RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (Full Version)

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jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/3/2006 10:27:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I looked for Subai River but did not find it, I would have placed its name on the map.
Would be cool when you mention some names to tell me, so that I look out and try to make them appear on the map, wouldn't it ?


I must admit I have not checked it out myself but it is most likely running near Gambela and Jokau.



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/3/2006 10:28:39 PM)

On other (good) news, Jimm has volonteered to do the Italians! Three cheers for him! [:D]



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 12:51:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I looked for Subai River but did not find it, I would have placed its name on the map.
Would be cool when you mention some names to tell me, so that I look out and try to make them appear on the map, wouldn't it ?


I must admit I have not checked it out myself but it is most likely running near Gambela and Jokau.


I have been looking for the river and I have not found it but I have been able to pinpoint Gambela and Jokau. The river seems to be called Sawbã today and pass through Nãsir in Sudan on it´s way to Gambela. Can you find it?



Greyshaft -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 9:32:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

On other (good) news, Jimm has volonteered to do the Italians! Three cheers for him! [:D]

Thanks Jim. Welcome to the team.



Neilster -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 9:36:23 AM)

quote:

I have been looking for the river and I have not found it but I have been able to pinpoint Gambela and Jokau. The river seems to be called Sawbã today and pass through Nãsir in Sudan on it´s way to Gambela. Can you find it?


The Janjaweed's camels drank it. [:@]

Cheers, Neilster



Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 10:39:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I looked for Subai River but did not find it, I would have placed its name on the map.
Would be cool when you mention some names to tell me, so that I look out and try to make them appear on the map, wouldn't it ?

I must admit I have not checked it out myself but it is most likely running near Gambela and Jokau.

I have been looking for the river and I have not found it but I have been able to pinpoint Gambela and Jokau. The river seems to be called Sawbã today and pass through Nãsir in Sudan on it´s way to Gambela. Can you find it?

I only find Subat River (Sudan), a tributary to the White Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rivers_of_Sudan), that seems to be named the Baro River once in Ethiopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rivers_of_Ethiopia).



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 12:18:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I looked for Subai River but did not find it, I would have placed its name on the map.
Would be cool when you mention some names to tell me, so that I look out and try to make them appear on the map, wouldn't it ?

I must admit I have not checked it out myself but it is most likely running near Gambela and Jokau.

I have been looking for the river and I have not found it but I have been able to pinpoint Gambela and Jokau. The river seems to be called Sawbã today and pass through Nãsir in Sudan on it´s way to Gambela. Can you find it?

I only find Subat River (Sudan), a tributary to the White Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rivers_of_Sudan), that seems to be named the Baro River once in Ethiopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rivers_of_Ethiopia).


I think we are having trouble finding the same thing cause of languages.

For instance I would think that the Baro river is the White or Blue Nile (blue nile = Bahr al Azraq ; White Nile = Bahr al Abyad) in an Anglified version of the name.

Maybe even Subat is Sawbã in the same line of thinking.



Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 12:42:00 PM)

quote:

I think we are having trouble finding the same thing cause of languages.

For instance I would think that the Baro river is the White or Blue Nile (blue nile = Bahr al Azraq ; White Nile = Bahr al Abyad) in an Anglified version of the name.

Maybe even Subat is Sawbã in the same line of thinking.

Baro river is not the White or Blue Nile, this I'm sure, I've looked it on maps.
The same river is named Sobat in Sudan and Baro in Ethiopia, I've put both names on the map [:D].



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 12:45:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

I think we are having trouble finding the same thing cause of languages.

For instance I would think that the Baro river is the White or Blue Nile (blue nile = Bahr al Azraq ; White Nile = Bahr al Abyad) in an Anglified version of the name.

Maybe even Subat is Sawbã in the same line of thinking.

Baro river is not the White or Blue Nile, this I'm sure, I've looked it on maps.
The same river is named Sobat in Sudan and Baro in Ethiopia, I've put both names on the map [:D].


Good! [:D] Glad we had that sorted!

The brisk walk tho congolese did is amazing. The distance is daunting and I can imagine that the terrain must have been challenging to say the least.



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 5:33:44 PM)

The first submission from Jimm! In my opinion an excellent write-up! Keep up the good work!



[image]local://upfiles/21761/66978FFC66AA4E7392A43C8D2547BE08.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 8:27:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
The first submission from Jimm! In my opinion an excellent write-up! Keep up the good work!
[image]local://upfiles/21761/66978FFC66AA4E7392A43C8D2547BE08.jpg[/image]


I agree, this is excellent. [&o][&o][&o] Far more than I dreamed was possible.

My only request would be to explain what the abbreviation RSI stand for.



trees trees -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 9:28:02 PM)

That is an excellent write-up! There is a nice "Italy in WWII" website out there somewhere with it's own forum that may be helpful for Italian units. This would be a good example of a spot where you may wish to mention that the WiF counter represents a division that you as The Duce _can_ build but that historically it never was deployed in divisional strength, to help keep the scale of WiF in perspective.



trees trees -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 9:41:48 PM)

I am in the middle of moving and any reference materials I have are deep in the storage area and will be until next spring. I am off to the Mother Russia thread momentarily to see what I can contribute there. I would be willing to try and work up some text explaining WiF units as I understand them but it will be another week or so before I free up much regular Internet time.

Again on the MIL, recall that the WiF counters are very far from a complete Order of Battle for any country in WiF. It could be said that the MIL units represent Infantry corps that existed in the war but not as a numerical designation on a WiF counter. Some MIL are better than some INF in the pools so they aren't simply replacements or reserves, although they are those things also.

The Croatian MIL write-up is good but I think the fact that it committed numerous war-crimes should be a little bit more explicit. "Persecution" and "concentration camps" dance around the truth a little. Yugoslavia degenerated into terrible civil war during WWII, it wasn't just noble partisans battling the bad-guy Germans.



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 10:46:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees
The Croatian MIL write-up is good but I think the fact that it committed numerous war-crimes should be a little bit more explicit. "Persecution" and "concentration camps" dance around the truth a little. Yugoslavia degenerated into terrible civil war during WWII, it wasn't just noble partisans battling the bad-guy Germans.


It is not the issue I cannot find plenty of stuff about the terrible side of the war but the question is wether or not we should delve into that. I will leave that to Steve to decide but my initial thought is to leave it be, and just mention it briefly.



trees trees -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/4/2006 11:45:45 PM)

That would be a good call for the editor, yes. It is a little-known fact that the Croatian Fascists killed estimates of 500,000 civilians during the war. They were so brutal some Italian commanders ignored orders to work with them and German officers in the field complained to higher-ups about them. Once people learn that there was a Croatian puppet-state that contributed arms to the Axis cause, I think a little bit more should be revealed. This does begin to open a historical Pandora's Box a little. In WiF this unit is usually just left in Yugoslavia to help garrison the place, but there was a lot more to the story than that.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 12:22:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

That would be a good call for the editor, yes. It is a little-known fact that the Croatian Fascists killed estimates of 500,000 civilians during the war. They were so brutal some Italian commanders ignored orders to work with them and German officers in the field complained to higher-ups about them. Once people learn that there was a Croatian puppet-state that contributed arms to the Axis cause, I think a little bit more should be revealed. This does begin to open a historical Pandora's Box a little. In WiF this unit is usually just left in Yugoslavia to help garrison the place, but there was a lot more to the story than that.

I see the role of the unit writeups to be: (1) personalize the units so they are not anonymous 4-4s, (2) stimulate the player to read more about the history of WWII.

I think Capitan has gotten it right for the Croatian unit. There is enough information to let the reader glimpse that there is more to the story. Yet it is not heavy handed.

This subject came up before and my opinion hasn't changed: touch lightly on the atrocities; it is not the goal of MWIF to lecture, but instead to entertain.



Mziln -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 1:04:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

My only request would be to explain what the abbreviation RSI stand for.



Link to: La Repubblica Sociale Italiana (RSI or The Italian Social Republic) The post-1943 Italian Fascist forces of WWII



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 3:27:35 AM)

[2134] [Army of Peru]
.T Peru was one of the countries in the world that was least affected by the great depression in the 30´s and the civil society was vivid and relatively healthy. There was however conflicts on the rise with Ecuador over disputed territories in the Amazon. A conflict that escalated from a dispute to outright war in 1941.
.P The Peruvian Army was prepared for war and over 13.000 men crossed the border rapidly and caught the Ecuadorians by surprise. They were well equipped with tanks and artillery.
.P When the conflict ended in February 1942 a handful of Peruvian lives had been lost but huge tracts of land near the Amazon had been gained.
.P The Peruvian pilot, José Quiñones, was declared a war hero for an extraordinary feat done against the enemy. He was shot down over Ecuadorian territory but instead of trying to land his aircraft (NA-50) he directed the plane towards the anti-aircraft gun that shot him down. This has been disputed afterwards though, since Ecuador did not have any functioning anti-aircraft guns at the time.
.P Noteworthy is that this conflict marks the first use of paratroopers on the South American continent.

-------

Everyone loves to have a hero! [:D]



Jimm -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 5:07:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

That is an excellent write-up! There is a nice "Italy in WWII" website out there somewhere with it's own forum that may be helpful for Italian units. This would be a good example of a spot where you may wish to mention that the WiF counter represents a division that you as The Duce _can_ build but that historically it never was deployed in divisional strength, to help keep the scale of WiF in perspective.


Thanks! Appreciate the comments. Just glad to be able to make a contribution.
I'll amend with the RSI definition.
http://www.comandosupremo.com/ is a fantastic source which I heartily recommend for anyone with an interest in the Italians. There is a fair amount of other stuff out there but you have to pick carefully to find an Italian perspectives.

Jimm








Greyshaft -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 9:09:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

[2134] [Army of Peru]
.T Peru was one of the countries in the world that was least affected by the great depression in the 30´s and the civil society was vivid and relatively healthy. There was however conflicts on the rise with Ecuador over disputed territories in the Amazon. A conflict that escalated from a dispute to outright war in 1941.


perhaps...
Peru was not greatly affected by the great depression in the 30´s and the civil society was vivid and relatively healthy, however there were disputes with Ecuador over certain territories in the Amazon.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 9:31:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft
quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
[2134] [Army of Peru]
.T Peru was one of the countries in the world that was least affected by the great depression in the 30´s and the civil society was vivid and relatively healthy. There was however conflicts on the rise with Ecuador over disputed territories in the Amazon. A conflict that escalated from a dispute to outright war in 1941.


perhaps...
Peru was not greatly affected by the great depression in the 30´s and the civil society was vivid and relatively healthy, however there were disputes with Ecuador over certain territories in the Amazon.


[:D][:D][:D]

I laugh because I edited over 1200 writeups by Greyshaft and I made the following change countless times.

Peru was not greatly affected by the great depression in the 30´s and the civil society was vivid and relatively healthy. However, there were disputes with Ecuador over certain territories in the Amazon.

To complete this, I propose:
Eventually those disputes escalated into outright war in 1941.



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 9:56:17 PM)

3 new write-ups submitted by Jimm and Wosung! Good job guys.

I have changed the Peruvian write-up to what Steve wrote.

13% done in total! (see page 2 for details. I update the list there as soon as someone submits a write-up)

If anyone wants to volonteer for the UK, France or Russia that would be most welcome!



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/5/2006 10:40:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
3 new write-ups submitted by Jimm and Wosung! Good job guys.

I have changed the Peruvian write-up to what Steve wrote.

13% done in total! (see page 2 for details. I update the list there as soon as someone submits a write-up)

If anyone wants to volonteer for the UK, France or Russia that would be most welcome!


AOI is Italian - a composite unit for Italian East Africa.



Greyshaft -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/6/2006 3:20:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

[:D][:D][:D]

I laugh because I edited over 1200 writeups by Greyshaft and I made the following change countless times.


Yep... we all benefit by having another set of eyes revise what we write [:)]



brian brian -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/6/2006 9:32:38 PM)

my 'trees trees' login cookie went off to the great bit-bucket in the sky somehow. anyway on the Croatian write-up I agree with Steve that MWiF isn't the place to get in to the morals of WWII. I only brought it up because that puppet-state was possibly the worst of the worst on the Axis side. I just think the two phrases 'persecution' and 'concentration camp' touch too lightly on the truth here, like the Ustache were just a bunch of bad cops working for the Germans or something. A half a million civillians killed is one heck of a lot of evil. I think a a phrase like 'this unit is blamed for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of unarmed people' would still touch lightly on it with a bit of a more clear perspective.



wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/6/2006 10:12:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I just think the two phrases 'persecution' and 'concentration camp' touch too lightly on the truth here, like the Ustache were just a bunch of bad cops working for the Germans or something.


Do you know Christopher Browning's "Ordinary men" [Ganz normale Männer]?

It's a book about a German police batallion (non military type) from Hamburg, whos members were murdering civilians behind the front in Russia.

Somtimes these figures were that: just a bunch of bad cops.


But I don't wanna fire a big discussion about atrocities in WW2, nor offend any policemen. The latter you could substitute by fire fighters, or who else...

Regards



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/6/2006 10:16:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

my 'trees trees' login cookie went off to the great bit-bucket in the sky somehow. anyway on the Croatian write-up I agree with Steve that MWiF isn't the place to get in to the morals of WWII. I only brought it up because that puppet-state was possibly the worst of the worst on the Axis side. I just think the two phrases 'persecution' and 'concentration camp' touch too lightly on the truth here, like the Ustache were just a bunch of bad cops working for the Germans or something. A half a million civillians killed is one heck of a lot of evil. I think a a phrase like 'this unit is blamed for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of unarmed people' would still touch lightly on it with a bit of a more clear perspective.

Please let's leave this topic alone.

WIF has absolutely nothing about civilians or POWs in the game.



brian brian -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/7/2006 1:13:55 AM)

no problem Steve, it was nasty all over. I took a grad level course in the history of WWII in the Balkans and it was really an eye-opener.



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/7/2006 9:24:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

no problem Steve, it was nasty all over. I took a grad level course in the history of WWII in the Balkans and it was really an eye-opener.


As you mentioned earlier, it is a Pandoras box, if we mention this why should we not mention Babi Yar, the Allied Bombings of Dresden or Japanese treatment of POWs?. Anyway I am glad we can all agree.

13% of the write-ups done! Italy is coming along very nicely and so is China. My Germans have been on a hold while I have done some neutral countries. The División Azul was interesting to do to say the least.



Davidt -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/7/2006 3:16:09 PM)

Need help on the BULGARIAN army writeups

Unfortunately it seems that the actual armies deployed by the bulgarians dont match with the pieces in MWIF. This goes for both the naming and the number of Corps. My guess is that the MWIF pieces for the Bulgarian I and II Corps are the Bulgarian 5th army and the 1. occupation corps. See link
http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/bulgaria/organization/1943/ for example. Also it seems that the Bulgarians actually did more fighting against the germans towards the end of the war than for the germans http://members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-bul.html. My concerne is this will be confusing to add in a game where the specific piece is an axis piece. (The same concern is valid for the Sofia Mil) 

I the absence of naming consistency i have decided to do a more generic description for the 2 Bulgarian infantry corps units instead of specifics for a given unit.

 
 
The Bulgarian Army (Infantry Corps I and II)
 
There were strong pro-German tendencies in Bulgarian foreign policy at the start of the second world war. The driving force was the desire to regain the lands lost by Bulgaria, after the First World War.
 
On march 1. 1941 Bulgaria acceded to the Axis Tri-Partite Treaty. At this time the mobilized Bulgarian armed landforces consisted of 16 infantry divisions, two cavalry divisions, one motorized brigade as well as special and service units.
 
In April of 1941 Bulgaria was awarded Aegean and Vardarian Thrace and the entire Jugoslav Macedonia, as well as  and extreme south-eastern section of Serbia. Bulgaria also co-participated in the occupation of the remainder of Serbia (until September of 1944).
 
The Bulgarian government refused, despite heavy axis pressure, to commit its troops against the Soviet Union.  Bulgaria even, as the only axis country, allowed a Soviet embassy to operate for the entire duration of the conflict,
 
Bulgaria declared war on the UK and the United states on December 13. 1941.


Let me hear what you think. Is this fine or can someone help me differentiate the units??

Regards
David



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