis -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 2:59:50 PM)

Timewalker03:

I hear ya and understand your frustration.
If there is one thing we could have done a little differently, I think it would be to keep the lid on things until they're closer to done. I would love to not say anything until testing begins. Anticipation only last for so long until it turns into frustration then morphs into dispair! I know how a lot of you guys feel BUT this is still fun to me and I'm enjoying every line of code and every beta release!

I'll do the forums and info releases differently next time! You won't hear much until I've got something GOOD to say...

Thank you



Hard Sarge -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 3:39:41 PM)

Thanks for the update Marshall

now get back into the box and get back to work, the bad weather is not going to hold for long

I was doing so well too

[:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-][:-]

[&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][&o]



YohanTM2 -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 5:12:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Timewalker03:

I hear ya and understand your frustration.
If there is one thing we could have done a little differently, I think it would be to keep the lid on things until they're closer to done. I would love to not say anything until testing begins. Anticipation only last for so long until it turns into frustration then morphs into dispair! I know how a lot of you guys feel BUT this is still fun to me and I'm enjoying every line of code and every beta release!

I'll do the forums and info releases differently next time! You won't hear much until I've got something GOOD to say...

Thank you



This pretty much sums up my issue when you juxtapose the support/attention to EiA versus WiF as just one example.



kc_chiefs -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 8:58:04 PM)

BINGO!

Big problem I believe. It taxes the staff in having to reply to things.

Matrix would do better to put up a forum for the game about one month before it releases. Get a group of gamers in a review pool for advice during development of the game and let the rest of us wait.

Too much pre-hype of a game kills the enthusiasm for it.

Does anyone remember Talonsoft advertising their Ironclads game? Man, they had me interested for a long time on that one. Then it never came out. I gave up on Talonsoft after they started doing their oddball games.

I am glad to see Matrix picking up the older Talonsoft titles.

For new titles - mums the word is the best policy. This is not Harry Potter ...



kc_chiefs -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 9:00:09 PM)

Quoting Hard Sarge:

where have they failed ?

one thing I think Matrix may do wrong, is bring games into open forums much too early, players see there is a fourm for the game, they think it must be close to being done, a lot of times the project is just starting

but they trying to let the players know what is going on


quote:

ORIGINAL: kc_chiefs

BINGO!

Big problem I believe. It taxes the staff in having to reply to things.

Matrix would do better to put up a forum for the game about one month before it releases. Get a group of gamers in a review pool for advice during development of the game and let the rest of us wait.

Too much pre-hype of a game kills the enthusiasm for it.

Does anyone remember Talonsoft advertising their Ironclads game? Man, they had me interested for a long time on that one. Then it never came out. I gave up on Talonsoft after they started doing their oddball games.

I am glad to see Matrix picking up the older Talonsoft titles.

For new titles - mums the word is the best policy. This is not Harry Potter ...
quote:

where have they failed ?

one thing I think Matrix may do wrong, is bring games into open forums much too early, players see there is a fourm for the game, they think it must be close to being done, a lot of times the project is just starting

but they trying to let the players know what is going on



gazfun -> RE: March Update (3/4/2006 10:55:25 PM)

Does everyone feel beter now.! [:)] Unfortunatley all this drum beating wont get the game out any faster.
And boy I think that some guys in the previous posts must be in to religion or something, or maybe in politics they way they have made certain assumptions.
Keep up the good work Marshall



DodgyDave -> RE: March Update (3/5/2006 1:17:59 AM)

Marshall Ellis, i saw a list of stuff that will not make it into the EIA/EIH game, do you think they will add this in patch or as expansion at some point, because most of those things left out, is stuff i love in the game as well?



Ivan58 -> RE: March Update (3/6/2006 11:08:04 AM)

Well, at least beating the drum makes Matrix realise that a whole bunch of guys IS really waiting for this game.

The story is even a lot older, because before Matrix took over, another company (I forgot the name) had already half developed it, until they were forced to stop for legal reasons (something about copyright matters). So this has been going on for more than 4 years now...

By the way the same goes for Black Powder Wars where the concept is very promising, but progress very slow. BPW could be the successor of Talonsoft games, but more versatile and encompassing. It would be very complementary to EiA.

Hope I live to see it. [:(]



Ursa MAior -> RE: March Update (3/6/2006 11:22:55 AM)

Yeah I also recall reading about cEiA under development in 2000.
Thanks Marshall. Keep up the good work, and dont let yourself rushed! Even by us! [:D]




StCyr -> RE: March Update (3/6/2006 8:56:18 PM)


We may still hope for a good game, but in my point of view time is an important factor in many ascpects of life, and business world is no exception. So when you start a project and it is late several more times than its development should take, I wonder how to call this process a "good work".

Marshall had a timetable for this job, he changed it many times and in the result not only by month but by several years. You got this ?
Well, of course in the end he says he would be lucky not to speak about his plan so that nobody would see how much he failed.
gazfun says to mention this wonīt get the game out any faster. But I think it might help to be somewhat honest at this point, to speak out that there must be something terrible wrong within the last few years. Does anybody think Matrix started this projekt like "Marshall, ur the men, go for it and donīt worry if the game isnīt finised in 2003, 2006 oder 2010. It is done when its done, take all the time you need" ? Or that three-job-Marshall just wants to become four-job-Marshall and therefore refuses to bring the game to an end ?
When Matrix and Marshall spoke about the timetable fot this game to come out, perhapse this timetable was ambitious, but not unrealistic. It became unrealistic by the bad progress in work, and as often as the progress in work was worse than expected, timetables had to been changed. And there had been so many changes that by now Marshall even refuses to mention any timeline anymore.
Some of you speak about a "hype". That it was a mistake to speak that "early" about the projekt and that this created frustration. And next they ask Marshall to "continue the good work". The only "hype" here is to describe Marshalls work so far as "good".






DodgyDave -> RE: March Update (3/6/2006 9:45:28 PM)

for me, its not about the time it takes to finish, but more if they could add in the rest of it as well, even if it takes longer :)



Marlowe -> RE: March Update (3/7/2006 8:22:58 AM)

I have to admit that I check out this forum once in a while almost entirely for amusement. But I do encourage people with a real interest in the game not to despair--after all, this game has not been in development nearly as long as Duke Nukem Forever.



Ivan58 -> RE: March Update (3/7/2006 1:38:01 PM)

In reply to St Cyr, and being in business myself, I must admit there is truth in it. In other business sectors you wouldn't get away with it. Luckily for Matrix:

1) we're all hopeless addicts
2) competitors do worse (at least contentwise)

The only one up against Matrix is Paradox.

I think Matrix would do better to adopt the Napoleontic tactic: concentrate all your fire on one target and then (and only then) take on the next. I think that's what Paradox is doing. They also build on the same engine. This common platform is of course absent if you have various disparate programmers each developing their own thing : no synergy.

Ivan



donkuchi19 -> RE: March Update (3/7/2006 4:24:28 PM)

You also need to remember that Matrix is the publisher not the developer. They may have some input but they are really just making it available for purchase. If you notice, all of their games are 'published' by Matrix but have different developers such as 2 by 3, David Winters, Marshall Ellis, Shaun Sullivan, and so forth. Guys this isn't Microsoft. If it was, we wouldn't be buying their games. I support Matrix for giving the individual developer the support they need to bring their games to market. I have already purchased 8 of the games published by matrix and only two are by the same developer. It may take a little longer but the results are usually worth it.



gazfun -> RE: March Update (3/9/2006 3:13:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: donkuchi

You also need to remember that Matrix is the publisher not the developer. They may have some input but they are really just making it available for purchase. If you notice, all of their games are 'published' by Matrix but have different developers such as 2 by 3, David Winters, Marshall Ellis, Shaun Sullivan, and so forth. Guys this isn't Microsoft. If it was, we wouldn't be buying their games. I support Matrix for giving the individual developer the support they need to bring their games to market. I have already purchased 8 of the games published by matrix and only two are by the same developer. It may take a little longer but the results are usually worth it.


Here! here! well said Don



pzgndr -> RE: March Update (3/9/2006 7:39:47 PM)

I have the utmost respect for all these individual developers and I've learned to be patient. Very patient. No point screaming at a bottle of fine wine and hoping it ages any faster than it does.

So when is this StCry dude going to develop his own game and give us a chance to critique his efforts? THAT might be amusing. [8|]



StCyr -> RE: March Update (3/10/2006 1:00:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


So when is this StCry dude going to develop his own game and give us a chance to critique his efforts? THAT might be amusing.


you think so ? well... you want me to tell you that my game is finished in 1 year and later on I change this step by step to 2, 3 or 4 years ? Oh, and perhapse you would like me to reduce any info about this game cause there is nothing new to tell ?
If some guys then praise "my good work so far" and ask me "to go on" - indeed, that might be amusing.
But to be honest, thats not the way I use to do my job, sorry.

Do you really think sombody needs to be programmer before he is allowed to criticize Marshall and this "go on with your good job" bla bla ?



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