RE: Release 3: In Development. (Full Version)

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Tbird -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/7/2006 8:52:23 PM)

I think there are more sim leagues out there as opposed to H2H leagues.



Scott_WAR -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/7/2006 9:43:42 PM)

Oh, I think H2H should wait for now also. Get the other, more fundamental flaws fixed, THEN add H2H.



mudrick -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/7/2006 10:14:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tbird

I think there are more sim leagues out there as opposed to H2H leagues.


Well, you're right. But most sport sims are not H2H. When Fbpro first came out in 96 and 97, more H2H league's were popping up than you can count.

I realize this is a sports title. But look at it from a different perspective. Would real time games like Doom, Quake, and other war games make as much money without online play? Not a chance. Would Madden? Advertising has alot to do with it too when it comes to Madden.

I just don't believe H2H is a feature to be compared to other features. It should be part of the game from the start. There will always be a need for improvement, always. So if you want to keep pushing H2H back, it will be pushed back indefinetly. I consider football a real time game.



Scott_WAR -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/7/2006 10:31:19 PM)

Very good point.

I just feel that adding H2H, BEFORE certain things work correctly might be asking for trouble. Why add H2H, and have many new people buy the game becasue of that, only to have those same people upset that certain parts of the game arent quite up to speed yet?
I think it would be better to wait till a few bugs (PAT when the quarter runs out reverting to 4rth and goal from the 2, punting when the quarter ends, etc) which directly impact playing a live game are fixed.



Tbird -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/7/2006 10:42:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Very good point.

I just feel that adding H2H, BEFORE certain things work correctly might be asking for trouble. Why add H2H, and have many new people buy the game becasue of that, only to have those same people upset that certain parts of the game arent quite up to speed yet?
I think it would be better to wait till a few bugs (PAT when the quarter runs out reverting to 4rth and goal from the 2, punting when the quarter ends, etc) which directly impact playing a live game are fixed.


That's true which is why H2H is a close 2nd for me. I would still rather see the additional sim option so I can sim my single player league instead of playing out every single game CPU vs. CPU. It will save lots of time



Sonny -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/8/2006 10:59:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

............................

It's better to fix the hole in the gas tank before adding a supercharger to the engine.



None of the additional features are holes in the gas tank. We're not talking about bugs here, we're talking about new features.



Deltadog -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/8/2006 6:07:59 PM)

I don't know? Getting the sim so that it yields results that are compatable with played games is a flaw in the current game and is similar to fixing the leak in the gas tank!



Albert18 -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/8/2006 8:51:44 PM)

I would vote the sim option also.

It has always been my impression that H2H is most important in poorly made or intelluctually light games. The first person shooters wouldn't survive without H2H because of this. You can't match Madden with the arcade crap so you have to cater to the niche market of people who want a more complex coaching/management experience.




redwolf1 -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/10/2006 5:15:03 PM)

Just an update on the current vote counts:



[image]local://upfiles/16625/FFEC010B9E8F46AB8B3A5F608DD99DF8.jpg[/image]



Marauders -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/10/2006 6:54:09 PM)

quote:

None of the additional features are holes in the gas tank. We're not talking about bugs here, we're talking about new features.

quote:

I don't know? Getting the sim so that it yields results that are compatable with played games is a flaw in the current game and is similar to fixing the leak in the gas tank!


That was my point in selecting the sim system change over H2H, graphics, or interface updates at this time.

Maybe I should have said it is better to fix the rough idle on the engine before giving the car a new coat of paint.




dreamtheatervt -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/10/2006 7:34:05 PM)

I vote for a better sim...although at this point it's just beating a dead horse



Scott_WAR -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/10/2006 9:27:00 PM)

LOL, yeah I think its obvious where this is headed. At least the majority of the community is on the same page. Nothing like having half of the community wanting one thing and half wanting another.



steelcurtain -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 4:50:03 AM)

Sim option

This is a niche game for simmers, customizers and play/profile makers. Real sims is one of the biggest things missing from madden. Unfortunately game designers, including apparently David, underestimate its value to PC gamers. The good thing is David's willing to listen and improve his game.



David Winter -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 5:58:08 AM)

Yep.. looks like that settles it..

Better arcade play is the clear cut winner and that will be the goal for Edition 3.



David Winter -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 6:13:44 AM)

[:D]

Okay.. well maybe that was funnier for me than others...

Just an update as to where things are at the moment.

The new PDS is coming along nicely. I think that everyone will benefit from that. I think it's pretty slick so far, but my opinion is fairly biased. Maybe some of the beta testers can give their initial impressions of it. I do think it's a fairly significant update and improvement to the game.

I wish I could give you a date right now as to when you'll get the first public beta's but I do not want to open that can of worms just yet. Please be patient.

A number of people have asked for a new/better depth chart system. This is something I've decided to ~try~ and get into the 3rd update as well.

Something I also wanted to bring up because I guess I wasn't very clear about it on my first post. The new 3D engine I mentioned also means a new and seriously improved physics system. I did mention the rag doll physics for tackles, but it's also a new system for ball physics. Incorporating the new engine into the game is not trivial. But the results would be impressive I think. It would also go a long way to allow people to get better results with systems that don't meet the minimum system specs. Right now, much of the passing problems are the result of two things. 1) incorrect play design, and 2) systems unable to provide a frame rate that doesn't break the physics.

Just to keep that in mind when you're voting, or if you wanted to change your vote.

Thanks for everyone's continued support.



Marauders -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 8:02:21 AM)

quote:

The new PDS is coming along nicely. I think that everyone will benefit from that. I think it's pretty slick so far, but my opinion is fairly biased. Maybe some of the beta testers can give their initial impressions of it. I do think it's a fairly significant update and improvement to the game.


It is nice.

quote:

Something I also wanted to bring up because I guess I wasn't very clear about it on my first post. The new 3D engine I mentioned also means a new and seriously improved physics system. I did mention the rag doll physics for tackles, but it's also a new system for ball physics. Incorporating the new engine into the game is not trivial. But the results would be impressive I think.


I would have brought this up, but beta still has a NDA. Thanks for posting it, David.

I'd like better graphics in the future, and of course, I vote for smaller shoes. [:'(]



Magnum357 -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 12:43:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

Something I also wanted to bring up because I guess I wasn't very clear about it on my first post. The new 3D engine I mentioned also means a new and seriously improved physics system. I did mention the rag doll physics for tackles, but it's also a new system for ball physics. Incorporating the new engine into the game is not trivial. But the results would be impressive I think. It would also go a long way to allow people to get better results with systems that don't meet the minimum system specs. Right now, much of the passing problems are the result of two things. 1) incorrect play design, and 2) systems unable to provide a frame rate that doesn't break the physics.


Wow! Thanks for the info David. I will have too seriously consider this peice of information. My system is low end compared to the minimum specs, and I think it would be neat if the 3D Engine didn't have too rely on Frame Rate too work right. I will have too think about this a while if I want too make a revote.



Deltadog -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 2:41:55 PM)

That might change some votes, but as far as I am concerned, the need for sims that are compatable with played games is still number 1. This moves the new 3D engine to 2nd position though.



Breeze -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 2:55:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deltadog

That might change some votes, but as far as I am concerned, the need for sims that are compatable with played games is still number 1. This moves the new 3D engine to 2nd position though.


Ditto.



Deft -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 4:03:21 PM)

I think one thing that should be considered is this isn't a project that some game developer soaked millions into that needs to get the most bang for the buck right away. (I don't know the financials but I don't think Dave has quit his day job and the sales sound good).

So there is no reason to try and expand the target audience. This game is definitely for the simmer who likes to design plays/playbooks and sim multiple seasons. So perfect that and make it work before trying and pick up the H2H market or go after an audience that would be swayed by better arcade features.



nmleague -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 5:46:24 PM)

A new 3d engine that worked better with low end systems would be great, and the improved depth chart would be great, they are needed but not first.

Im not sure what David sees as his target market, but it appears that the majority of current users are people that sim career leagues vs playing arcade or H2h. As someone who started with the first Sierra football and had all versions through to the ill fated 1999 version, I think the improved slow sim feature is the most needed. With the first Sierra games the sim speed was very slow, because of that I limited league size to 10 teams with I think a 8-10 game schedule. I would controll one team, play the game for that team for the week, then sim the rest of the weeks games, then sim all the next weeks games except for my team, then play that game. It took awhile but the stats were consistent for the played game and the simmed games. With this method I simmed many leagues for many years.

What Im looking for with this game is one that does something similar along with all the bells and whistles that it has. Currently simmed stats, though pretty realistic, to not compare with played game stats. Running backs having over 100 yards in a game but with no runs over 4 yards just doesnt work. Im not going to use the current sim engine at all. I have thought of having CPU vs CPU for all the games I dont play, but currently that takes to long and plus since a human has to be present at the end of each quarter to click the continue button, it just isnt workable for me. Thus we need a sim engine that gives compable stats, both for the team and individuals that we get from played games. The sim doesnt have to be super fast, I could live with a sim that took about 10-15 min. per game, but then again I dont try to sim multiple seasons in a day. Simming/playing a year in about a weeks time is what Im looking for. I maybe wrong but I think a large number of people are looking for something similar.

With an improved PDS, the ability to start a CPU vs CPU game that then runs to the end of the game instead of requiring humans clicking the continue button, and other improvements, in the next patch, I think I will finally start league play. THat will be with probably a 10-14 team league that wont use the sim at all. But Im looking forward to an improved sim with large league sizes.

One last thing, finanicals are a nice feature but except for a salary cap that would help create parity in a league I would probably turn them off. Head to head arcade has no appeal for me, head to head coaching/playcalling for league play would be attractive in the future once the other things are accomplished. I think in the future online league/commissioner tools are a must.



Marauders -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 7:21:01 PM)

quote:

Deltadog: That might change some votes, but as far as I am concerned, the need for sims that are compatable with played games is still number 1.


I agree. Large leagues need to sim games, but these sims need to have stats that have similar stats to a live game. I don't think David actually missed that this was an important consideration.

quote:

nmleague: One last thing, finanicals are a nice feature but except for a salary cap that would help create parity in a league I would probably turn them off.


I agree that a financial system should be for player salaries and salary caps. Setting the price of hot dogs is not something I'd care to do.

quote:

David: The new PDS is coming along nicely. I think that everyone will benefit from that. I think it's pretty slick so far, but my opinion is fairly biased. Maybe some of the beta testers can give their initial impressions of it. I do think it's a fairly significant update and improvement to the game.


I would like to add that PDS 2.0 basically integrates the functionality of PDS 1.0 into the 3D game engine. It will allow plays to be shown and practiced on the field without having to move back and forth between the PDS and the game.

This was requested by members of the Maximum-Football community. David had been considering a PDS upgrade for some time, but I am sure that the feedback here has helped him decide to get it done. This is a good example of how constructive feedback in this forum can really help.



dreamtheatervt -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 10:15:53 PM)

Well, I think David is going to eventually do all of the things, because he probably has some idea how to implement them already [8D] That being said, I am sticking to better sim, I would like realistic stats/leagues before anything else. Improved 3D would be more important than GM/financial things because I prefer playing NCAA or HS leagues. This game is going to allow me to create a more realistic Wing-T playbook than any of the Sierra FBPro games did.

Anyway, I'm just thankful David cares about what his customers want.



frunky -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/11/2006 10:38:47 PM)

Well I think the 2nd thing should be H2H play I agree with Mudrick that it would increase sales a bit. Because it would bring in the people who still play fbpro strictly for H2H leagues. It would also be cool to be able to play H2H in quick play mode also [8D]

I think NFL Head Coach will only have H2H in exhibition mode



Sonny -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/13/2006 2:35:23 AM)

Well, in that case I'm gonna change my vote to H2H,[;)]



Magnum357 -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/30/2006 11:37:33 AM)

After much thought, I decided to change my vote now.  Here is my 2 selections...

1. New 3D Engine
2. Re-implement the old "Slow SIM"

1 and 2 are actually VERY close in priority list so you could go either way.  The reason why I switched the SIM feature too New 3D Engine is that I'm concrened about how the 3D engine deals with game play.  Ya, my system is below specs, but since the game does indeed run even with low specs, it would be nice if the 3D Engine's Gameplay didn't have too rely on a systems Frame Rate.  Us low end users then would have the same possible results as the High End systems and that may be a better thing in tracking down bugs in game play.  And since I just play out my games instead of using the Fast SIM option, this would be ideal for my SIMMING needs.  Also, if David was too rewrite the 3D Engine to not have to have Frame Rate too play a role, it might make implementing a "Slow SIM" option to the game much easier.  That would be beneficial for the SIM Fans out there that want the old "Slow SIM" option back into the game that he had in before.



David Winter -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/30/2006 8:06:58 PM)

Ya, my system is below specs, but since the game does indeed run even with low specs, it would be nice if the 3D Engine's Gameplay didn't have too rely on a systems Frame Rate. 

Magnum. All minimum system requirements for games are the minimum requirements for minimum game performance. They are not the minimum requirements needed to achieve maximum game performance. When your system is running below the minimum specifications, you're going to get below the minimum game performance. Yes, the game runs. But that basically means it can initialize a D3D window and display a graphic. It's not fast enough to do that and process the game loops that control the logic and physics. My 4 year old computer can "play" Oblivion. Meaning, I can install it, and it starts, and it initializes the screen and displays some sort of picture. But it can't "play" the game. Meaning the frame rate is so slow the characters hardly move and there are graphical artifacts all over the screen to the point I just have to turn it off. I spent $80 on a game knowing my machine wasn't up to its specs but I tried anyway. I'm not surprised at the results. Now I realize, graphically, Oblivion is a quantum leap over Maximum-Football but I think my point is still there.



Frenzy -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/30/2006 9:23:47 PM)

I know this isn't the Oblivion forum but I can't just sit by and let David waste 80 bucks.  There is a project called Oldblivion (http://www.oldblivion.com) that has taken a lot of the graphic intense features out so the game will play on an old computer.  From the site:

Oldblivion is a piece of software which allows graphics cards which are pre DirectX9 to run Elder Scrolls: Oblivion from Bethesda. This means that Oblivion can run on cards such as Geforce 3, Geforce 4, Radeon 9200 and so on. Oldblivion is still in an early development phase but it's fairly stable, however there still are a few bugs and kinks to work out.

I tried it on my second computer and it runs really well and the graphics are still quite nice.  There are a few graphical gliches but no show stoppers in my opinion.  It certainly beats having a game sit on your shelf collecting dust!



David Winter -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/30/2006 11:45:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frenzy

I know this isn't the Oblivion forum but I can't just sit by and let David waste 80 bucks.  There is a project called Oldblivion (http://www.oldblivion.com) that has taken a lot of the graphic intense features out so the game will play on an old computer.  From the site:

Oldblivion is a piece of software which allows graphics cards which are pre DirectX9 to run Elder Scrolls: Oblivion from Bethesda. This means that Oblivion can run on cards such as Geforce 3, Geforce 4, Radeon 9200 and so on. Oldblivion is still in an early development phase but it's fairly stable, however there still are a few bugs and kinks to work out.

I tried it on my second computer and it runs really well and the graphics are still quite nice.  There are a few graphical gliches but no show stoppers in my opinion.  It certainly beats having a game sit on your shelf collecting dust!



Ohh.. well that's neat. When I get a spare minute or two I'll definately try that out. I'm pretty sure the majority of the problem was with my older video card. But the PC itself is below spec as well. It's a 1.2gig machine and according to the box, you need a 2gig machine.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand....



Magnum357 -> RE: Release 3: In Development. (5/31/2006 4:50:29 AM)

Ya, that is pretty cool.  I'm glad a few people in this world do try to help out us low end gamers that use old CPU's.  No offense to David on this. [:)]



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