The all seeing eye of Glen (Full Version)

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DFalcon -> The all seeing eye of Glen (4/27/2006 9:23:31 PM)


One of my opponents (my brother) and I have been discussing the IJN Glen equipped subs. These subs using naval search in the game give the Japanese player a strategic intelligence advantage over the Allied player. This seems completely at odds with the historical strategic intelligence situation.

In that light we have been discussing house rules to limit the air search capabilities of these subs. I thought the input of the community would be helpful in hammering something out. So far we have two ideas and welcome comments and suggestions on these or other house rule options.

1. Sub based Glens can only conduct naval search when stationed in coastal and atoll hexes. Recon flights can be made from any hex.

2.Only 2 Glens based on subs can conduct naval searches in one turn and only in clear weather zones.

These rules are ether or, both would not be used.

Thanks in advance for your ideas and opinions.



FeurerKrieg -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/27/2006 9:27:13 PM)

I like the second one better, but it would be a bear to manage each turn. The top one is probably better from a playability standpoint since you don't have to check each glen each turn, just check when you have a sub leaving an island/atoll.



Terminus -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/27/2006 9:30:50 PM)

In my mod, I've gone with rule#3: REMOVE THE GLEN COMPLETELY FROM THE GAME.

(might be a bit drastic for some, though...)[:D]

The Glen is definitely overrepresented in the stock game, as is. Those rules sound like viable options, although you'd probably go with the first one, as Feurer said...



DFalcon -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/27/2006 9:52:06 PM)


#2 gives the Glen at least some deep ocean search potential. I tend to micro manage my subs playing ether side but it is combersome.

I think you are probably on to something there Terminus. :)



pasternakski -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/27/2006 9:55:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

In my mod, I've gone with rule#3: REMOVE THE GLEN COMPLETELY FROM THE GAME.

(might be a bit drastic for some, though...)[:D]

The Glen is definitely overrepresented in the stock game, as is. Those rules sound like viable options, although you'd probably go with the first one, as Feurer said...

Rule #3 works for me...



spence -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/27/2006 10:26:00 PM)

It'd take recoding off course but the Glenn should be limited to Reconnaisance missions only.



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/27/2006 10:30:20 PM)

The real Imperial High Command wished the Glen's worked the way they do in this game.[:D]

Did Glen's in reality EVER accomplish anything of real value?
I read somehere that they were only good for a few flights.
The airframe couldn't handle the punishment of open seas operations.



DFalcon -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 12:17:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

It'd take recoding off course but the Glenn should be limited to Reconnaisance missions only.



Restricting them to recon only by a house rule seems reasonable and manageable.



ChezDaJez -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 1:51:25 AM)

I don't see removing it from the game or restricting the missions it can perform as viable options but I would agree that its use is overstated.

As any meaningful change requires a recoding, why not recode it to where the Glenn can only be flown in fair weather conditions? This would certainly limit its usefulness and be more historical as well.

If that doesn't fit the bill, then increase the chance of ops losses substantially for being flown in anything other than fair conditions.


Chez



niceguy2005 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 2:04:51 AM)

Not being as big a WWII buff as some on this forum I was shocked to learn that JPN even had that capability, at least in any real sense. I did know enough that in reality subs didn't have a significant naval search capability.

I agree the #2 would be hard to manage, but maybe this is not a bad thing. To me, that means that the player will choose not to use it more than use it and accidently break the rules.

I also like option #3.



The Duke -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 5:56:10 AM)

A Glen was the only Axis plane to bomb the continental United States during the war.....how about THAT for making an impact?

[8D]



pasternakski -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 6:22:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Duke

A Glen was the only Axis plane to bomb the continental United States during the war.....how about THAT for making an impact?

[8D]


The other day, I had a bug of unknown species but definitely possessed of greenish-white guts make a much bigger impact on my windshield.



bradfordkay -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 7:08:48 AM)

Past, that's probably a June Bug... nasty big green splats on your windshield...



Belce -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 7:33:41 AM)

Another option and also a coding one, would be that these sub based Glen's could not be repaired on subs and would have to be repiared at an airbase the sub was docked at. This would still require micro-manage of these assets, since their default would be to not fly. The rate of service damage of these planes from subs could also be tweaked to that they fly they are likely to be damaged.



Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 7:55:06 AM)

While in theory it gives them a better spread than they would otherwise have, you have to remember also that the subs have seemingly no recon ability, which is a bunch of baloney. All subs would at least stick up the ol' periscope up every once in a while and spot something (whether they attacked it or not).



Brady -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:08:04 AM)



Seams to me most glens get shot down fairly easly, rendering the subs that cary them and only one "sol" and far from home. Also a lot of the time the single plane misses convoys entirely that are withen it's operational patrole zone. Any sightings it makes are realy lucky ones.

Thier are several examples of their use to recon objectives priour to atacks made by Japan, many of which were not even noticed by the Allies.

And as stated by many before and shurley many to come, if you use a tool in the game in maner inconsistant with how it was used during the war your going to get results that are inconsistant with history. Thier are so many things that are so whacked in this game that this pales to insignafagance, being far closer to reality than many other aspects in terms of use and capabalitys.




bradfordkay -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:22:37 AM)

"And as stated by many before and shurley many to come, if you use a tool in the game in maner inconsistant with how it was used during the war your going to get results that are inconsistant with history." (sic)

Could this be why you see so many Glens getting shot down? [;)]

Sorry, Brady, I couldn't resist the dig... My latest game has seen three Glens shot down and three lost to operational causes, in eight months of gametime. Considering that most spend their time scouting the NE Australian coast (Cooktown through Brisbane), this seems to be fairly light losses to me...



Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:25:18 AM)

Yes Brady, I haven't played this game too many hours altogether, but I can say that I have NEVER spotted a single ship at sea with one of those sub-based Glens. Part of it has to do with their lack of experience and the very bad early weather, but the other part has to do with the ease of their getting attacked. My Glen's ship spotting abilities is confined to the pilot knowing there's ships about by the intensity of the depth charging.



Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:28:18 AM)

I've never sent Glen subs to those areas. I'm trying to send 2-3 east fo PH and the rest to be between Kwajalein, Wake, and the Solomons, hoping to see a massive fleet, which I never do.



bradfordkay -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:32:18 AM)

The AI uses them to spot TFs coming in and out of port. It really likes to crowd all its subs in the aforementioned area, so that's where I usually see Glen sightings. And, yes, I have had a few TFs spotted at sea by them, normally the ones taking WITP's Great Barrier Reef Inside Passage.

(note to AB or any aussie in the know... is this a true to life nautical feature or does the coastal shipping between eastern Australian ports run on the outside of the reef?)



Brady -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:41:24 AM)


In a New Game I am playing my apponet has lost two Glen's in just under two months of play time, one to flack and one to Operations, in comparasion he has lost 4 Daves (all to flack) 6 Jakes (3 Flack, One ground and 2 OP's). Comparing the relatively tiny Number of Glens to these other types would sugest that they are suffering a much higher atration rate.

.........

Of course they made the game so you can tweak things, and players can make what ever house rules they want to goveren whatever aspect of the game they think is screwey. To me this one is realy prety silly. At least compared to my pet peaves about the Stock game, But as my sig sugests I am not an allied fan boy.




Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:51:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

The AI uses them to spot TFs coming in and out of port. It really likes to crowd all its subs in the aforementioned area, so that's where I usually see Glen sightings. And, yes, I have had a few TFs spotted at sea by them, normally the ones taking WITP's Great Barrier Reef Inside Passage.

(note to AB or any aussie in the know... is this a true to life nautical feature or does the coastal shipping between eastern Australian ports run on the outside of the reef?)


In the case of the AI, it needs all the help it can get i'm sure, but, then again, if it's using them in an area that normally is patrolled by other similar planes, it's wasting it's advantage. You might not had been looking for it, but isn't it true that those same ships were spotted by other search planes, and therefore using the Glen in a poor manner?

Oh, skip that, I think I know what you're talking about now, but putting Glens around high traffic Allied ports is almost as foolish, as we IJN guys think that the Glen draws ships a lot more then it spots anything, such that it's best function, assuming it ever works, is to spot convoys in the shipping routes away from large Allied ports.



bradfordkay -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:52:47 AM)

My guess is that Glen losses (other than operational - which may be coded to be higher than most a/c) will depend upon the player's use of the subs. If he's off in the vast pacific between teh US west coast and Hawaii, they'll be very low. If he's scouting heavily defended ports (for some reason the Glen pilots cannot seem to stay away from the ports), he's going to lose some. These are areas that often have a lot of planes flying; new squadrons training up, old squadrons rebuilding, and other squadrons just waiting to move up into the line as replacements for worn out squadrons).



bradfordkay -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 8:58:25 AM)

"In the case of the AI, it needs all the help it can get i'm sure, but, then again, if it's using them in an area that normally is patrolled by other similar planes, it's wasting it's advantage. You might not had been looking for it, but isn't it true that those same ships were spotted by other search planes, and therefore using the Glen in a poor manner?"

Naw, I enjoy watching the turn play out and tend to notice what type of aircraft is doing the spotting. I'm pretty anal about watching the turns play out - it's why my games move so slowly (that, and all the time I spend here). I keep a little notebook tracking things like where the carriers are spotted, which subs have been attacked, what new major units I've received, what bases expanded and what enemy units or plans have been exposed by signals intelligence.


EDIT: sorry, this was written before you edited your post... maybe time to take a break from the forum!



Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 9:00:22 AM)

Be aware that I later appended that last post, as I realized you weren't talking about them patrolling their own port areas and that your ships were spotted there frequently. So it would seem that the main point of Allies wanting the Glen dealt with isn't real smart, if they're using them the way you suggest (the AI anyway), because they're in areas where they reveal themsleves easily. An annoyance to be sure, but despite there being no Glen to annoy me, the AI PI subs annoy the sea to the north like it's going out of style. The Glens are making the AI opponent that much easier, just like the PI subs gathered together, not harder.



Brady -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 9:02:47 AM)


All this does raise an interesting question though, and I must admit I havent a clue as to the answer, I know what it should be but in the game.....: How does weather efect sea plane operations in general? Does certain weather Stop Sea Plane operations from all types of ships?, and or does it efect the OP lose likelyhood? Or the damage likelyhood?, and Yes Glens could be reparied/maintained while on the sub.



Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 9:07:20 AM)

I'm not sure of the durability rating of the Glen compared to other IJ planes, but it would seem the correct rating for that would cover all concerns.



bradfordkay -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 9:08:43 AM)

I'd tend to agree that seaplanes shouldn't be able to operate at sea in a thunderstorm/blizzard hex from SSs, AVs, BBs, BCs, CAs or CLs. Maybe someone can come up with evidence that they were regularly used in those conditions, at sea - not from a ship at anchor, and convince me otherwise...




Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 9:11:25 AM)

I think getting back to one of my earlier thoughts is the real problem. the Allied players aren't mad because the Glen has abilities allegedly beyond what they were capable of, but that the Allies don't have a similar way of doing the same thing. Meaning, that they cannot do any recon with a sub, which all subs should be able to do to some extent.



Charles2222 -> RE: The all seeing eye of Glen (4/28/2006 9:13:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I'd tend to agree that seaplanes shouldn't be able to operate at sea in a thunderstorm/blizzard hex from SSs, AVs, BBs, BCs, CAs or CLs. Maybe someone can come up with evidence that they were regularly used in those conditions, at sea - not from a ship at anchor, and convince me otherwise...




Yeahhhhh, but if the Glen was susceptible to bad weather, then that ought to affect the durability rating then shouldn't it? IOW, if the durability is poor enough so many of them will be lost to ops their role will be that much less, and the IJN player will be forced to use them less.



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