RE: MWiF Map Review - America (Full Version)

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Jeff Gilbert -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/17/2006 4:00:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
While the mountains arround Little Rock, Arkansas should be the Ouachita (ou-ah-chi-ta or Wash-eh-taw) Mountains (I think).

The area around Little Rock, Arkansas would be the "Ozark Mountain Region."

Side note: this is looking so good that I can almost see my house outside of Tampa. [:D]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/17/2006 2:29:55 PM)

quote:

Side note: this is looking so good that I can almost see my house outside of Tampa.

Great, I take it that you like the drawing [:D]

Edit 1 : Here is a close-up, can you see your house ?
Edit 2 : Please also note that Miami was added (1940 population warrants a city here). Is it ok with you all ?
Edit 3 : Also there is a Minor port in Miami (not shown on the picture because I forgot to draw it on the draft). Is it ok with you all ?

[image]local://upfiles/10447/3215152DB3B74633B06649EA2C2DCAE0.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/17/2006 2:36:48 PM)

quote:

OK, I like how NYC looks now. The small island south of Newark is way too big though (I know it is Staten Island and the official HQ for Matrix Games, but even so, ...). It should be about 1/3 of its current size and placed in the NYC hex. Then the Newark hex can become almost entirely land. And the middle New Jersey hex can gain a bit of land to its north too.

OK, I improved the drawing in this way.
But I also had another inspiration this morning :
As the Manhattan peninsula is quite tilted NE / SW, and as such the Hudson river is tilted the same, I wondered why not try a drawing taking advantage of the NW hexside to make it the Hudson, River.
Well, in the picture below are both ways of drawing New York, NYC1 to the left (which is my original idea) and NYC2 to the right (which is my today morning idea). Please tell me which is the better.

Please also note that in the NYC2 version, the hexside between New York and Newark became an All-Sea hexside, with a strait on it (which is an additional feature of NYC2, who can be changed if not appropriate).

quote:

Sorry for being so picky here, but I did live in New Jersey during my formative years: grade school in the middle hex, high school in the northern hex, and summers in the southern hex.

Thanks to all of us nit pickers, the game may be way better [:D].

[image]local://upfiles/10447/B568827852584B3384960D711D4E312C.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/17/2006 2:44:03 PM)

quote:

Shouldn't some of Texas be desert?

Here is a close-up on Texas, with the area west that was unseen on previous picture.
Note : On the MWiF map, the rivers names (Rio Grande, Pecos...) are written on the map, but I did not put them here.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/28B50A0F5FAF4D7582085DA893799896.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/17/2006 2:50:10 PM)

Here is an area (New Orleans) of the map that I am unsure of, and that could benefit from your comments.

The part that is tricky is the lake on the NW hexside of New Orleans, and the rail that must go across the Mississippi (W hexside) and then across again to be on the right side of the Mississippi.

Originaly, the rail went NW from New Orleans, but this put it on the Lake hexside, and I think that Railways ontop of Lake hexside may not exist in WiF FE. I do not know if MWiF accept them.

I also thought about putting a strait hexside on this lake, and leave the railway as it was.

What should be done ?

- Stay as is ?
- Lake hexside + Railway + Strait on the NW hexside ?

[image]local://upfiles/10447/37652DD23D164968BAE0D299A9C261F1.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/17/2006 10:04:41 PM)

quote:

Well, in the picture below are both ways of drawing New York, NYC1 to the left (which is my original idea) and NYC2 to the right (which is my today morning idea). Please tell me which is the better.

Well, I know I'm replying to myself, but, finaly I prefer NYC1 [:D]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 1:17:08 AM)

NYC1, (I guess).

As a historical note, in the American Revolutionary War the British attacked NYC frmo the sea by first landing on Long Island and then using that position to render defense of NYC untenable. Later in the war the Americans attacked by land from the north, coming down the Manhatten pennisula. Attacks from NE New Jersey due esat into New York are possible, because NJ extends quite far north of NYC proper. However, there is the Hudson River to be crossed and at the lower reaches, it is a formidable obstacle. Current down stream crossing points are the Lincoln and Hudson tunnels, the George Washington and Verrazano Narrows bridges, plus the Staten Island ferry.

So, NYC1 emphasizes the up stream land connections between the 2 states and makes it a 'ford', or river crossing. NYC2 emphasizes the down stream connections which are best modelled as a straits. To my eye that is a toss-up. But NYC1 gets the relationship between Manhatten and upper New York State a little better.



Jeff Gilbert -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 3:14:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

Side note: this is looking so good that I can almost see my house outside of Tampa.

Great, I take it that you like the drawing [:D]

Edit 1 : Here is a close-up, can you see your house ?
Edit 2 : Please also note that Miami was added (1940 population warrants a city here). Is it ok with you all ?
Edit 3 : Also there is a Minor port in Miami (not shown on the picture because I forgot to draw it on the draft). Is it ok with you all ?


Answer 1: Well, the top of the Tampa anchor is about on top of my house. Looks great. [:)]
Answer 2 & 3: Yes, Miami looks right to me and would warrent a minor port. IIRC the US Navy took over the Miami piers in early 1942 (February I think).



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 3:49:48 AM)

I think Jackson,MS should be on the map. Don't know if it affects the game but it is at a major crossroad in the South.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 12:25:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel
I think Jackson,MS should be on the map. Don't know if it affects the game but it is at a major crossroad in the South.

I first though that MS meant Missouri, because of your screen name, but Jackson Missouri only have a 12,000 population nowadays, denying it the right to appear on the map.
So I looked for Jackson, Mississippi, and saw that it had a 70,000 population in 1944 (rising from 8,000 in 1900, and 184,000+ nowadays). This is not enought to be on the map (the limit is 100,000, exceptions are made for special cases). The crossroad you are talking about is clearly visible 4 hexes north fro New Orleans.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/8D43B46D8C7E446589E50074446D0C2D.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 12:39:00 PM)

Here is what the Northwest of the USA looks like in MWiF, with the draft coastlines I drew.


[image]local://upfiles/10447/C1CC0069CF0D442EAAE7FC022A8BC11F.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 12:45:21 PM)

Here is the SW of the USA, with a bit of Mexico.
The red asterisk at sea are places where there was originaly an island hex, that I deleted because I found no island at that place on the real maps.
I was suprised that Grand Canyon (hexes around the E-W river 3-4 hexes NW of Phoenix) was not a mountain hex.

Tell me if there are things wrong.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/8176A319C986484CABF8391BF11E1343.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 12:54:06 PM)

Here is the Northern central USA area.
Not much things here.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/DCC41B3869AB4B16B606F66B8EF25A75.jpg[/image]



Raeder -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 1:02:57 PM)

If the standard for depiction as a city is 100,000 population, Tallahassee (which you seem to have mispelled as Talhassee) certainly does not qualify. A quick google search says it had a population of about 32,000 in 1940. Yes, it is the state capital of Florida, but don't read much into that. It had no particular economic or military importance that I am aware of.

I lived in Pensacola for 30 years; your geograhy in that area seems accurate to me, though I might have depicted the hex NE of Pensacola as forest. There are a whole lotta pine trees in that area today. I am not certain if there were in WW2, though. There is a major paper mill north of Pensacola now, St Regis may have planted a significant number of those trees since WW2.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 7:52:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raeder
If the standard for depiction as a city is 100,000 population, Tallahassee (which you seem to have mispelled as Talhassee) certainly does not qualify. A quick google search says it had a population of about 32,000 in 1940. Yes, it is the state capital of Florida, but don't read much into that. It had no particular economic or military importance that I am aware of.

I lived in Pensacola for 30 years; your geograhy in that area seems accurate to me, though I might have depicted the hex NE of Pensacola as forest. There are a whole lotta pine trees in that area today. I am not certain if there were in WW2, though. There is a major paper mill north of Pensacola now, St Regis may have planted a significant number of those trees since WW2.


Though I do not know why, as a general rule of thumb, state capitals in the US are small inconsequential cities. Rarely are they the largest, or best known, city in the state.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 7:54:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Gilbert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln
While the mountains arround Little Rock, Arkansas should be the Ouachita (ou-ah-chi-ta or Wash-eh-taw) Mountains (I think).

The area around Little Rock, Arkansas would be the "Ozark Mountain Region."

Side note: this is looking so good that I can almost see my house outside of Tampa. [:D]

Or, more simply, "Ozark Mountains".



wfzimmerman -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 7:57:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raeder
If the standard for depiction as a city is 100,000 population, Tallahassee (which you seem to have mispelled as Talhassee) certainly does not qualify. A quick google search says it had a population of about 32,000 in 1940. Yes, it is the state capital of Florida, but don't read much into that. It had no particular economic or military importance that I am aware of.

I lived in Pensacola for 30 years; your geograhy in that area seems accurate to me, though I might have depicted the hex NE of Pensacola as forest. There are a whole lotta pine trees in that area today. I am not certain if there were in WW2, though. There is a major paper mill north of Pensacola now, St Regis may have planted a significant number of those trees since WW2.


Though I do not know why, as a general rule of thumb, state capitals in the US are small inconsequential cities. Rarely are they the largest, or best known, city in the state.


Checks & balances politics. Everyone outside the major urban center was usually unwilling to have the major urban center also be the state capital.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 8:01:29 PM)

quote:

If the standard for depiction as a city is 100,000 population, Tallahassee (which you seem to have mispelled as Talhassee) certainly does not qualify. A quick google search says it had a population of about 32,000 in 1940. Yes, it is the state capital of Florida, but don't read much into that. It had no particular economic or military importance that I am aware of.

Well, I did not check all the cities that are already on the map, but I check for any new city that would be candidate to be added.
Cities already on the maps were decided by ADG design team, and though MWiF map may sometimes vary, this city (Tallahassee -- that I mispelled on the drawn map, but not on the real MwiF map [;)]) is already on the AiF (American in Flames) maps (that are used in normal WiF FE 39-45 campaigns).
I'm not too willing to touch at them unless there is a big problem to correct.



sajbalk -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 10:00:10 PM)

the map of America need not be overly studied, but the rule of thumb for cities of 100,000 could be uniformly applied. This is perhaps more useful for AiF, nonetheless, check;
http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab18.txt

for for the 1940 census figures, at least the top 100 cities.




sajbalk -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 10:51:29 PM)

Based off the same list I referenced above, I would suggest including:
1. An additional city or two in Ohio (S. of Lake Erie) to be Colombus (376k), Toledo (307k), Akron (275k), or Dayton (245k). Or even Youngstown (168k).
2. A city in upstate New York.Syracuse (221k) or Albany (135k).
3. Louisville, Kentucky is the largest city not mentioned at number 30 (369k).
4. The coast between NY City and Boston could almost be filled in with the cities in Massachusetts or Connecticut or thereabouts like Providence RI (249k), Worcester MA (203k), Hartford CT (177k), or Springfield MA (163k).
5. A good case could be made for another city in Michigan. Either GrandRapids (176k)  or Flint (163k). The former would be preferable for supply purposes.

Then there are some I would question as cities such as Wilmington NC, Charlestton SC, Alb., NM, and San Jose CA, at least in this time frame.

Finally, it seems like a lot of hexes from Omaha to Kansas City.




wfzimmerman -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 10:58:52 PM)

I endorse Dayton  - pop 243,000 in 44 -- and more importantly a MAJOR center for the Army Air Corps.



Anendrue -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:12:56 PM)

The Rio Grande needs some work. here is a blank outline map that may help.


[image]local://upfiles/17324/EF37F63CEB6943E5A2975D6DD2AE1A00.gif[/image]

Perhaps move the river up one hex southwest of the rail junction that is se of El Paso.



Anendrue -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:18:44 PM)

Your using table 18 which is the 1950 census, table 17 is the 1940 census top 100.

http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab17.txt





Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:19:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

the map of America need not be overly studied, but the rule of thumb for cities of 100,000 could be uniformly applied. This is perhaps more useful for AiF, nonetheless, check;
http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab18.txt

for for the 1940 census figures, at least the top 100 cities.

Thanks for the link [:D].

About the "rule of thumb for cities of 100,000", it is not meant to add all cities with 100,000 inhabitants or more, on the map. Otherwise, there would be cities in all hexes in eastern China [:D].
We need to stay faithfull with the WiF FE maps.
I think that it is ok for example to add cities in place where on the WiF FE maps units in their home country are in supply, and where in MWiF (due to exploding the scale) units are no more in supply.

For example, I considered adding cities between Spokane & Minneapolis (25 hexes distant), but I saw that on the WiF FE maps (AiF map) both places are distant by 22 European hexes, so the "no supply" zone in between themis normal, so I thought that no cities should be added there. By the way, Spokane is not on the WiF FE maps, it was added on the MWiF map by the origial CWiF designers.

quote:

Finally, it seems like a lot of hexes from Omaha to Kansas City.

About this, I noticed this too, and corrected it by moving Kansas City (and its rail to Wichita and the resource) 2 hexes E / NE. Omaha / Wichita / Little Rock should be aligned, and they are now.



Anendrue -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:30:17 PM)

Supply could be a major issue in the western USA. Since highways have been a significant source of moving goods in the us perhaps a highway or two should appear with the same rules as railroads. Hwy 66 comes to mind very quickly due to its extreme importance in the wetward migration during the depression and dustbowl eras. Maybe a few others too. This might eliminate the empty map syndrome without placing insignificant cities.

Another option would be to mark cities with significant military installations  even if there was no city of importance there. Especially since there were large bases for armor and air throughout the SW USA during the war.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:39:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
The Rio Grande needs some work. here is a blank outline map that may help.
Perhaps move the river up one hex southwest of the rail junction that is se of El Paso.

Would it be ok like this ? (2 hexes moved)
I think 2 hexes are more appropriate, because the curve is more than 200 km in diameter.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/5E6F04D4F1CA47EF87ED6F6EB5B26E36.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:42:37 PM)

quote:

quote:


Finally, it seems like a lot of hexes from Omaha to Kansas City.

About this, I noticed this too, and corrected it by moving Kansas City (and its rail to Wichita and the resource) 2 hexes E / NE. Omaha / Wichita / Little Rock should be aligned, and they are now.

About Kansas City, I placed it here (2 hexes NW of where it was originaly), I think it is better, do you agree ?

[image]local://upfiles/10447/ECE67CF1EF604EB1A333B4049D2FD6D1.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:44:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk
Based off the same list I referenced above, I would suggest including:
1. An additional city or two in Ohio (S. of Lake Erie) to be Colombus (376k), Toledo (307k), Akron (275k), or Dayton (245k). Or even Youngstown (168k).
2. A city in upstate New York.Syracuse (221k) or Albany (135k).
3. Louisville, Kentucky is the largest city not mentioned at number 30 (369k).
4. The coast between NY City and Boston could almost be filled in with the cities in Massachusetts or Connecticut or thereabouts like Providence RI (249k), Worcester MA (203k), Hartford CT (177k), or Springfield MA (163k).
5. A good case could be made for another city in Michigan. Either GrandRapids (176k)  or Flint (163k). The former would be preferable for supply purposes.

Then there are some I would question as cities such as Wilmington NC, Charlestton SC, Alb., NM, and San Jose CA, at least in this time frame.

Finally, it seems like a lot of hexes from Omaha to Kansas City.


The coastline from Boston to Washington D. C. is now often referred to as a megametropolis - one continuous stretch of cities + suburbs. So I agree with your suggestion that the hexes from Boston to NYC being all city hexes.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:49:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
Supply could be a major issue in the western USA. Since highways have been a significant source of moving goods in the us perhaps a highway or two should appear with the same rules as railroads. Hwy 66 comes to mind very quickly due to its extreme importance in the wetward migration during the depression and dustbowl eras. Maybe a few others too. This might eliminate the empty map syndrome without placing insignificant cities.

Well, isn't there already enough east-west rails on this map ? There are a lot !
There are rules for roads in WiF FE, but WiF FE roads are used in WiF FE in places where historicaly there was a transportation mean that was not as good as rail (road, river), but when there are so much rail already, WiF FE roads are useless to me.
Opinions ?

Note, Roads of MWiF already on the map :
- a tiny bit of the Silk Road (China)
- Burma Road (Burma, China)
- Arctic Highway (Finland)
- Kasai River Road (Belgian Congo)
- Amazon River Road (Brazil)

You see, those are all remote locations with a mean of transporting goods, but not as efficient as rail.

quote:

Another option would be to mark cities with significant military installations  even if there was no city of importance there. Especially since there were large bases for armor and air throughout the SW USA during the war.

Well, I'll leave the decision about this to Steve, I for one am happy with the existing cities. A couple of excceptions can be considered too.



Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - America (9/18/2006 11:59:49 PM)

quote:

quote:

4. The coast between NY City and Boston could almost be filled in with the cities in Massachusetts or Connecticut or thereabouts like Providence RI (249k), Worcester MA (203k), Hartford CT (177k), or Springfield MA (163k).

The coastline from Boston to Washington D. C. is now often referred to as a megametropolis - one continuous stretch of cities + suburbs. So I agree with your suggestion that the hexes from Boston to NYC being all city hexes.

OK, I'll look at adding cities in the empty hexes.

Coastline from Boston to Washington DC.
- hex 63,318 : Boston
- hex 64,318 : ?
- hex 64,317 : Bridgeport minor port for the moment.
- hex 64,316 or 65,316 : ?
- hex 66,316 : New York
- hex 66,315 : Newark
- hex 67,314 : Philadelphia
- hex 67,313 : ?
- hex 68,313 : Baltimore
- hex 69,312 : Washington
I suppose there should be no additionnal cities in lower New Jersey (2 forest hexes south of NYC) and no additional cities in the peninsula south of Philadelphia (what's its name ?).

So that is 3-4 cities to add.
PS : See post #23 or #33 for the graphics of this area.



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