RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (Full Version)

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mogami -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/30/2006 3:35:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I've played over 20 pbem games since 2004. Not one ever ended because of a bug. My 3 current games all began in 2004 and are bug free. 

Of course all 3 games are mild compared to others.  They are in mid-late 1943 now.  Japan is on the defensive.  Nothing not occupied by Japan in actual war has been occupied (except for Port Moresby)





Are you still using the origional release code though? My problems had nothing to do with the game mechanics you mention above. I had land units and many aircraft simply disappearing, something which was confirmed by others on the forum at the time. I remember the last problem I had was with regards to aircraft disappearing whilst being transported if I recall correctly, though its a long time back now.

Anyways, at the time I found these frustrating to the point where I decided to give it a break. Im hoping all is well now but wanted to get peoples opinion before starting a campaign.


Hi, My 3 current games all started prior to release of first patch. There has been at least 1 game that went from 1941 to 1945 and many games are now into 1944. I've never had any airgroup vanish while in transit (unless AK was sunk)

It has always puzzled me why some computers run a program without problem while others constantly screw up. (I ran WITP for 2 years on a system below specs without problem)
I'd just bring my version up to date and try a new game against AI to see if old problems were still present. If you do have a problem. Send me your saved game file.



jwilkerson -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/30/2006 3:43:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPgamer

Most developers can pull this off, so I dont see why these guys cant, or hanvt already for that matter (as I said, I havnt played it for some time). 


Exactly. WitP is like no other game. It's full of tons of spaghetti from older games, and is balanced on the edge of a giant razor blade, permanently close to disaster. But oh, what a long way it's come.

I think you should start playing. You might find you have less to bitch about than you think.


Hi, where do you get your notion that WITP has code from any game other then UV? Nothing in WITP is even close to Pac War. Not production, not supply not movement. The scales are changed the menus are changed. Plus I don't think C+++ was even around when Pac war was written but I might be wrong there.



Don't know about tons of spaghetti (though would be nice when we programmer types get hongry) but an old programmer adage goes something like "amateurs write code - professionals cut and paste". [:)]

C++ was first used outside the labs in 1983, but then I don't know when PAC War was written.




ctangus -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/30/2006 4:08:57 AM)

The biggest bugs left are my own stupid operational decisions. I'm hoping someday Joe & Don will bulletproof the game against me! [:'(]

Kidding aside, the game's very playable right now. Worst thing left, IMO, is the "synch bug" in PBEM but that's easy to work around. Any annoyance that causes is far outweighed by the enjoyment I get from the game. Any other bugs I've noticed myself or read about on the forums are trivial IMO. There are a couple areas where the design could be better, but that's to be expected in a game of this size. While others may disagree, I'm willing to chalk up oddball results to the vagaries of war.

In short - play it! [:)]



Terminus -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/30/2006 11:23:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Don't know about tons of spaghetti (though would be nice when we programmer types get hongry) but an old programmer adage goes something like "amateurs write code - professionals cut and paste". [:)]



Absolutely. My old C teacher said exactly the same thing, and I lived by it when coding. Never learned to code very well, but that's a separate issue.



Caltone -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/30/2006 9:03:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Don't know about tons of spaghetti (though would be nice when we programmer types get hongry) but an old programmer adage goes something like "amateurs write code - professionals cut and paste". [:)]



Absolutely. My old C teacher said exactly the same thing, and I lived by it when coding. Never learned to code very well, but that's a separate issue.


Ctrl-c
Ctrl-x
Ctrl-v

That's a substantial amount of my keystrokes every day [:D]



dtravel -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/30/2006 11:04:34 PM)

And good professionals cut-n-paste code that works.  [;)]



Farfarer61 -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 2:40:49 AM)

OMG I learned more from this semi-sarcastic post on actually how play the game thatn many others! retire, not-retire hmmm...



Captain Cruft -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 3:12:10 AM)

It doesn't matter where the WitP code came from, or who wrote it and in what language. Things like "why expose a variable if we can  hard-code it", associated liberal use of magic numbers and, most of all, the miniscule, poorly designed and fixed size database are cardinal sins which just should not exist in any serious code produced since about 1985. Yes, Mr Gates, we will want to use more than 640kb of RAM!

That's not to mention the almost total lack of tools and documentation. It is inconceivable that the makers did not realise that people would want to "mod" this game. So, what do we get? The "Scenario Editor", which I suspect could be usefully employed in programming courses as a world class example of how not to make a user interface.

The laziness has no excuse.

--
After which, I will say that Don and Joe are making superb efforts into bashing the appalling thing into some sort of shape, for which they should be roundly thanked. Who knows, when we get to about version 2.0 I may even return to the fold.



dtravel -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 3:48:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft
Things like "why expose a variable if we can  hard-code it", associated liberal use of magic numbers and, most of all, the miniscule, poorly designed and fixed size database are cardinal sins which just should not exist in any serious code produced since about 1985.


And here is why people think the code for WiTP is reused source from 20 years ago. [:'(]



mogami -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 9:16:28 AM)

Hi, Crown of Glory is about fighting battles. everything else is to make the battles fit the story. COG is not about economy, not about diplomacy. These features just impact where and when and between whom battles are fought. If you are not interested in fighting detailed battles your missing much of the point. COG is a battle generator.

There is nothing wrong with WITP. The distractors don't care what code it was written in or how old it is. They don't agree with the results. If WITP made them happy it would create an equal number of new unhappy users. Rather then adapt to what is they continue to harp for what they think should be. They never offer "how to" only "this should be the result" And unless the system is changed they remain opposed. (They never think what they would have without it)



JamesM -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 1:42:54 PM)

After reading this forum the following questions arise:

1. Has anyone else done a computer game on this scale and this detailed (all ships are modelled even cargo ships); and

2. Who else would take the risk?



Terminus -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 1:48:07 PM)

That would be "no" and "no".



Floyd -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 1:55:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamesm

After reading this forum the following questions arise:

1. Has anyone else done a computer game on this scale and this detailed (all ships are modelled even cargo ships); and

2. Who else would take the risk?


The only game i know of is Empire, take a look:
http://empserver.sourceforge.net/default.htm
It is very complex, can be played online, there is no AI and
games take from a few hours (called Blitz) to several months
to complete. It has no historical background.





Ron Saueracker -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 2:11:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Crown of Glory is about fighting battles. everything else is to make the battles fit the story. COG is not about economy, not about diplomacy. These features just impact where and when and between whom battles are fought. If you are not interested in fighting detailed battles your missing much of the point. COG is a battle generator.

There is nothing wrong with WITP. The distractors don't care what code it was written in or how old it is. They don't agree with the results. If WITP made them happy it would create an equal number of new unhappy users. Rather then adapt to what is they continue to harp for what they think should be. They never offer "how to" only "this should be the result" And unless the system is changed they remain opposed. (They never think what they would have without it)


quote:

There is nothing wrong with WITP. The distractors don't care what code it was written in or how old it is. They don't agree with the results. If WITP made them happy it would create an equal number of new unhappy users. Rather then adapt to what is they continue to harp for what they think should be. They never offer "how to" only "this should be the result" And unless the system is changed they remain opposed. (They never think what they would have without it)


This is an incredible statement from a dev guy...but then again, you were always happy with the land combat system and were confident it could be uded in a Mediterranean Theatre expansion. Always being happy with what you have does not exactly help encourage change/progress/new ideas/correct assumptions/promote accurate design models etc...it reinforces the status quo, regardless of how unsatisfactory it is.

This is right up there with those who did not believe the was a problem with ASW or a problem still exists with Uber CAP or ZOC dynamics etc despite the overwhelming evidence.



Don Bowen -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 6:04:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

there (sic) was a problem with ASW ...



Geez Ron, does this mean you think ASW has no problem now?? Are you HAPPY with something???





Terminus -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 6:09:57 PM)

Surely not...[X(]



mogami -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (7/31/2006 6:37:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

[This is an incredible statement from a dev guy...but then again, you were always happy with the land combat system and were confident it could be uded in a Mediterranean Theatre expansion. Always being happy with what you have does not exactly help encourage change/progress/new ideas/correct assumptions/promote accurate design models etc...it reinforces the status quo, regardless of how unsatisfactory it is.

This is right up there with those who did not believe the was a problem with ASW or a problem still exists with Uber CAP or ZOC dynamics etc despite the overwhelming evidence.



Hi, For the record I am not employed by Matrix. I am a forum moderator because I've always been here to answer "How to" questions.

I play WITP everyday. I don't have ANY problems. I never say other people don't have problems just that I don't and when I help other people FIX their problems it is often a simple matter that has nothing to do with game design.

I understand you don't like WITP and that your going to do a better game but I like WITP so byte me.

I never said anything about a MED game using WITP engine. Please don't invent stuff for me I get into enough trouble on my own.

The one real issue I have with WITP is CAP over CV TF. I don't understand why strikes have to pass a check but CAP is 100 percent assigned and intercepts 100 percent of enemy strikes. Strikes can get lost but CAP never does. I don't like this but I deal with it. No point in USN commiting suicide against it. As Japan I must attempt to have at least 1-1 in escorting landbased fighters before I can repell enemy naval air and prevent invasions. (Japan has to have a lot of airgroups in reserve to replace daily loss. The enemy CV cannot replace loss as easy)

Generally I fix the above in 1942 by not operating great herds of CV together. (and yes I lose CV when battles are small and between equal forces but they look a lot like historic battles other then Midway. I've found the Allied opponents will agree not to place more then 4 CV in a hex if IJN does the same. In 1943 we lift this restriction. So you see even that part of WITP I find personally distressing I am able to work around and insure it does not impact my games. ONce a problem is known and a means of avoiding it found I fail to understand why people continue to complain about it rather then fixing it themselves.
The cure for "Uber CAP" of course will produce battles where both sides employ large numbers of CV and both sides lose a large number of CV in these battles. They will be fun to read about but in the meantime I'll stick to fighting smaller battles. Also I don't use any of the various tricks. Like removing bombers and replacing them with fighters to increase CAP. )

So when I say I am happy don't try to twist it into propaganda. I am just as entitled to an opinion as you are. I LIKE WITP. It's that simple. I don't spend a lot of time nitpicking little text messages that have no impact on my operations. I don't use any of the exploits. I don't have any of the problems you complain about. ASW has never bothered me. Land combat and movement work for me. (My units go where I tell them)
I don't expect to wipe out 100,000 troops in 1 day so I don't turn purple when I require 30 days to clear a hex. About the only thing connected to WITP that really annoys me is forum posters who tell me what I think or how I am some kind of Matrix yes man or invent things I've supposedly said in the past. There are no points to score in the forum by winning "debates" I have no interest in showing anyyone up. If someone posts a "fact" that is not a "fact" in my experiance I point that out. I then explain how I avoid having such "facts" in my games.

I'll learn to avoid comments in threads where there is no interest in improving the games performance and where the poster is really only interested in showcasing all the faults that can be found in WITP. Rather then prevent them they utilize them and then try to pass of these results as "NORMAL"




WITPgamer -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (8/1/2006 3:36:04 AM)

Guys, thanks for all of the feedback!  I just had one last question I thought Id post here instead of starting a new thread...

Is there a new update manual somewhere that takes into account the hundreds of chances since release?  I thought I saw one mentioned not too long ago but I havnt been able to find any info on it.

Thanks again.



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (8/1/2006 4:02:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

there (sic) was a problem with ASW ...



Geez Ron, does this mean you think ASW has no problem now?? Are you HAPPY with something???





Yes I am. I've said so often enough in the past. I'll say it again...surface ASW is one of the best things about WITP now, especially what was done with it given the scale.



VSWG -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (8/1/2006 4:02:09 AM)

Not an official manual, but Spooky has a "unified manual" on his website. Look under "Strategy guide & FAQ":

http://mathubert.free.fr/

But that's pretty old, too.





mogami -> RE: Grand Campaign - Any bugs left? (8/1/2006 8:26:05 PM)

Hi In Your WITP folder is a file called "whats new" it lists all the changes.



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