how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (Full Version)

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wobbly -> how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/24/2007 10:52:44 PM)

Gidday gents;

Being someone who thought they knew what they were doing when conducting an invasion, to the point of writing a step by step guideline as to how I do it, I find it ironic that I am completely stumped by a viable way to get around my current problem.

Just to set the scene I am playing as allies. It is late 43. We are playing Andrews Mod. Those unfamiliar to Andrews mod need to know these very important differences from the stock game:

Allied heavies are no longer heavy. They carry 6 500lb bombs. Two consecutive attacks of 110 'heavies' managed 30 casualties and a gun destroyed (plus a handfull of port and supply hits).
AAA is now effective - in fact flying at 6000ft is a recipe for disaster.

So, to the problem. How do you beat the CD gun/massive minefield defence?

I had a large TF of MSWs but the CD guns sunk every single one on the first turn of my invasion - adding other types to these TFs (for defence) just tends to sink them on the mines being swept. I had some in the invasion TFs (along with SCs, DDs and DEs for ASW) the CD guns sank them all when the troops landed.
I ran 3 bombardment runs with average results.
I conducted about 5 raids on the ports with the bombers but as you can see, I would need 100s of raids to have any effect. Since I am only invading Shortlands in late 43 I obviously don't have the time to do this and wait for the repair of the 1/3rd of bombers that get damaged each raid. This goes without saying that 100 raids would be like ringing up Tokyo and announcing your next target. You can only afford to do that in mid 44.

So, I can't destroy the CD emplacements from the air in enough time to finish the game before 1950. I can't sweep the minefields as the CD guns smoke my MSWs. And I can't bring in the invasion forces with the massive minefields lying in wait. This of course has not taken into account Miss Bettie and Nell - who are not the instant flamers of the standard addition any more. They are fantastically destructive planes. A sizable escort and it doesn't matter how many defensive fighters there are you wont engage them. I have shot down 50 escorting fighters and 2 - that's right 2 - attacking Betties (out of 80), this is a typical result. They have had their durability nerfed so that most make it home.
I have lost about 15 AKs, 6 APs, 12 MSWs, 8 SCs, 5 DDs, 3 DEs, 1 AV sunk and about 50 AKs and APs damaged in two turns of landings. Bar a few hits by Betties this has all been done by the CD gun regiment (a single one) and however many mines he has there. Even for the allies massive stocks I can't afford these losses.
Don't get me wrong - I actually like the nerfed air model - it does give the jap player a chance against the allied juggernaut but it has stumped me over this defensive combo.

Any ideas?



Andy Mac -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/24/2007 10:58:33 PM)

The lesson I have learned is do NOT use a seperate MSW TF or try to sweep in advance of the landings CD guns will sink every ship.

Use no less than 7 or 8 per 100 ship TF inside the TF and they do their job your transports will hit a few mines but the CA's or BB's in the invasion TF will take most of the flak

MSW only TF's will just lose you MSW's



BLurking -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/24/2007 10:59:16 PM)

You could always wait until 1950 [:D].

Where's my turn? I want to see more self-impalement...

Oh, and it's Nik's Mod w/ Andrews Map. The map is what's causing me such grief in China, Nik is the reason for your suffering in the Southwest Pacific.



Andy Mac -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/24/2007 11:02:45 PM)

You also need to raise the disruption on the units so you need to mix it up some ground attacks along with port attacks because these raise the disruption level of the units they hit

At least 1 CA in the TF and if possible a BB in the TF

Hmmm sorry just read the rest of the post heavies are not heavy any more dont know what to do !!!!



KDonovan -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/24/2007 11:12:37 PM)

Having just assualted an atoll with 5,000 mines (is that correct Tom?) and 2 CD-Rgts, i can tell you there is no easy solution.

In my case i earmarked 20 MSW's for the invasion. At the end of the battle 12 were sunk, 7 were damaged (mostly by CD-guns). Despite Surface raids, Betty raids, CD-guns, about 70-80% of my total ship losses and damaged ships were from Mines.

The best advice i can give, based on my recent experience, is using constant naval bombardments (escorts off) for 1-2 weeks, without MSW/DMS support and just take the Mine hits. Most Japanese mines are weak and won't sink anything bigger than a DD...even then it takes a couple hits. After you feel you've sufficently silenced the CD-guns with naval bombardments, then you can send in the troops. But make sure your MSW's are part of the transport TF and not in their own dedicated MSW TF's. While your MSW's will still be shot at in the transport TF, the CD-guns will spread there fire to other ships, instead of just concentrating on your valuable MSW's in they are in their own separate TF's

Hope that helps....you can read the last few pages of my AAR (Battle of New Jersey) to see how my Naval Bombardments faired against japanese mines.



RUPD3658 -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/24/2007 11:12:42 PM)

Put a few CAs in the transport TF. The CD guns will target these instead of the transports. The CA can absorb a lot of hits from CD guns (save the really big ones) with little to no effect.



timtom -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/24/2007 11:38:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

Put a few CAs in the transport TF. The CD guns will target these instead of the transports. The CA can absorb a lot of hits from CD guns (save the really big ones) with little to no effect.


Or BB's by fiddling a bit with TF -> TF tranfers. Not gamey at all IMO.

Of course you could just bypass Shortland and go for Bougainville :)



Nikademus -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 12:10:39 AM)

Put BB's in the invasion TF as well as cruisers....they make a huge difference against CD's, allowing the transports to land without getting shot to pieces.

Easiest way to do.....for the initial TF as "escort" mission....add ships, then change to Transport after sailing.



wobbly -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 12:56:17 AM)

Ha Brian - yeah sorry mate - it took me so long to wait for the AK (blah) has hit mine messages and then of course, when your Surface Combat TF and the dead eye dick on the Mutsu putting 16 inch rounds through all 3 of my bombardment BBs, well I didn't have enough time before I had to go to work. Maryland is in trouble by the way - very very nasty combat that one! Nice to see not a single Jap boat survive though.

Apologies to Nik as well - as Blurking (Brian) has stated we are using his mod and Andrews map.

yes guys, had CAs and CLs in the invasion forces (no BBs though - miss betty has put paid to that - one torp and they're out for 3 or so months)
Constant naval bombardments is a good way to go but at this stage of the war the combined fleet is still a mighty creature indeed. Brian and I have both paid heavily for repeating anything - obviously multiple bombardments on a base qualifies here. As also stated, in this mod, if you put enough fighters with a bomber strike the defending fighters barely touch the bombers, concentrating on the fighter escort. So miss Betty gets through and I just cannot afford to loose too many BBs either sunk or damaged. They take too long to repair.

The only thing I can conclude - in this mod anyway - is that there is no useful tactic other than brute force. You've got to take the hits. It just means that the allied juggernaut is a paper tiger. Loosing as many transports and small escorts as I have has to slow down my progress.
I suppose this has created the desired outcome though - the Japs will most certainly survive into 1946.

Anyway guys -thanks for the advice - a few diamonds there that may just help in the next invasions.



herwin -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 1:09:56 AM)

IRL, the US ran into this problem with Rabaul and decided to bypass it. (The resulting operation was called Cartwheel, or "Ring Around Rabaul".) I know about the Betties and Nells--IRL, the Japanese ran out of pilots after a while, so try a campaign of attrition.



BLurking -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 1:13:15 AM)

Didn't really want to commit that surface force, but I was getting so much amusement from the terror that those CD guns were visiting upon your invasion fleet - couldn't let you go and spoil the party before it's over. Too bad I had to do it in daylight, it's pretty rare to see an entire surface combat TF obliterated. Better that than the fate that awaits them later in the war, I'd just as soon lose them in honorable combat than sunk in port.

You're greatly underestimating the firepower that the Allies can bring to bear later in the war, trust me. I've had bases far better protected than this (there's 2 CD units there, not one - that special base force isn't one of the girly IJN units, it's got 5" batteries) completely obliterated in '44 and '45.
I still can't stop you in late '43, but I can sure try to make it hurt...



BLurking -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 1:13:56 AM)

Oops - double posted.



wobbly -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 1:14:52 AM)

Hi Herwin

yeah Brian is complaining about the pilot quality now - flak has been the killer rather than fighters in the stock game. He had a naval strike of about 110 betties and nells, against AKs and APs unloading, and only managed 7 torp strikes. So obviously the pilot crunch is starting to bite.

Recon tended to indicate that there was only 7 units in Shortlands and it is a very good base. It's not like I have scrimped on this operation: 4 divisions, 1 tank battalion, 2 marine raiders and oodles of support troops. He will not hold it for very long but as he has gleefully stated in emails - I am gonna pay!!

Obviously - it is the 'gonna pay' for every operation for something that costs him nothing (mines) that is a little difficult to take.



wobbly -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 1:20:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLurking

Didn't really want to commit that surface force, but I was getting so much amusement from the terror that those CD guns were visiting upon your invasion fleet - couldn't let you go and spoil the party before it's over. Too bad I had to do it in daylight, it's pretty rare to see an entire surface combat TF obliterated. Better that than the fate that awaits them later in the war, I'd just as soon lose them in honorable combat than sunk in port.

You're greatly underestimating the firepower that the Allies can bring to bear later in the war, trust me. I've had bases far better protected than this (there's 2 CD units there, not one - that special base force isn't one of the girly IJN units, it's got 5" batteries) completely obliterated in '44 and '45.
I still can't stop you in late '43, but I can sure try to make it hurt...


Yeah when you attacked during the day I thought "this will be fun - long range shelling and I have 3 BBs to your 1". However, your gun aimers were very capable...

No real complaining mate - just wondered if there was a better way to do things at this point in the war. It may be true that I haven't understood the power (of this fully operational battlestation) but I don't think you quite grasp the extent to which the allies have been nerfed. I have really had to rethink how to do things as your abililty to respond and static defences are formidable.

An enlightning point of this is: I just had to use P-39s as long range Cap over the invasion. The date is 10/43. Would you ever need to do that in the stock game?



BLurking -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 1:31:17 AM)

Yes, I'll admit I was somewhat surprised to see the P-39s - but you should be equally surprised that I'm forced to use Nicks as my Betty escorts (and they're crap, but at least don't use my valuable IJN pilots). Capable Zero units are becoming a very rare commodity. It always feels like your sucking it down worse than the other guy, but trust me - I'm living on the edge right now and you're bleeding me dry.

With no "Chinese Training Region", I think you'll find quite the power vacuum after what I've commited to this particular defense. In a couple of months you'll be back up to strength and I'll still be reeling.

I've still got to keep enough reserves for the future, and it's looking pretty bleak - no matter how it appears on your end...



tsimmonds -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 3:39:46 AM)

quote:

Yeah when you attacked during the day I thought "this will be fun - long range shelling and I have 3 BBs to your 1". However, your gun aimers were very capable...


Were your 3 BBs in an SCTF, or a Bombardment TF? A Bombardment TF gets unfavorable modifiers when in combat with an SCTF. In addition, surface combat in a base hex favors the owner of the base, especially if a naval HQ is present. And, as always, the TF leader is a factor.....

Note: all of the above is speculation based on observation.....



BLurking -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 3:47:33 AM)

His TFs were tasked for bombardment (I know, because they hit the base before I engaged him). So, ammo depletion was a factor - plus my very aggressive admiral stuck around for combat after combat after combat, until annihilated (one of his TFs had 2 BBs, and one was led by a singleton). Adm. Daigo, RIP - you served the Emperor well.

I lost all my ships that same day, he only had a couple of DDs sunk. But most of his ships are damaged, and that's gonna leave a mark...



tsimmonds -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 4:18:47 AM)

If he had had an SCTF present, chances are that you would not have engaged the bombardment TFs at all.



wobbly -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 4:55:42 AM)

Yep Brian's bang on the money. I did have a surface combat TF but had converted it to a bombardment TF the turn before. It retired to reload. The bombardment TFs had done this and were returning to unleash on the base again.
Bombardment TFs fired at the base and the Jap surface combat 'reacted' to their presence. This meant they were there in the day time. I don't know how much of the BB's ammo was expended against the fort but they used the rest up against the surface groups.
In the final attack his remnants - the Mutsu and 2 heavy cruisers engaged 5 DDs on ASW duty. The 3 big boys were dispatched with torps but still managed to damage 3 DDs with secondary armament.

It was a good move if he'd made it there at night (although my bombardment TFs would have full magazines). As it was, with an aggressive commander, it was suicide.

A suicide nicely offset by the hurt he laid on both TFs though.



RAM -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 5:16:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

If he had had an SCTF present, chances are that you would not have engaged the bombardment TFs at all.



If the attacking SCTF has an aggresive enough leader, and the first engagement vs the escorting SCTF is won by the attacking side, don't bet on it.

I know it first hand, when my PBEM opponent tried to land on Trinco and an american/british cruiser/DD fast SCTF led by a highly agressive leader (don't remember who, was american, suface ability around 65, agressiveness around 75,I put him in place on purpose) smashed through his escorting surface TF (Myoko and Haguro went to the bottom in that fight in exchange of one of my CAs Long-lanced to hell), and then proceeded to give the landing force the worse night of their (short) life engaging them three times in a row (last one was a very short fight with no hits, though). I caused more than 6000 casualties in the landing forces with that move,and damaged and sank quite a bit of ships. Of course, Trinco didn't fell.

Needless to say, the next morning the mini-KB kates blasted 2/3rds of the TF out of the water ;). But that was a calculated risk and the result was well worth it ;).



wobbly -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 5:27:44 AM)

Hi RAM

I've had this happen as well - it can be very nasty indeed.

As an addendum. I wouldn't be surprised if the bombardment TFs had reverted to SCTFs after bombarding. Can't say for sure of course



Ron Saueracker -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 4:05:12 PM)

What you need is a fantasy weapon to counter the utter silliness that is the CD model. I'd gamble on soap suds like the volume used in The Party with Peter Sellers.



BLurking -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 4:20:19 PM)

Ron,

I agree that the CD units are overmodelled, but there should also be a much heavier penalty for using cargo ships as assault shipping. In this case CD units fit the bill. I'd much rather have the abilities of regular combat transports ramped up vs. CD guns and let the AKs catch hell if trying to unload on a hostile beach...



Ron Saueracker -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 4:25:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BLurking

Ron,

I agree that the CD units are overmodelled, but there should also be a much heavier penalty for using cargo ships as assault shipping. In this case CD units fit the bill. I'd much rather have the abilities of regular combat transports ramped up vs. CD guns and let the AKs catch hell if trying to unload on a hostile beach...


Two wrongs do make a right in this case then.[:)]



Yamato hugger -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 7:54:23 PM)

Actually it isnt hard at all, if you have patience. You have to perform several steps:

1) Neutralize the CD guns. How? Air bombardment of port.

2) Continue to neutralize the CD guns with step 1 and use a BB bombardment (turn escorts fire off) force

3) Sweep mines continuing steps 1 and 2 while doing so

4) after mines are swept, land the troops

This process can take a week or more depending on the numbers of shore guns / mines. But it is reasonably safe as long as you have air surpremacy.



herwin -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 8:18:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Actually it isnt hard at all, if you have patience. You have to perform several steps:

1) Neutralize the CD guns. How? Air bombardment of port.

2) Continue to neutralize the CD guns with step 1 and use a BB bombardment (turn escorts fire off) force

3) Sweep mines continuing steps 1 and 2 while doing so

4) after mines are swept, land the troops

This process can take a week or more depending on the numbers of shore guns / mines. But it is reasonably safe as long as you have air surpremacy.


The air supremacy is probably key. The only place the US invaded without air supremacy was Guadalcanal, and that was--ah--educational. The air supremacy also means the minefields wither away.



rtrapasso -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 8:21:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Actually it isnt hard at all, if you have patience. You have to perform several steps:

1) Neutralize the CD guns. How? Air bombardment of port.

2) Continue to neutralize the CD guns with step 1 and use a BB bombardment (turn escorts fire off) force

3) Sweep mines continuing steps 1 and 2 while doing so

4) after mines are swept, land the troops

This process can take a week or more depending on the numbers of shore guns / mines. But it is reasonably safe as long as you have air surpremacy.


The air supremacy is probably key. The only place the US invaded without air supremacy was Guadalcanal, and that was--ah--educational. The air supremacy also means the minefields wither away.


See his original post - in this mod, airpower is sorta nerfed - and damaging the CD units by air is problematic.



Mike Solli -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 8:28:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Actually it isnt hard at all, if you have patience. You have to perform several steps:

1) Neutralize the CD guns. How? Air bombardment of port.

2) Continue to neutralize the CD guns with step 1 and use a BB bombardment (turn escorts fire off) force

3) Sweep mines continuing steps 1 and 2 while doing so

4) after mines are swept, land the troops

This process can take a week or more depending on the numbers of shore guns / mines. But it is reasonably safe as long as you have air surpremacy.


The air supremacy is probably key. The only place the US invaded without air supremacy was Guadalcanal, and that was--ah--educational. The air supremacy also means the minefields wither away.


If left to wither on the vine, a minefield with 5000 mines will drop to 11 mines after 120 days.



Feinder -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 10:58:41 PM)

How are you doing on recon?

Recon (real recon, by "recon" type units, F-5s) will substantially raise the detection level, which will significantly raise the amount of damage of your bombers and bombardments.

Using just bombers and PBYs for recon is ok if that’s all you have (in which case, recon the target from PBYs from multiple bases, to get more over-flights).  But if you’ve got a sqdn of F-5s, they’ll make a huge difference in the detection level (which makes a huge difference in the damage you do).
 
F-5s will keep the DL pegged at 10 (each F-5 flight = +4 DL).  Whereas PBYs can usually only keep the DL at around 3 or 4 (each successfully PBY flight = +1).
 
-F-



tabpub -> RE: how do you beat the CD gun/minefield combo? (1/25/2007 11:16:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Actually it isnt hard at all, if you have patience. You have to perform several steps:

1) Neutralize the CD guns. How? Air bombardment of port.

2) Continue to neutralize the CD guns with step 1 and use a BB bombardment (turn escorts fire off) force

3) Sweep mines continuing steps 1 and 2 while doing so

4) after mines are swept, land the troops

This process can take a week or more depending on the numbers of shore guns / mines. But it is reasonably safe as long as you have air surpremacy.


The air supremacy is probably key. The only place the US invaded without air supremacy was Guadalcanal, and that was--ah--educational. The air supremacy also means the minefields wither away.


If left to wither on the vine, a minefield with 5000 mines will drop to 11 mines after 120 days.

Mike:
What reduction percent are you using? At 1% (for being a friendly base minefield) at 120 days the field is still over 1500. Unless I remember the factors wrong, you were apparently using 5% as the percent reduction per day.



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