RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (Full Version)

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Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/7/2006 8:24:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Davidt
Need help on the BULGARIAN army writeups

Unfortunately it seems that the actual armies deployed by the bulgarians dont match with the pieces in MWIF. This goes for both the naming and the number of Corps. My guess is that the MWIF pieces for the Bulgarian I and II Corps are the Bulgarian 5th army and the 1. occupation corps. See link
http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/bulgaria/organization/1943/ for example. Also it seems that the Bulgarians actually did more fighting against the germans towards the end of the war than for the germans http://members.tripod.com/~marcin_w/index-bul.html. My concerne is this will be confusing to add in a game where the specific piece is an axis piece. (The same concern is valid for the Sofia Mil) 

I the absence of naming consistency i have decided to do a more generic description for the 2 Bulgarian infantry corps units instead of specifics for a given unit.

 
 
The Bulgarian Army (Infantry Corps I and II)
 
There were strong pro-German tendencies in Bulgarian foreign policy at the start of the second world war. The driving force was the desire to regain the lands lost by Bulgaria, after the First World War.
 
On march 1. 1941 Bulgaria acceded to the Axis Tri-Partite Treaty. At this time the mobilized Bulgarian armed landforces consisted of 16 infantry divisions, two cavalry divisions, one motorized brigade as well as special and service units.
 
In April of 1941 Bulgaria was awarded Aegean and Vardarian Thrace and the entire Jugoslav Macedonia, as well as  and extreme south-eastern section of Serbia. Bulgaria also co-participated in the occupation of the remainder of Serbia (until September of 1944).
 
The Bulgarian government refused, despite heavy axis pressure, to commit its troops against the Soviet Union.  Bulgaria even, as the only axis country, allowed a Soviet embassy to operate for the entire duration of the conflict,
 
Bulgaria declared war on the UK and the United states on December 13. 1941.


Let me hear what you think. Is this fine or can someone help me differentiate the units??

Regards
David


What you have both at the top and at the bottom would be ok by me. You could say:

The armies deployed by Bulgaria do not match precisely with the counters in WIF. In addition, Bulgaria switched sides towards the end of the war and therefore spent some of the war fighting with the Germans and some of it against the Germans.

You could then either include what you have already written and/or some operation details on the Bulgarian 5th Army and 1st Occupation Corps (using the combat units you mentioned - I know absolutely nothing about this).

I feel no compulsion to hide things from the players - WIF is a game and by necessity, it only approximates reality everywhere if you look closely enough. That's not to say that discrepancies should be emphasized in the unit writeups, but neither should they be hidden away as if we are embarrassed by them. WIF is as it is. We like it, and so will others - despite the odd blemishes.



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/7/2006 8:53:13 PM)

PM sent to David but I agree with what Steve said here. Sometimes we need to approximate and as long as we are clear with what we are doing I see no harm.



Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/7/2006 9:05:45 PM)

quote:

I feel no compulsion to hide things from the players - WIF is a game and by necessity, it only approximates reality everywhere if you look closely enough. That's not to say that discrepancies should be emphasized in the unit writeups, but neither should they be hidden away as if we are embarrassed by them. WIF is as it is. We like it, and so will others - despite the odd blemishes.

I agree with that.



Jimm -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/8/2006 9:39:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

PM sent to David but I agree with what Steve said here. Sometimes we need to approximate and as long as we are clear with what we are doing I see no harm.


I think this will inevitibly be an issue we will have to sometimes have to be a bit vague on. I'm having some problems with Italians too, sometimes where what are marked as corps in the game appear to actually be divisions IRL; and furthermore were part of other corps which are also represented in the game.

In the end we've got to accept that the names and numbers on the units are there to add colour and interest to the game, and not get too hung up on it!

Jimm



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/8/2006 10:11:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimm


quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

PM sent to David but I agree with what Steve said here. Sometimes we need to approximate and as long as we are clear with what we are doing I see no harm.


I think this will inevitibly be an issue we will have to sometimes have to be a bit vague on. I'm having some problems with Italians too, sometimes where what are marked as corps in the game appear to actually be divisions IRL; and furthermore were part of other corps which are also represented in the game.

In the end we've got to accept that the names and numbers on the units are there to add colour and interest to the game, and not get too hung up on it!

Jimm

Yes



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/9/2006 12:29:49 PM)

A pleasant surprise arrived in my mailbox today! A man called Adam has volounteered for the finnish units and sent me one finished write-up straight away. Thank you Adam for stepping up! Here is the screenshot of what he did (the missing word in the second paragraph is my fault and corrected in the original document now)



[image]local://upfiles/21761/1B667BDEE5F949FA8C1C353F25F0650E.jpg[/image]



grab -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/9/2006 9:39:45 PM)

I'm currently producing the writeups for the artillery, a/tk and AA guns. I have hit a wall trying to source information on the US 128mm AA gun. Can anyone point me in the right direction please.

cheers

Gary



mlees -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/9/2006 10:15:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: grab

I'm currently producing the writeups for the artillery, a/tk and AA guns. I have hit a wall trying to source information on the US 128mm AA gun. Can anyone point me in the right direction please.

cheers

Gary



Shipboard: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-38_mk12.htm

Unfortunately, my google-fu is not up to the task.

I dunno if there were any of these mounts used ashore (although I suspect there may have been) ...still looking.



mldtchdog -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 4:30:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Davidt

quote:

Need help on the BULGARIAN army writeups


Try here for the 1941 order of battle.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/032_bulgaria/_bu.htm

I find it to be a good starting place.

-Adam



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 6:34:07 AM)

Adam has finished the Finns and screenies will come later tonight! Good work Adam! Yesterday Helsinki, tomorrow Berne!

We will probably need to put some flesh into the "fictive" finnish ski-divisions, so if anyone have any good stories, details or what nots please speak your mind.



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 8:44:18 PM)

As promised I will post some of the screenshots



[image]local://upfiles/21761/ADE669961F0F4DA2B621335259B14D47.jpg[/image]



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 8:46:55 PM)

I forgot to have the cursor over the unit when taking this screenshot so the stats are not shown but this is still a very nice read!



[image]local://upfiles/21761/9FCFC24CD08C446DA7A11CFDE1B81891.jpg[/image]



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 8:47:34 PM)

Some US ART to follow

[image]local://upfiles/21761/592ABB02A5E54115884F3CBA3634ED27.jpg[/image]



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 8:48:17 PM)

All very nice reads!

[image]local://upfiles/21761/A9C5D5C6C91B417D9C3B22205966C8FA.jpg[/image]



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 8:50:05 PM)

The last one for this this round. I would post another communist chinese unit but I do not have a good way to catch that large amount of text that is involved in Wosungs thorough and interesting reads. Maybe something for Steve to help me with? [:D]



[image]local://upfiles/21761/C60218EBAAF645989ACCF2801FEF7C72.jpg[/image]



jesperpehrson -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 8:52:53 PM)

Ah what the h*ck, I will post this ski division to see what you think and how we can expand on the "fictional" ski-divisions.



[image]local://upfiles/21761/BC843F2F0D9D4A4D9A5974E6667504F8.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 9:27:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan

The last one for this this round. I would post another communist chinese unit but I do not have a good way to catch that large amount of text that is involved in Wosungs thorough and interesting reads. Maybe something for Steve to help me with? [:D]


I use HyperSnap 6 which has worked wonderfully for me. I take 2 (or 3) screen shots to capture all the text and then cut the bottom text portion(s) out and paste it(them) on top of the first screen shot. The first screen shot needs to have enough room at the bottom to hold all the text.



trees -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/12/2006 10:34:08 PM)

going way back to the question about the '128mm' US Heavy AA piece, don't discount the possibility that Harry simply put that spec on a counter included in WiF for a unit type the US never actually built....but could have.



wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/13/2006 8:54:34 AM)

apropos built,

I would love to see some production numbers in the write-ups for "equipment-counters" (arty, planes).



CBoehm -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/13/2006 5:58:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees

going way back to the question about the '128mm' US Heavy AA piece, don't discount the possibility that Harry simply put that spec on a counter included in WiF for a unit type the US never actually built....but could have.


hmm at my guess he made a mistake ...and really meant the 120 AA gun spoken of here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120_mm_M1_gun



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/13/2006 7:22:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees

going way back to the question about the '128mm' US Heavy AA piece, don't discount the possibility that Harry simply put that spec on a counter included in WiF for a unit type the US never actually built....but could have.


hmm at my guess he made a mistake ...and really meant the 120 AA gun spoken of here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120_mm_M1_gun

Perhaps Patrice can ask Harry. It is easy enough to rename the unit (in fact, the players could do that themselves).



amwild -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/14/2006 12:27:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees

going way back to the question about the '128mm' US Heavy AA piece, don't discount the possibility that Harry simply put that spec on a counter included in WiF for a unit type the US never actually built....but could have.


hmm at my guess he made a mistake ...and really meant the 120 AA gun spoken of here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120_mm_M1_gun


This seems like a likely explanation. The Germans had a 128mm AA gun (The 12.8 cm Flak 40), but my reference material doesn't mention any US AA guns anywhere near this size - probably because they were never used.



Mziln -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/14/2006 5:58:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amwild


quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees

going way back to the question about the '128mm' US Heavy AA piece, don't discount the possibility that Harry simply put that spec on a counter included in WiF for a unit type the US never actually built....but could have.


hmm at my guess he made a mistake ...and really meant the 120 AA gun spoken of here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/120_mm_M1_gun


This seems like a likely explanation. The Germans had a 128mm AA gun (The 12.8 cm Flak 40), but my reference material doesn't mention any US AA guns anywhere near this size - probably because they were never used.



True but 128mm converts to 5 inch which the US did use.

But then again it may have been a typeo and ment to be 120mm.



wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/19/2006 2:51:44 PM)

Short question:

Are MWIF Chinese non divisional normal INF units Corps (XXX) or Army sized (XXXX)???

According to Schodts' WIFFE counter webside, they are Army sized. Besides there are corps sized CAV, MTN, MOT, Mech, Para.

http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm

According to the unit picture in post 42 of the MWIF thread (unit descriptions) they are Corps sized.

For doing unit write ups I should know this, for linking MWIF counters to unit histories.







Froonp -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/19/2006 3:34:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Short question:
Are MWIF Chinese non divisional normal INF units Corps (XXX) or Army sized (XXXX)???
According to Schodts' WIFFE counter webside, they are Army sized. Besides there are corps sized CAV, MTN, MOT, Mech, Para.
http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm
According to the unit picture in post 42 of the MWIF thread (unit descriptions) they are Corps sized.
For doing unit write ups I should know this, for linking MWIF counters to unit histories.

What is displayed at http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm are scans of the real counters, so this is the truth.

So, the units in MWiF are wrong, and should be corrected if possible (I volunteer to do that if necessary). Some are Armies, and some are Corps.

Steve, is it possible to make non DIV MWiF units Army sized ? (with 4 "X").



wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/19/2006 3:40:16 PM)

BTW: Checked WIFFE National Chinese OOB as a whole:

2 HQ, 24 Armies/Corps (including Warlords, Mil), 7 Div, 4 Arty Div
According to rule commentaries each Chinese Army (Corps??) equals 10 divisions. So that would probably ammount to 251 divisions + 2 HQs.

In the index of "Hsu Long-hsuen et. al., The histoy of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-45)", the following Chinese Divs are listed:

198 infantry divisions (No. 1-55, 57-96, 98-149, 151-200, 207)
2 honor. divisions (No 1-2)
2 temporary divisions (No. 1-2)
52 prov. divisions (No.1-6, 10-17, 19-26, 28-29, 31, 33, 35-55, 58-59, 61-62, 64)
11 reserve divisons (No. 1-11)
37 new divisions (No. 1-4, 6-16, 19-23, 25-26, 28, 30-32, 34-39, 42-46)
12 cavalry divisons (No. 1-12)
2 prov. cavalry divisions (No. 1-2)
8 new cavalry divisions (No. 1-8)
1 temporary cavalry division (No.?)
1 training division (No.?)

= 326 divsions

(Note that for example there existed infantry divisions and new divisions with the same divisional number at the same time, although I don't know if this was always the case)

Finally the Communist forces mentioned in the book should be substracted:

2 divisions (New 4th Army)
3-6 divisions (8th Route Army: the total of six is mentioned, but also a total of 3 divisions: the 115th ,120th and 129th divsions).

= lets say 10 divisions

That would ammount to up to 316 National Chinese Divsions altogether.

So if playtesting shows the need of more National Chinese units, according to the WIF ten-division-formula for Chinese corps/armies probably up to six more counters historically could be warranted.




wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/19/2006 3:49:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Short question:
Are MWIF Chinese non divisional normal INF units Corps (XXX) or Army sized (XXXX)???
According to Schodts' WIFFE counter webside, they are Army sized. Besides there are corps sized CAV, MTN, MOT, Mech, Para.
http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm
According to the unit picture in post 42 of the MWIF thread (unit descriptions) they are Corps sized.
For doing unit write ups I should know this, for linking MWIF counters to unit histories.

What is displayed at http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm are scans of the real counters, so this is the truth.

So, the units in MWiF are wrong, and should be corrected if possible (I volunteer to do that if necessary). Some are Armies, and some are Corps.

Steve, is it possible to make non DIV MWiF units Army sized ? (with 4 "X").


As I read the MWIF Land unit list (10/16/2006), it differenciates only between Divs (1) and non-Divs (0), with 0 and 1 being the last number in each row. But some 0-units, like Liberian army are depicted as army (XXXX), some like Chinese normal INF as corps (XXX)?!



trees -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/19/2006 4:47:42 PM)

Some of the cardboard WiF corps/army distinctions are deliberate. The Russians grouped infantry divisions into 'armies', while cavalry units were designated 'corps'. From my limited readings on China I can't recall them using 'corps' (at all?), groups of infantry divisions were part of 'armies'. How China organized their specialist forces would be the question. But then they may never have deployed massed cavalry beyond a divisional size???



wosung -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/19/2006 6:34:39 PM)

According to the index in Hsü, (National) Chinese units consisted of:

100 corps (No.1-100),
4 prov. corps (No. 1-3, 9),
2 route corps (No. 2, 19),
8 new corps (No. 1-8, there within New 4th Corps = Communist New 4th Army  in National Chinese nomenclature),
6 cavalry corps (No. 1-6).

According to some, obviously wrong, sources  National Chinese Army didn't use corps at all.

Apart from the independend used ones, these 120 corps were organized  in:

18 armies (No. 1-3, 8, 13-17,  19-21, 27, 29, 32, 37 + 19th and 26th Route Army) and
39 army groups, or group armies (No. 1-39, 40, with the 18th army group equals the Communist 8th Route Army in National Chinese parlance).

AFIK Russian Red Army used cavalry corps, sometimes with other units in cavalry-mechanized groups. Rifle divisions sometimes also were grouped in corps but mostly in armies. Beginning in 1942 tanks were also formed in tank corps (with brigades, not regiments), equal a German or Wally panzer/armoured division. There were even a number of artillery corps. In red army  many OOB reforms and experiments around command and administrative issues took place during the war to maximize combat effectiveness.

Regards







Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land (11/19/2006 7:13:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
Short question:
Are MWIF Chinese non divisional normal INF units Corps (XXX) or Army sized (XXXX)???
According to Schodts' WIFFE counter webside, they are Army sized. Besides there are corps sized CAV, MTN, MOT, Mech, Para.
http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm
According to the unit picture in post 42 of the MWIF thread (unit descriptions) they are Corps sized.
For doing unit write ups I should know this, for linking MWIF counters to unit histories.

What is displayed at http://users.ats.dk/jsp/wif.htm are scans of the real counters, so this is the truth.

So, the units in MWiF are wrong, and should be corrected if possible (I volunteer to do that if necessary). Some are Armies, and some are Corps.

Steve, is it possible to make non DIV MWiF units Army sized ? (with 4 "X").


Currently the designation of army versus corp for units is:

- all HQ are Army groups XXXXX
- all divisions are divisions XX (duh)
- corps XXX versus army XXXX is taken from the country data (SU, MI, MA). File structure shown below; not part of GA.

I believe all special unit infantry units (para, mountain, etc.) are corps, but I would have to look that up in the code. You could simply look at the review of units form to confirm that.

So presently, I think this is in the 'map' data, since it concerns countries. [Not my data format design.]

==========
Governed areas:
- ID, name, parent ID, starting controlling country ID, center hex (row, column), Europe, Africa, Asia, Pacific, America (all boolean), # of cities and ports, conqueror ID, current controlling county ID, whether it has hexes, last city/port captured ID.

Sub-countries:
- Same as governed areas, plus:
3 letter name abbreviation, Partisan controller ID, force pool ID, unit color, icon color, land NATO outline color, land NATO interior color, strength text color, unit size color, letter/division color, outline elite flag, infantry armies/not corps, armor armies/not corps, partisans, partisans chance, partisans active, convoy points, contested, garrison, partisans count

Minor countries:
- Same as sub countries, plus:
Capital (Column, Row), Neutral this year

Major countries:
- Same as minor countries.
===========================



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