How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (Full Version)

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Big B -> How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 12:43:46 AM)

I was testing to to see what the mighty Nuke does...not much it looks like.

I remeber Dereck saying that his campaign was ruined by code changes that kept his B29s from devastating Japanese cities (because of complaints that they could sink too many ships in port).

So I set up a scenario and dropped the A-Bomb several times over and checked the damage.

Select Hiroshima, starting Heavy Industry 720, drop one Atom Bomb; Heavy industry left - 621 (with 49 more being repaired) - total destroyed for good: 40 Heavy Industry out of 720...
Manpower 22 (with 4 more damaged) out of 36 to start.

Repeat test ten times - no change (Virtually No Change..same numbers every time).

Select different city as target, damage stays about the same.... 100 heavy industry destroyed (49 of which is being repaired)

Look at database, increase effect of device #213 Atom Bomb...you can't, it must have 32000 effect, or it will go to screwy values like -31264, or 2618, and the result will be identical to the above anyway. So the strength appears to be unchangeable.

That appears pretty weak to me. Couple that with the nerfed conventional bombing campaign (inability to lay waste to industrial centers) and question what the point of the end game is?

B



Terminus -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 12:52:17 AM)

32,000? It should be something like 20,000,000!



mogami -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 12:58:26 AM)

Hi, You are targeting manpower correct? I posted the results in another thread a while back when I dropped one on hisrshima (unbombed to that point) It wrecked the place.

I scored 20,000 points in 5 months from bombing Japan (no port or airfield attacks just city attacks) (strategic loss points)



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:02:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, You are targeting manpower correct? I posted the results in another thread a while back when I dropped one on hisrshima (unbombed to that point) It wrecked the place.

I scored 20,000 points in 5 months from bombing Japan (no port or airfield attacks just city attacks) (strategic loss points)

Atom bomb on manpower, atom bomb on heavy industry - effects not much different

[image]local://upfiles/16855/3D47249C14034FF0A384405E93507202.jpg[/image]



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:06:48 AM)

and the result of a Manpower attack

[image]local://upfiles/16855/F451A4A2D4F642B3BFF218B3F40CE0CD.jpg[/image]



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:08:28 AM)

Hiroshima before

[image]local://upfiles/16855/FAEA0A0229714DC983AC8610EEC48CF7.jpg[/image]



mogami -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:10:03 AM)

Hi, How many points did it score? I bumped up the thread where I did a very long detailed test of bombing (it was 1.80-I was testing it)

quote:

Hi, The bomb dropped on Hiroshima on 27 July DESTROYED 10 Manpower out of 36 leaving 4 damaged and 22 undamaged

It also destroyed 50 HI and 15 Engine. It damaged other items.


So yes you can destroy stuff.


The bomb left no fires buring. JSL 20722 (the bomb scored 3286 VP )

Note that even though the HI and engines were destroyed the Japanese could if they had the supply rebuild it by expanding. The MP is gone forever.

This scenario is more fun then I thought it would be. I have to find a Human Japanese to play with.

Dropped on Tokyo instead it destroyed 56 Manpower leaving 54 damaged no undamaged
33 HI destroyed 31 OscarII destroyed
Hitachi 31
Nissan 3



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:12:57 AM)

I wasn't looking for points - I was looking at industry destroyed (and manpower).
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, How many points did it score? I bumped up the thread where I did a very long detailed test of bombing (it was 1.80-I was testing it)

quote:

Hi, The bomb dropped on Hiroshima on 27 July DESTROYED 10 Manpower out of 36 leaving 4 damaged and 22 undamaged

It also destroyed 50 HI and 15 Engine. It damaged other items.


So yes you can destroy stuff.


The bomb left no fires buring. JSL 20722 (the bomb scored 3286 VP )

Note that even though the HI and engines were destroyed the Japanese could if they had the supply rebuild it by expanding. The MP is gone forever.

This scenario is more fun then I thought it would be. I have to find a Human Japanese to play with.

Dropped on Tokyo instead it destroyed 56 Manpower leaving 54 damaged no undamaged
33 HI destroyed 31 OscarII destroyed
Hitachi 31
Nissan 3





Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:16:03 AM)

Vs heavy Industry

[image]local://upfiles/16855/51C823760EBF438AAF8D72E82D318A05.jpg[/image]



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:16:39 AM)

Before

[image]local://upfiles/16855/B86D26E82123437382BDE14AB4D7526E.jpg[/image]



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:17:13 AM)

After

[image]local://upfiles/16855/F439BF8700C24F07967DBB8662D669FE.jpg[/image]



mogami -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:21:03 AM)

Hi Your bomb destroyed 50 HI (and damaged 49 more) I also bet it destroyed and damaged other factories/facilities.
How much you looking for?

Are you flying at least one recon mission before dropping bomb?
Check the Japanese strategic loss total before and after you drop bomb. (my attacks scored close to 4k points)



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:27:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi Your bomb destroyed 50 HI (and damaged 49 more) I also bet it destroyed and damaged other factories/facilities.
How much you looking for?

Are you flying at least one recon mission before dropping bomb?
Check the Japanese strategic loss total before and after you drop bomb. (my attacks scored close to 4k points)


The manpower loss is what I would have expected, The heavy industry loss should have been far heavier IMO. I did the same to Tokyo with it's 1340 Heavy Industry, I only destroyed 51/(49) again there leaving them 1240 Hevy Industry intact the next day.

A 60 mile hex is big - but the industry isn't that spread out that the bomb wouldn't wreck a city like Tokyo, or Hiroshima.

I would expect the industrial capacity after an atom bomb to be reduced to almost nill for that city, at least over 50% destruction.

By the way, the other centers making engines, and the ship yards were untouched.

And yes, Recon before and after.

B



mogami -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:40:39 AM)

Hi, While the bomb did flatten a portion of Hiroshima I don't think it would have destroyed Tokyo. (Tokyo is really not one city but at least 5 connected cities called Tokyo for WITP)
Hiroshima had everything still standing operating within 3 days of the bomb attack. (they should have evacuated but they didn't realize the after effects of a bomb) Trains and everything were back running.

It takes 600 bombers to damage 100 HI (they don't destroy any) and they do not impact any other target. If you bomb manpower and get a fire going you can damage a lot of a city but I have been unable to keep a fire burning for more then 4 days. (weather and bomber damage) But I knocked Tokyo down from 1340 to ...well it's in that thread

The best city attack (for impacting production over all) is once Home Islands are cut off from outside bomb the oil centers. There is not enough to sustain production so even 50 percent damage has major impact.



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 1:53:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami


Hiroshima had everything still standing operating within 3 days of the bomb attack. (they should have evacuated but they didn't realize the after effects of a bomb) Trains and everything were back running.


Yes, but I don't think there was much left "still standing" in Hirshima or nagasaki after the bomb.

I would find it impossible to believ that their industrial warmaking output was decreased by less than 25% of pre-attack levels.

I have been lead to believe (along with the rest of the world) that those to cities were...flattened, at least in a military sense.

B



dtravel -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 2:13:08 AM)

Big B, can you please post screen shots showing the status of ALL industry in those cities before and after? Mogami's whole point is that dropping an atomic bomb targeting "Manpower" will ALSO damage and destroy other industry in the hex. Likewise with "Heavy Industry".



Nemo121 -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 2:15:16 AM)

Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were "flattened" from a military sense. Certainly many people died but large portions of each city survived the attack, including the majority of their civilian and military populations and their productive capacities. Of course as has been pointed out before it would have been better for the civilians if the factories hadn't survived since then they might have left the cities and escaped the radiation but that insight simply wasn't available then.

A 20 kiloton nuke, while powerful, isn't as powerful as people tend to believe. I read a study once in which even a moderate-sized American city the size of Nagasaki had to be targetted by 6 MIRVs in the 20 kiloton range in order to "destroy" it... destruction being defined as killing more than 50% of the population and destroying more than 75% of its industrial capacity. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with the names of minor American cities and it was a few years ago so I've forgotten the name now.



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 2:15:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Big B, can you please post screen shots showing the status of ALL industry in those cities before and after? Mogami's whole point is that dropping an atomic bomb targeting "Manpower" will ALSO damage and destroy other industry in the hex. Likewise with "Heavy Industry".


Ok, I will have to set it up and run it again, it will take a bit.



mogami -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 2:17:08 AM)

Hi, Correct my Hiroshima bomb destroyed 75 total points of targets and damaged at least as much.
The Tokyo bomb destroyed 154 total points of targets and damaged at least as much.



Drex -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 3:24:01 AM)

Does the altitude affect the dropping of the bomb? At 15000 ft the plane would have been incinerated too.



pasternakski -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 3:33:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Neither Hiroshima nor Nagasaki were "flattened" from a military sense. Certainly many people died but large portions of each city survived the attack, including the majority of their civilian and military populations and their productive capacities.

This is accurate. We have all been victims of the grainy black-and-white photos of the destruction that were deemed "newsworthy." Tragic though the human consequences of the atomic bombing of Japan were, the military consequences were not much above negligible (although the political consequences were - and are - immense, as we all know).
quote:

A 20 kiloton nuke, while powerful, isn't as powerful as people tend to believe. I read a study once in which even a moderate-sized American city the size of Nagasaki had to be targetted by 6 MIRVs in the 20 kiloton range in order to "destroy" it... destruction being defined as killing more than 50% of the population and destroying more than 75% of its industrial capacity. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with the names of minor American cities and it was a few years ago so I've forgotten the name now.

I would be more interested in knowing the source of this information. A "20 kiloton nuke" is devastating when applied to a single rabbit. It is inconsequential when considered relative to the general powers of rabbit reproduction.



tsimmonds -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 3:42:52 AM)

I dropped the bomb on my mother once years ago. She's been using it herself ever since. I rather wish I hadn't done, it embarasses the clergy.

Oh, wait, that was the "F-Bomb." Never mind.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 5:17:05 AM)

I've never made it through 43 playing my ass off because of upgrades during beta. I'm about to hit 43 for the first time in PBEM. Who the hell knows what the f--k is going tpo happen with anything? This is a huge long winded beta. Some guys with no life and no heart attack may have gotten further but hell, we all know this is a long game.[X(][:)]



pasternakski -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 6:53:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
This is a huge long winded beta. Some guys with no life and no heart attack may have gotten further but hell, we all know this is a long game.[X(][:)]

This was a "long game" when it was published, Ron. It is now "the neverending story."



Ron Saueracker -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 7:39:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
This is a huge long winded beta. Some guys with no life and no heart attack may have gotten further but hell, we all know this is a long game.[X(][:)]

This was a "long game" when it was published, Ron. It is now "the neverending story."


Wasn't there a hot chick in the "Neverending Story"at least? We are all probably kinda pudgy, old, emblazoned with zits, more boring than an engineer, or some such. No hotties here.[8D]



The Duke -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 8:09:41 AM)

A better question is this: What poor old punchbag played the '41 thru '45 BIG scenario in a PBEM as the Japanese and had the BOMB dropped one one of his few remaining resource centers?

If that guy exists, I'd like to commend him on his perseverance....I'm just hoping to make it to summer of '44 in my game ;-)



Terminus -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 9:16:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Wasn't there a hot chick in the "Neverending Story"at least? We are all probably kinda pudgy, old, emblazoned with zits, more boring than an engineer, or some such. No hotties here.[8D]



Speak for yerself, you Canadian-type person, you...



el cid again -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 3:54:33 PM)

quote:

32,000? It should be something like 20,000,000!


Our system is 1 per POUND of weapon. Now atom bombs are not that heavy - but their yield is on the order of 40,000,000,000 pounds!

In fairness, though, it is mostly wasted. "How many times can you make the rubble bounce" is the saying we nuki poos use? Damage would be a lot more if you could get it more places than just one! You only destroy utterly a very small area - compared to a metroplex. Good film perhaps - but it is not quite what we imagine it is. Conventional bombing with incendiaries is a LOT worse. At Tokyo, in April 1945, we killed more people than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. A lot more. We destroyed the records and the infrastructure (police, firemen, vital statistics offices and clerks) - so there was no way to count the casualties - or even survivors. A demographer (American) I met in Tokyo studying this matter estimated the total at over 600,000 dead - and it could be anywhere from half that to twice that (the chances diminish as you diviate from the center value).



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 4:08:18 PM)

Ok here is Hiroshima before

[image]local://upfiles/16855/085226BECFAA45A09339D0B8790D65B3.jpg[/image]



Big B -> RE: How Many of you have dropped "The Bomb?" (5/9/2006 4:10:27 PM)

And here is Hiroshima after...

I still don't think the 10% to 15% reduction in heavy Industry is adequate for an Atom Bomb, even though there are a few other random damages

[image]local://upfiles/16855/EFD199A6884F416091961A4B12EFE23D.jpg[/image]



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