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Honda -> Anyone know... (12/5/2006 12:01:24 AM)

...what happens with Australian reinforcements once Sydney is captured?




Halsey -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 2:01:50 AM)

The same as at Karachi.[;)]

Nada, until it's recaptured.
Add it to the gamey strategies.




Honda -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 2:57:16 AM)

If so, taking Tokio is gamey too! Karachi is a different matter: edge od map issue, Britain's ability to stage from somewhere else...But Sydney has none of those issues. And what does it take to defend Sydney. One div in an urban hex with 9 fort from the onset. Come on...[8|]
I can't belive it. I don't go for Karachi although I can because it's gamey and then end up being called gamey for doing the same to Sydney...man what a drag. Than it's gamey for Allies to progress faster then historical[:'(]

Back to my question. If the same thing happens in Sydney as in Karachi, what actualy happens in Karachi.
Are reinforcements frozen or lost if on arrival date the base is out of allied hands?




RUPD3658 -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 3:50:07 AM)

Check the manual under reinforcements. They may arrive at another Australian base (I am thinking Melbourne for some reason).

Even if Karachi is taken reinforcements will arive at Bombay or Colombo IIRC.




RUPD3658 -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 3:51:31 AM)

quote:

Back to my question. If the same thing happens in Sydney as in Karachi, what actualy happens in Karachi.
Are reinforcements frozen or lost if on arrival date the base is out of allied hands?


The reinforcements are in limbo until they have a base to arrive at. If they do not arrive in 1 year they are gone for good.




Halsey -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 4:08:40 AM)

Any reinforcement base that is taken IS gamey.

Go ahead and play a flawed design mechanics issue if you want.
Better let your PBEM partner know that's the way you play.
That way you can join jagdfluger in the way that he wins games.
The other side just quits.

Some victory.[:D]

If Tokyo falls, then by that time the game is over anyway.[;)]




kkoovvoo -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 10:48:30 AM)

Have anyone tried to take Sidney?

Because when my opponent conquered Bataan very early in our game, 2 PA divisions, who were scheduled to arrive to Bataan arrived to San Francisco instead!  Under USAFFE restricted command [:D]





Rainerle -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 11:06:37 AM)

Sorry, but whats so gamey about the stopped reinforcements if the australian heartland is conquered ? Just where should those divisions come from ? Who's gonna equip and feed them ?




Honda -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 1:33:07 PM)

No please, it's gamey...[:-]

If someone takes Tokio in '43, it that gamey?
Sorry, but I belive I outplayed my opponent in a fashion that is anything but gamey. I can't belive I'm defending myself, but here...I had 8(!) IJA divs preparing for Sydney 3 months doing nothing in the meantime. I invaded east India to conceal a major operation on the other side of the world. I lost 3 CVs (2 sunk) for the operation and went ahead anyway. I had to sail many days in hostile waters avoiding detection, and when i finally arrived my whole strategy could have been flawed by just 1 or 2 divs. C'mon man!!!




pauk -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 2:38:01 PM)

Honda - The Gamey Man![:D] I'm must admit i like that[8D]

This is how it starts... you post a simple question and you are going to be accused and attacked about being gamey instead answering your question....

Soon this thread will be 5 pages long, full of wicked and twisted logic, proving you are nothing than a gamey boy and even lier....[:'(]... you may even found quotes from William Sheakspire (just to show how original poster is smart and well educated)

Perhaps now you know how i feels[:'(][;)] (waited for this moment so loooong[;)])

good luck!





Terminus -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 3:05:28 PM)

No, you're the gamey boy...[:'(] Stop making yourself out to be some sort of victim...




Speedysteve -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 3:26:39 PM)

Exactly T.  Pauk's a dumbass[:'(]




treespider -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 3:30:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

No please, it's gamey...[:-]

If someone takes Tokio in '43, it that gamey?
Sorry, but I belive I outplayed my opponent in a fashion that is anything but gamey. I can't belive I'm defending myself, but here...I had 8(!) IJA divs preparing for Sydney 3 months doing nothing in the meantime. I invaded east India to conceal a major operation on the other side of the world. I lost 3 CVs (2 sunk) for the operation and went ahead anyway. I had to sail many days in hostile waters avoiding detection, and when i finally arrived my whole strategy could have been flawed by just 1 or 2 divs. C'mon man!!!




I would consider the move gamey if in order to accomplish the mission you by-passed Pt. Moresby, Rabaul and the Solomons....IRL no non-lunatic commander would insert a substantial force a thosand miles behind the "front" with tno supporting base and the prospect of reinforcement being slim. If that were the case why did the Allies take their sweet time island hopping in the Pacific...and not just jump right into the home islands? The game mechanics allow for extremely long range operations that are not realistic....so if one takes advantage of those game mechanics to procure an advantage then IMO they could be called gamey.

I would also consider the move gamey if it was done purely on the notion that if you took Sydney all of the Australian reinforcements would stop...IRL the Australians would arrive at Melbourne or Brisbane or any number of other bases.

Is the fact that you initiated operations in India a mitigating factor..IMO...No, if you took advantage of the game mechanics to launch an unrealistic long range invasion to take advantage of another game mechanic that would unrealistically deny the Australians reinforcements.









Honda -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 3:31:11 PM)

Stop hijacking my thread! If anyone is to be called dumbass in here I demand it to be me!




Speedysteve -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 3:35:48 PM)

Dumbass..........




Andrew Brown -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 4:15:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

...what happens with Australian reinforcements once Sydney is captured?




My understanding is that the reinforcements will arrive in Melbourne, as per page 198 of the manual (yes, I know, one shouldn't rely on the manual!).




pauk -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 4:34:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Exactly T.  Pauk's a dumbass[:'(]



I'm dumbass....[:D]... now what?[;)][:'(]




RevRick -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 4:36:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

No please, it's gamey...[:-]

If someone takes Tokio in '43, it that gamey?
Sorry, but I belive I outplayed my opponent in a fashion that is anything but gamey. I can't belive I'm defending myself, but here...I had 8(!) IJA divs preparing for Sydney 3 months doing nothing in the meantime. I invaded east India to conceal a major operation on the other side of the world. I lost 3 CVs (2 sunk) for the operation and went ahead anyway. I had to sail many days in hostile waters avoiding detection, and when i finally arrived my whole strategy could have been flawed by just 1 or 2 divs. C'mon man!!!



If the Allies take Tokyo in '43 by sinking the KB, wiping out the bases in the way, and hitting with enough SUSTAINABLE (as in, keeping it supplied) force to take it because there is nothing to interfere with the flow of supplies - yes. If it is an attack in which those conditions are not met (KB active and afloat, Truk, Tarawa,Kwajalein, the Marianas, New Guinea, the PI still in Japanese hands and not menaced by much more than holding forces at best) and there is no defense in the HI to speak of - yes that is gamey because no one who was in command of a real force for any nation would leave themselves that exposed to the loss of a landing force because they were cut of and unsupplied.

If you drop 8 divisions out of the blue on Sydney, that would not conquer Australia. I would, undoubtedly garner attention for all the other cities in the country, and - unless you had taken New Caladonia, the NE coast of Australia, neutralized any air force which could interdict, and had no viable Naval Forces which could break your supply line (No CVs in particular), and had eliminated the sub threat, you would wind up with a large force, representing a substantial part of your nations capital investment, stranded and out of supply on an enemy held continent. The same with Karachi. If the Indian Subcontinent has been captured in the process, then good on you. If you jump to Karachi ignoring everything else and leave your rear, and both flanks open to any form of attack which can threaten your supply base (home) and your supply train then you are playing in a fashion which would have got you kicked out of any military training school in the world worth its salt. In other words, employing any game mechanic which is instituted to represent the rest of the world to win the game by what is obviously an artificial means is unsupportable in anything other than a misapplication of the mechanical practice of the game, and, IMO, unethical in the extreme.




treespider -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 5:04:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

No please, it's gamey...[:-]

If someone takes Tokio in '43, it that gamey?
Sorry, but I belive I outplayed my opponent in a fashion that is anything but gamey. I can't belive I'm defending myself, but here...I had 8(!) IJA divs preparing for Sydney 3 months doing nothing in the meantime. I invaded east India to conceal a major operation on the other side of the world. I lost 3 CVs (2 sunk) for the operation and went ahead anyway. I had to sail many days in hostile waters avoiding detection, and when i finally arrived my whole strategy could have been flawed by just 1 or 2 divs. C'mon man!!!



If the Allies take Tokyo in '43 by sinking the KB, wiping out the bases in the way, and hitting with enough SUSTAINABLE (as in, keeping it supplied) force to take it because there is nothing to interfere with the flow of supplies - yes. If it is an attack in which those conditions are not met (KB active and afloat, Truk, Tarawa,Kwajalein, the Marianas, New Guinea, the PI still in Japanese hands and not menaced by much more than holding forces at best) and there is no defense in the HI to speak of - yes that is gamey because no one who was in command of a real force for any nation would leave themselves that exposed to the loss of a landing force because they were cut of and unsupplied.

If you drop 8 divisions out of the blue on Sydney, that would not conquer Australia. I would, undoubtedly garner attention for all the other cities in the country, and - unless you had taken New Caladonia, the NE coast of Australia, neutralized any air force which could interdict, and had no viable Naval Forces which could break your supply line (No CVs in particular), and had eliminated the sub threat, you would wind up with a large force, representing a substantial part of your nations capital investment, stranded and out of supply on an enemy held continent. The same with Karachi. If the Indian Subcontinent has been captured in the process, then good on you. If you jump to Karachi ignoring everything else and leave your rear, and both flanks open to any form of attack which can threaten your supply base (home) and your supply train then you are playing in a fashion which would have got you kicked out of any military training school in the world worth its salt. In other words, employing any game mechanic which is instituted to represent the rest of the world to win the game by what is obviously an artificial means is unsupportable in anything other than a misapplication of the mechanical practice of the game, and, IMO, unethical in the extreme.


Echo....Echo

Hello....Hello

[;)]....[;)]




Honda -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 7:04:11 PM)

Am I speaking in some strange language? I didnt go for Karachi because of all the reasons above. But I don't see Sydney qualifying as such as it's not edge of the map area.
and BTW allies have lost 6 CVs, PH BBs n ot sunk but damaged, 30+ CA/CL sunk...again c'mon...And even if so much stuff wasn't sunk so what? It's my fault enemy isn't guarding is rear. I can't belive this...




treespider -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 7:45:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

Am I speaking in some strange language? I didnt go for Karachi because of all the reasons above. But I don't see Sydney qualifying as such as it's not edge of the map area.
and BTW allies have lost 6 CVs, PH BBs n ot sunk but damaged, 30+ CA/CL sunk...again c'mon...And even if so much stuff wasn't sunk so what? It's my fault enemy isn't guarding is rear. I can't belive this...



I'd say it was an excellent game move on your part! Well done!

The Allied player should not have left Sydney undefended and you were able to place 8 divisions into Sydney.

IRL now that you have occupied Sydney how do you subdue the rest of the country? Wouldn't the Australians raise units elsewhere?

IRL How do you insure that enough supply arrives to feed and arm the 8 divisions to enable you to subdue the rest of the country? How do you unload the ships carrying all of those supplies if the port facilities at Sydney were damaged? Where do you store all of those supplies to support the eight divisions? How long would that mountain of supplies remain uncontaminated and usable? How vulnerable would that mountain of supplies be to air attack?




Charbroiled -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 7:45:59 PM)

These arguments about taking Sydney or Karachi being gamey are all relevant to the players involved and should not be label as being gamey is ALL cases.

One thing this game does not reflect is the political aspect of the game. If the Japanese were able to take Karachi, would the British remain a presence in India? Maybe, maybe not. it never happened IRL, so who is to say? Britian might have felt that their foothold in India was too unstable and may have even started withdrawing troop, let alone contiue reinforements. Same thing with Australia. If ANY base was taken in Australia, then they might have negotiated peace with the Japanese and withdrawn from the war.




treespider -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 7:52:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

These arguments about taking Sydney or Karachi being gamey are all relevant to the players involved and should not be label as being gamey is ALL cases.

One thing this game does not reflect is the political aspect of the game. If the Japanese were able to take Karachi, would the British remain a presence in India? Maybe, maybe not. it never happened IRL, so who is to say? Britian might have felt that their foothold in India was too unstable and may have even started withdrawing troop, let alone contiue reinforements. Same thing with Australia. If ANY base was taken in Australia, then they might have negotiated peace with the Japanese and withdrawn from the war.


I agree ... I don't have a problem with the Japanese taking Karachi and forcing the British from India...assuming they have established bases to protect their flanks..ie occupied Sri Lanka and perhaps the Calcutta area.

That is light years from loading the kitchen sink into one or two TF and sailing out into the middle of the Indian Ocean to come into Karachi and India from the backdoor.

Likewise I don't have a problem with the Japanese forcing the Aussies out of the game.

Its not the result that concerns me... it is the means used to achieve the result.




Dino -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 8:30:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled

If ANY base was taken in Australia, then they might have negotiated peace with the Japanese and withdrawn from the war.


Aussies??? [X(] ... You've got to be kidding. [:-]

The way the game is now (accordin to the manual), Japan has to take (and hold) Sydney AND Melbourne to stop reinforcements in Australia.

My feeling is that they should add some more alternative ports of arrival (Brisbane, Perth...?) which would make this "gaminess" issue obsolete.

India is a different story.




Rainerle -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 9:00:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino



Aussies??? [X(] ... You've got to be kidding. [:-]

The way the game is now (accordin to the manual), Japan has to take (and hold) Sydney AND Melbourne to stop reinforcements in Australia.

My feeling is that they should add some more alternative ports of arrival (Brisbane, Perth...?) which would make this "gaminess" issue obsolete.



Hi,

there is no gaminess, if you want to keep those citys protect them (like it was done in real life). If you don't live with the results.




Dino -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 9:20:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainerle

...there is no gaminess...


There is, however, a "gaminess issue", or people wouldn't be discussing it...

Personally, I'm a lunatic. [;)] When I ask for restrictions, it's more a case of "Somebody stop me, please!" [:D]




rtrapasso -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 9:28:24 PM)

quote:

there is no gaminess, if you want to keep those citys protect them (like it was done in real life).



Yes, it was well known that the Australians constantly were on the guard for 8 divisions surprise attacks from the sea from the Japanese and the huge sealift capacity... [8|]




treespider -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 9:32:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

there is no gaminess, if you want to keep those citys protect them (like it was done in real life).



Yes, it was well known that the Australians constantly were on the guard for 8 divisions surprise attacks from the sea from the Japanese and the huge sealift capacity... [8|]



I remember playing Third Reich once and the game ended after turn one...the Allied player invaded a beach in Northern Germany and was somehow able to occupy Berlin on the first turn...that was about twenty years ago so my memory of the incident is rather vague.







rtrapasso -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 9:38:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

there is no gaminess, if you want to keep those citys protect them (like it was done in real life).



Yes, it was well known that the Australians constantly were on the guard for 8 divisions surprise attacks from the sea from the Japanese and the huge sealift capacity... [8|]



I remember playing Third Reich once and the game ended after turn one...the Allied player invaded a beach in Northern Germany and was somehow able to occupy Berlin on the first turn...that was about twenty years ago so my memory of the incident is rather vague.




Probably some game maker decided Berlin was a coastal hex...[X(] [8|] [:'(]




Nemo121 -> RE: Anyone know... (12/5/2006 9:47:46 PM)

quote:

I would consider the move gamey if in order to accomplish the mission you by-passed Pt. Moresby, Rabaul and the Solomons....IRL no non-lunatic commander would insert a substantial force a thosand miles behind the "front" with tno supporting base and the prospect of reinforcement being slim.


Seems like a valid strategem to me. Bypass the front-line strength and hit the weak but vital rear areas without which the front lines must wither and falter. Let's see which lunatic commander's did similar things in recent history --- the Germans in WW2, the Soviets in WW2 ( and with the Operational Manoeuvre Group this was also their doctrine if the Cold War ever became hot), Schwarzkopf during the first Gulf War --- Hmm, seems like a valid strategem to me and one which a lot of people would like to bitch about if they hadn't prepared for it. If it wasn't a risk then the Allies wouldn't have tied down multiple divisions guarding rear area bases in real life. They committed these units to garrison duty precisely because in war ANYTHING is possible. If players don't take the same precautions then they deserve to be punished for their lassitude.

The Japanese player capitalising on an Allied error isn't gamey. It is just good play. The Allied player making the error is simply poor judgement.


FWIW the same applies to the Allies landing several divisions at Tokyo in 42 or 43. If the Japanese player is stupid enough not to garrison his territories and the Allied player mounts a landing then fair dues to him. Banning things outright instead of forcing player's to take the necessary and historical countermeasures ( garrisons) simply acts to cover up for poor play.




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