Steel Shield *?spoilers?* (Full Version)

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renwor -> Steel Shield *?spoilers?* (8/8/2000 8:35:00 PM)

Hi all, in case you haven't played Steel Shield yet I suggest you do it now! And return to the board fifty play hours later [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] Few notes: 1) Scenario THAT big makes the SPWAW quite new experience. There is even some "strategy" involved ... if you send your tanks to the wrong place, it takes several /many/ turns to get them back. 2) Anybody thinks airpower isn't powerful enough in SPWAW? Just give your airman 100 experience and 4.5inch rockets !!! Wow!!!! Just that they cannot tell Tiger from PzIV, but 1rocket = 1kill!!! Wow!!! And no, I am not complaining, those were MY planes ! And I didn't tweak. Those 70/70 pilots perform as usuall. Also I would love if "Fast arty" did not include airstrikes... there are so rare and eyecandy!!! 3) To scenario designers: Late ariving reinforcements should NOT arrive in possible contested areas hexes, only on VERY EDGE OF MAP!!! By turn 10 few PZIV "beamed in" on the crossroad in Petite Trisigne ?sp?, even though I had infantry for few turns hidden in surrounding houses, all around. It was weird! I could almost see them materializing from thin air. "Mr. Spock, beam us in!!!" In turn 11 remaining GE crews would like to beam out, no doubt [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] 4.) STURMTIGERS !!! Muhahahahahaha..... I knew they would come !!! 5.) AI is SO stupid!!! Sending Nashorns in front of Stugs, KingTigers through woods, Sturmtigers without infantry, bombing for two turns with its all onboard arty strenght ONE FORGOTTEN .30 cal JEEP!!! In few weeks, when I forgot a bit about US possitions, I must try as gerrys, I believe it must be easy for human german side, though AI is reasonably better at defence.



Wild Bill -> (8/9/2000 1:26:00 PM)

Very good report, Renwor. I'm listening. Thanks...Sometimes hard to tell where you'll be at turn 10 in one like this [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



renwor -> (8/9/2000 5:14:00 PM)

Ok, so yesterday I finished this one. Weird thing is, that it's 40turns schedule, with many gerry reinforcment due after turn 20, but my game ended on 18th (or was it 19th) turn .. pitty. And yes, I know it's hard to say when people would be by turn 10, thats why I suggest that reinforcement should arrive at hexes where oposing force cannot be at the time, or at two or three hexes distance from the edge. In this scenario I guess I was lucky, to be at places where I wasn't expected to be at that time. But those Greyhounds are fast!!! Renwor



hhsohn -> (8/10/2000 3:47:00 AM)

was the German attack plan based on historical event? I've played on the American side, and I found the northwestern thrust on the lower map to be mildly pleasant/disconcerting, but all the northern thrusts were too weak and spread out. In fact, none of the v-hexes changed hands on the northern map. But if the attack was concentrated, I would've been very disturbed indeed, and possibly ignored the southern front... *hint, hint*



McGib -> (8/10/2000 4:43:00 AM)

Tried this one for a few turns, and found out something very interesting, You can kill a King Tiger with a 57mm!!!!!



Drake666 -> (8/10/2000 5:35:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by McGib: Tried this one for a few turns, and found out something very interesting, You can kill a King Tiger with a 57mm!!!!!
You can kill King Tigers with smaller guns then that. Have killed them with AT rifles before, once even with a frontal shot. But that tanks some luck.



Paul Vebber -> (8/10/2000 6:11:00 AM)

DId you "kill" it or get the crew to bail out? You shouldn't be able to "penetrate-kill" it with a ATR (and a 6lber has a lot more trouble with the right front armor :-) But if you hit something enough times the crew may eventually figure something bigger (or a pile of troopers) is close too, so you can't count a a heavy armored vehicle being *completely invulnerable* anymore.



Wild Bill -> (8/10/2000 6:40:00 AM)

Alas, the German attack was piecemeal, with remnants of four panzer divisions spending their last bit of fuel and energy in a final breakthrough attempt. It was too little too late. 10 days had passed since the beginning of Wacht Am Rhein and they were be squeezed and bled to death. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Drake666 -> (8/10/2000 7:12:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: DId you "kill" it or get the crew to bail out? You shouldn't be able to "penetrate-kill" it with a ATR (and a 6lber has a lot more trouble with the right front armor :-) But if you hit something enough times the crew may eventually figure something bigger (or a pile of troopers) is close too, so you can't count a a heavy armored vehicle being *completely invulnerable* anymore.
I destroyed it, but I was at one range in a building and I did not read the massage, never do. So I might have hit it on the top or something. It was not a assault do.



McGib -> (8/10/2000 9:20:00 AM)

My 57mm kill of a King Tiger was from about 3-4 hexes away and into the right side/right turret. Kill shot was about the 4th shot that turn.



Alex -> (8/10/2000 2:57:00 PM)

Talking about strange kills? well my panther (I think it was Panther G) was busted by a single shot from a 12,7mm ddsh russian heavy machine gun. It was at a range of 3-5 hexes cant remember exacly and it was a frontal shot. Now that was strange [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]. Didnt realy worry me much because I won so I didnt post it. But now I see strange things happen [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Alex



Scipio Africanus -> (8/11/2000 1:52:00 PM)

Speaking of nutty Tiger kills: I nailed one from the front with an M4A2 Sherman firing a 75mm L38 at 100 yards. Hit it through the Front hull at 114 pen/ 110 armor. It brewed up. I didn't know the 75 could do it from the front, but that was a good shell (a +10% for sure). I used a lot of smoke to get in close. This shows that many seem to over rate front turret armor when considering how effective a tank is (read: the Tiger is not invulnerable despite a lot of front turret iron) ------------------ Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus



Nikademus -> (8/11/2000 7:25:00 PM)

i'm in the middle of this scenerio right now myself. And already i've observed that my Tiger II "jinx" is still in full force. The first two incidents were understandable as two Konigstiger's appeared in their reinforcement hexes just after a platoon of 76mm Shermans rolled past. A short and very scary firefight ensued in which both Tigers got taken out with Side armor shots point blank with HVAP ammo. (one Sherman got toasted and another forced to bail) However four turns later the "Jinx" definately asserted itself with a medium range and high oblicity shot (had to be 70+ degrees) HVAP round struck a third Tiger's side turret and took out the whole tank. This used to happen to me all the time back in the SP-1 days.....spend a gagillion points on a section of Konigs and see them taken out by this quirky shot and that. Ok this time it was the AI that suffered it but still, even as the opponent i wince at the ease in which these huge and expensive beasts get taken out when i'm around the battlefield. I'm certain none of the destroyed Tiger's owner's had even made their first payment on them before driving them out of the dealer's lot ;-)



Paul Vebber -> (8/11/2000 8:08:00 PM)

I have the same Jinx when I play with Matildas in the Desert :-) THe angular relationships help keep this from happening nearly as much as it used too! but there is a random component to the angle determination or about +/- 15 degrees, to account for the fact the units move about a bit wihtin the hex. APCR at steep angles have a LOT of things going against them...but do "make it" occasionally. 12.7 wasting a Panther is quite odd? If the tank had taken some damage or had a poor crew repeating such hits can make the crew bail, but should not be able to kill... Did it brewed up? not just abandoned by the crew. Even "turret ring" none penetrating kills need warhead 3 and pen at least 1/4 of the turret bas armor. One thing that could be at work is the old "change one unit into another and it keeps the old armor". It might be worth while cycling through the units and making sure all the armor values are appropriate for the tank types? WB - have seen that old bug raise its head?



Wild Bill -> (8/11/2000 10:36:00 PM)

No, up unti now I have not seen it, Paul. But I'm going to check right now. I'll be back...WB I'm back. That bug is gone. I've never seen an MG do in a Tiger, kill it. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I have never seen it. ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games [This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited August 11, 2000).]



Rover -> (8/12/2000 1:29:00 AM)

Although I feel this is like asking Picasso to paint something differently... is there any way the owner of the scenario would consider changing the reinforcement hexes a la the prior discussion about edge entry points. This request is humbly submitted in light of the fact I'm always very impressed by the folks who put in the time to make the scenarios the great fun they are. I'd do it myself but believe I'll ruin the challenge of the scenario by seeing it in the editor.



Alex -> (8/14/2000 3:02:00 PM)

12.7 wasting a Panther is quite odd? If the tank had taken some damage or had a poor crew repeating such hits can make the crew bail, but should not be able to kill... Did it brewed up? not just abandoned by the crew. Even "turret ring" none penetrating kills need warhead 3 and pen at least 1/4 of the turret bas armor. The crew abandoned the tank but only after the tank was destroyed. The machine gun was the one mounted on an IS III i think. The tank missed with the main gun but hit with the machine gun. And that was the first time this has happened, it didnt happen again, so there is a possibility that I was very tired and it was a bad dream [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Alex



Voriax -> (8/14/2000 7:14:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alex: The crew abandoned the tank but only after the tank was destroyed. The machine gun was the one mounted on an IS III i think. The tank missed with the main gun but hit with the machine gun. And that was the first time this has happened, it didnt happen again, so there is a possibility that I was very tired and it was a bad dream [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Alex
Or if you got a top or bottom hit it's quite possible for a 12.7mm to kill a Panther. After all the top armour thickness is only 16 and the max penetration for the Russian DShK 12.7mm is 25. Voriax ps. Paul, how is the bottom armour determined? Same as top armour?



Wild Bill -> (8/14/2000 11:54:00 PM)

There were many "odd" kills during the war,...many [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] As long as the 12.7 does not become the official "Cat Killer" in the game, an occasional fluke of war is possible in that sense. I of course interpret destroyed not alway a flaming hulk, even thought it appears that way, but a tank no longer usable for whatever reason. It should be a very rare thing, though. Seeing it more than once or twice even in a battle of this size would raise some questions....Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Paul Vebber -> (8/15/2000 2:45:00 AM)

IT should be possible fo the MG to *rarely* cause a crew to bail out, more likely if its immobilized. THe top hit (given the heights in the game)would make an impossible angle for the MG to penetrate the top of the tank. THe bottom is a possible (though you would have to be within three hexes, the Panther moving m5m or more higher) bottom armor is assumed to be 1/4 the side armor. SO COncentrated MG fire on damaged or demrilized crews can make them bail - on a good day-but MGs should be able to penetrate a heavy tank only in the case of a bottom hit and good dice rools :-)



McGib -> (8/18/2000 10:21:00 AM)

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: THe top hit (given the heights in the game)would make an impossible angle for the MG to penetrate the top of the tank. THe bottom is a possible (though you would have to be within three hexes, the Panther moving m5m or more higher) bottom armor is assumed to be 1/4 the side armor. Paul, playing a pbem I had a staghound fire its 30 cal from 2 hexes away at an Achilles and hit bottom armour. My opponent told me two crew were killed and the remainder bailed(to be mowed down by said a/c and mg). Is this right? It does not sound right to me and my opponent thinks its odd but strange things do happen. ------------------ Ready Aye Ready



Paul Vebber -> (8/18/2000 12:26:00 PM)

THat is becasue of a bug where we used the top armor to be the bottom armor (OOPS - bad news for your open top Achilles ...) THis is fixed in ver3 where we use a fraction of the side armor instead...



Seth -> (8/18/2000 8:21:00 PM)

Speaking of open topped vehicles, why do vehicles with open turrets have no hull top armor? This makes a lot of the German armored cars much more vulnerable than they should be.



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