You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (Full Version)

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jpinard -> You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 5:54:44 AM)

Yikes.. so far 9 out of 10 people who would have purchased this (on the forums I visit), have said they won't buy it because $39.99 for DD or $49.99 boxed is way too much for a game this old. Between you and Shrapnelgames - I've got to say you do a lot to shoot yourselves in the foot. Sometimes you've got to look at what it is (remake of a classic game) and realize asking for $25-$30 per copy would net you 5x-10x the number of sales vs. putting it in the premium pc price range.

At some point you need to expand your customer base instead of trying to chrge max dollars possible from the same people over and over again.

Just a word of advice. And no, neither will I be purchasing this (at that price)... even though it's my favorite of the CC series.



Hertston -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 9:50:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard

Sometimes you've got to look at what it is (remake of a classic game) and realize asking for $25-$30 per copy would net you 5x-10x the number of sales vs. putting it in the premium pc price range.


We've been here before. That price would be lucky to net 1.5x the sales let alone your fantasy figure; the market just doesn't work like that. Has the thought occurred that Matrix might know their own market rather better than you?

I'm not sure what age has to do with anything, although obviously owning CC3 already would be a factor. A game is either good enough to justify the money or it isn't. It is indeed a classic that isn't available anywhere else, unless you fancy paying three times as much on e-Bay for the original CC3.



jpinard -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 10:43:41 AM)

I can only report what I see, and that's what I see right now. I've also seen several people who did purchase it and say it's not worth a full $40.00. Less than that - probably, but not full box price.

Most of the people who'd be interested in this are people who've already played CC (and probably own many of the series). Sure, maybe Matrix did a poll to find out how many people missed out on CC3 and would pay full price to get it now. But you know... I bet that didn't happen.

I also haven't seen a single mention about better or enhanced AI. Seems like there's really not a lot there for single player gamers who already have access to loads of excellent mods.



Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 12:48:09 PM)

Hi There,

Speaking for the developers here. You have to remember that Atomic is dead (simply a brand name now) and that the ONLY thing that is going to happen for the CC seroes further development is going to be from us. We are not sadly independently wealthy (sadly) and need to fund the development of CC6. With the release instead of simply putting out CC3 with zero work, we did as much as we could and enhanced added as much as we could.

You speak of mods, who has created these mods? Who has kept these mods online for 10 years or more? Bandwidth is not free and all of the work that the modders have done (alot of whom are involved in Simtek) has taken thousands of man hours. CSO has online:

Downloads Online: 3845
Files Downloaded: 1,537,368 (Yes thats One Million Five Hundred Thousand +)
File's in GB: 35.4

There is much that we want to do for CC6, as Simtek, without funds this will not happen. No other company is going to make a CC series now, its not in companies like UBI/EA/MS etc to do so. We also want to move the series forward to CC7. No company of VC is going to come along and give a large sum of money to develop the series where it can go.If you think that over the years CSO has done something useful and that Simtek is doing the same now with the CC series for the future, then maybe the price may not seem so steep. If on the other hand you feel that it should all be for free and don't want to see CC in the future you know the choice. This is simple ecenomics and after paying for the licence to use CC we have to make enough to make the above possible. I am sure many games from the past are working on the same principle as the market has changed drastically since the "good ole days" making many this much harder to realise than in the past. Ultimately both the re-releases and the future of CC rests with all of you, the CC buyers and the community, its as simple as that.

Cheers - Sulla



Stilllord -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 12:54:22 PM)

Personally I have not got any issues with the pricing of this game, I was more then happy to hand over $40 for this game since I’m very grateful that someone has taken the initiative to resurrect the CC games. I have the original CC3 so I guess I could have continued to play that instead of buying COI, but if I buy COI for $40 then I might be able to play a completely new CC game in a few months.

I think that if you are a fan of the CC series then you should support the developer and the publisher for making the effort to release COI, im sure that if they wanted to make loads of money they could have created a mediocre FPS and hyped it so that the sales would go up, but instead they listen to the community and did COI.



Terl -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 2:02:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard
Yikes.. so far 9 out of 10 people who would have purchased this (on the forums I visit), have said they won't buy it because $39.99 for DD or $49.99 boxed is way too much for a game this old.


Not necessarily a very valid statistical sample. Hmmm, if I mosey on over to, say for example, wild tangent games forums and ask if they would buy matrix games I could probably get 10 out of 10 against and then rail against Matrix. Yes, I used a hyperbole here just to demonstrate my point.

quote:

Between you and Shrapnelgames - I've got to say you do a lot to shoot yourselves in the foot. Sometimes you've got to look at what it is (remake of a classic game) and realize asking for $25-$30 per copy would net you 5x-10x the number of sales vs. putting it in the premium pc price range.


Interesting conclusions from your unrealistic sampling above? Where do you get five to ten times the sales? Shooting from the hip or just rolling dice? I think Matrix and Shrapnel are more experienced with pricing models than you or I. I am amazed that so many folks claim that 5 to 10 times more sales if you drop the price.

quote:

At some point you need to expand your customer base instead of trying to chrge max dollars possible from the same people over and over again.


The customer base expands because we gamers spread the word. I know I am extremely pleased with Matrix and I was delighted when I found them as wargames can be difficult to find--especially quality games. And, yes, I buy from Shrapnel too.

quote:

Just a word of advice. And no, neither will I be purchasing this (at that price)... even though it's my favorite of the CC series.


OK, your call anyway.

I like to look at the price of a game as to how much I will play it. I bought War in the Pacific for $70 over a year ago. I play it at least 3 hours a week which brings it down to, oh, about 45 cents a session at this point (it goes down each time I play). Much cheaper than even the soda I drink when I play. I bought CC:COI a couple days after it came out and already have the cost per session down well under $1. And the other guys' games, Dominions 2 and 3? Yikes, I am under 25 cents per hour. So, yes, to me these games are worth every penny I pay for them. For me, Matrix games are not "how much" rather I am more concerned as to which pay check I take them out of when I buy them (payday is this Friday so CotA is coming home).

The other benefit of buying and supporting a company like Matrix games is as Shaun mentioned above--continued improvement of existing games as well development of new games. I also enjoy the fact that the publishers and developers of the games at Matrix are involved with their customer base. In many cases the developers are on the boards with us, the customers. I love that.





FNG -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 2:41:46 PM)

'Real' wargames are in a very small niche market. I try to buy at least one Matrix title per year so that I am supporting the company that supports my hobby. When I think of how many hours that I have spent playing Steel Panthers *for free*, it seems only fair. Also, the titles that I have bought have been very satisfying and reasonably priced, especially if one consider's Terl's $/£ per play session.

I bought CoI for £25 and would guess that I have paid about £0.75/hour thus far, and I am nowhere near exhausting the 'built-in' content, let alone the vast store of community offerings. I consider that to be extremely good value - I don't think I would get that kind of mileage for my leisure spending in many other places.

I used to work in the games industry, and citing 5x or 10x sales is pure fantasy. If there was that volume of sales for this product, it would not be getting sold through this channel - it would be in every games shop, on the shelf.



Rabbitman -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 3:37:37 PM)

I have no problem with the price. I'd pay double that, if Matrix re-released Close Combat 1.

I know it has been said that it's old and not worth it but I've played 1,2 and 5 and I honestly have CC1 ranked ahead of 5 and it's pretty damn close to 2.



LitFuel -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 4:22:02 PM)

Really read Shaun's post, as much as you don't want to hear it those are the facts. I have no stake in this other then I love the CC series and after all these years have never found anything to replace it. To me the price is worth it and about right considering the above mentioned facts. I figure part of the cost is not only supporting a possible CC6 and CC7, but also the re-releases as even if they do a little touch up here and there and add maps and such it's worth it for me to have these buffed up for newer systems and out there again. Just because something is older doesn't mean it's not worth the time or the price...new isn't always better as I keep finding out every time I buy a game lately. Long live CC I say [:D]



Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 7:05:14 PM)

quote:

Really read Shaun's post, as much as you don't want to hear it those are the facts. I have no stake in this other then I love the CC series and after all these years have never found anything to replace it. To me the price is worth it and about right considering the above mentioned facts. I figure part of the cost is not only supporting a possible CC6 and CC7, but also the re-releases as even if they do a little touch up here and there and add maps and such it's worth it for me to have these buffed up for newer systems and out there again. Just because something is older doesn't mean it's not worth the time or the price...new isn't always better as I keep finding out every time I buy a game lately. Long live CC I say


Just read my post and a word of advice to all, NEVER make a post before your first cup of coffee ;) Talk about badly written! I am just glad you get where I was coming from lol.

Cheers

Sulla



JAMiAM -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 8:27:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
Just read my post and a word of advice to all, NEVER make a post before your first cup of coffee ;) Talk about badly written! I am just glad you get where I was coming from lol.


LoL! You suffer that affliction, too? I make that mistake at least once a week!

Best of luck and sales to the Close Combat dev team, from the TOAW III dev team.[sm=00000436.gif]



Blond_Knight -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 9:22:44 PM)

This game has a way of growing you. I bought it right after if became available and yes at first I felt let down by it just like I was by PCOWS, Star Shatter 2 and the endless bickering that brings down anything called 'Harpoon' . It seem's like the CC3 I remember with little things tacked on but still the same old thing.
But...after spending some time with COI I really have started to enjoy it. Maybe the vehicle AI is dumb as a bag of hammers, buts its manageable. And while the sounds are nice as-is, Im really enjoying the 'Der Ost Front' plugin and its sounds are darn nice.
Unlike some purchases I feel like I will get my money's worth of fun out of this game.
However if you guys could bind some of the CSO editing tools and a GUI map maker into a patch that would just be super.



Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 9:54:25 PM)

Hia JAMiAM,

Thanks mate, man I REALLY should know better after all this time and many thanks for the best wishes! Have always enjoyed TOAW ;)

BK, glad you are enjoying it, we tried to make the game as accessible as possible for adding in the mods, the mods have always been the core of the CC Community, but there were issues of actually using them, we tried as far as possible to negate that. Pathing was improved, anyone who is familiar with CC will see how and where.

Many of the things I have seen mentioned here and on other forums are already in CC6 and much more is planned. CC6 is already well along, also expect to see some things that are very new to the CC series! Lots that we have learned in working with the military will be of huge value in where we are going with CC6. The jump from CC5 to CC6 is much bigger than in CC4-5 or CC3-4 for example. Probably its the biggest jump in version and changes during the CC series. ;) BUT as all of us are CC junkies, its going to be CC to the core <G>

Sulla



Tactics -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 10:53:41 PM)

I paid $49 so I could have the hard copy manual.  I'm A-ok with the price for two reasons:
  • I want to see Close Combat 6 & 7
  • I never contributed to the CSO site to support their bandwidth - Even though I visited and DL'd mods regulary



LitFuel -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 11:32:13 PM)

Shaun,

Are you guys still planning on the re-releases despite working CC6?, I was hoping to buy all those too for support and for the fact my  new machine just hates the old CC's for some reason. I want to complete my CC collection once again [:D]...CC2 please, hint hint [8D]



inquisiteur -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/5/2007 11:48:30 PM)

price sounds ok for me, I have waited for a remake for several years now. For newbies playing warcraft (which is a good game) they may indeed, if having a limited budget consider bying or not this game. Good luck CSO for next releases.



KG Erwin -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/6/2007 12:09:44 AM)

Jeez louise, jpinard, I didn't flinch at paying $40 for CoI -- yeah, I'd previously bought CC3. I knew what I was getting, and I ALSO regard the purchase as an investment in future development.

Let's look at another Matrix product -- PureSim baseball -- I bought two different versions of that, too, for the same reasons.

This isn't the Evil Empire (Micros*ft). This is the gaming equivalent of supporting the local Mom & Pop shop versus another Evil Empire (Walm*rt).

I have no problem with doing that -- I'm sorry that you do.



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/6/2007 12:53:51 AM)

If you're gonna play the game for more than a couple of weeks, it's worth forty or fifty dollars. If not, it's not worth $20, either. In my case, only a handful of computer wargames from the last decade have met this standard, and all are the foundation of a series, or family of games that I pretty much played to exhaustion:

Close Combat
Sid Meier's Gettysburg
Airborne Assault
Take Command: Bull Run

That's it. That's all there is. For me, CoI and the prospect of a genuine CC6 are OBVIOUSLY worth well beyond the price of a trip to the cinema. Close Combat has provided me with hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay and I'm genuinely thankful to the developers for having devoted their considerable talents to the endeavor.

It's also worth mentioning that you have to sell a LOT more games at $19.99 to break even, IF anyones interested in the math.

PoE

BTW: I think that Koios' Panzer Command game can someday join the list above. It just needs a little fleshing out.








Laryngoscope -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/6/2007 1:17:01 AM)

quote:


I think that Koios' Panzer Command game can someday join the list above. It just needs a little fleshing out.


Meat is being added to the bones.



jpinard -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/6/2007 2:06:44 AM)

Shaun, thanks for the really great response.
Yes, I do not understand the tabulation behind the scenes for all game pricing.  I know some of it, but not all.  I also know that publishers normally take a depressing amount of each sale - sometimes leaving very little for the developer.
I guess I was hoping to see an expanded customer base via cost, instead of a static one.  If I had more money I wouldn't flinch at the cost and would gladly pay $60 per game... but being economically contrained means one has to look at all their options carefully before "investing".  And when those of us with limited income purchase games it's a careful investment more than anything else. 

What I did not know however... was this was a launchpad and funding effort towards new CC's.  I guess there are too many people out there like myself who do not know this... and it's the prevalent idea on common gaming forums as well.  In fact when I came here to and saw all the CC6 threads... I thought it was the typical (we're not satisifed with this game, make us a sequel now!).  So I (along with many others) simply avoid threads where people can't even be bothered to talk about the game that was just released. Howeever -as is apparent - that's totally not the case here.

You've changed my mind and when I've saved up enough money I will be buying this knowing what I do now.  I love the CC series and always have.  Hope AI work can continue because the one thing that frustrated me with the series from C3 and on was the AI.

As to - where did I get my mods?  As I recall I got most of them from closecombatseries.net & closecombat.org from previous years.  I'm sure there's a lot of ignorant gamers out there (just like myself) who didn't know you ran the sites where we downloaded all our mods from - and a lot of us like to support those places.

Another issue I see:  http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=335  there's no mention of the enhanced AI.  That's a huge selling point for single player gamers, and I didn't see any mention until you click another link and read to the end.

That poor overview makes it sound like a glorified mod with people trying to make a buck off pre-existing work or a mp lobby.  I'd seriously ask Matrixgames to change that and include a better quick overview.  I've been gaming for for 20 years, and if I can be turned off by it... I think a lot of others can be as well.  If Matrix is selling this instead of you... they need to do a better job and not rely on a person havign to work so hard (posting on the Matrix or CC forum) to find out there's more to this release.

People like you deserve success, and I hope to see this continue... but some things right now aren't working in your favor, and I'd hate to see a lack of sales because people didn't know the whole story... and what I see is most people don't understand (just like myself).



Canuck_jp -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/7/2007 11:27:05 AM)

Well I won't be paying 39.99 for it-or 49.99 for that matter.  I just picked up Battlefront for 49.99 and I picked up EU3 for 39.99 so it's not like I'm not willing to plunk down the cash either.



Erik Rutins -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/7/2007 2:13:45 PM)

jpinard,

quote:

ORIGINAL: jpinard
Another issue I see:  http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=335  there's no mention of the enhanced AI.  That's a huge selling point for single player gamers, and I didn't see any mention until you click another link and read to the end.


Yes, it's there under the "More Info" link and also in the same detailed description on the store if you click one of the Buy Now links. The thing is, there are a lot of changes and new features, too many to really describe in the initial two paragraph blurb, so they were reserved for the multi-page detailed info. This is the case with pretty much all our games.

Based on your suggestion, though, I just added it into the "blurb" shorter list of features.

quote:

That poor overview makes it sound like a glorified mod with people trying to make a buck off pre-existing work or a mp lobby.  I'd seriously ask Matrixgames to change that and include a better quick overview.  I've been gaming for for 20 years, and if I can be turned off by it... I think a lot of others can be as well.  If Matrix is selling this instead of you... they need to do a better job and not rely on a person havign to work so hard (posting on the Matrix or CC forum) to find out there's more to this release.


I can't imagine anyone interested in this release wouldn't read the More Info page, or the Store page, or come to the forum and read the changes list. I don't really see that clicking "More Info" because the initial blurb doesn't answer all your questions is a major hurdle. With that said, part of the reason the AI changes were not front and center is that while the AI was improved, some issues remain and we did not want customers to feel misled, expecting some kind of night and day improvement - which most would if the #1 touted feature was a better AI.

Regards,

- Erik



jpinard -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 7:38:01 AM)

quote:



I can't imagine anyone interested in this release wouldn't read the More Info page.


You'd be surprised... and it's not always good to assume such a thing. A person can be interested yet be really short on time due to profession and family. Doens't mean they won't buy, it but have other things that vie for their time, so the Overview is all it gets...

I think it's great what you added though.



Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 8:07:58 PM)

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to say that Simtek is very happy with the way Matrix has pushed the release of CoI for us as a company. With online games sales I think it would be hard to find anyone more experienced than Matrix at what they do.

I think one of the things that makes Matrix different is given in Eriks reply above:

quote:

Based on your suggestion, though, I just added it into the "blurb" shorter list of features.
They listen, not to just the customers, but also the developers, testers etc. This was one of the main reasons Matrix is where it is and why we chose Matrix as our publisher! I am sure many of the developers here feel the same way or they would not be here ;)

Cheers

Shaun






Hertston -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 9:01:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace

This was one of the main reasons Matrix is where it is and why we chose Matrix as our publisher!


I'm very curious to know who the possible alternatives might have been? [;)]



LitFuel -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 9:48:30 PM)

An answer to my re-releases question would be nice??



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 11:22:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaun Wallace
Speaking for the developers here. You have to remember that Atomic is dead (simply a brand name now) and that the ONLY thing that is going to happen for the CC seroes further development is going to be from us. We are not sadly independently wealthy (sadly) and need to fund the development of CC6. With the release instead of simply putting out CC3 with zero work, we did as much as we could and enhanced added as much as we could.

There is much that we want to do for CC6, as Simtek, without funds this will not happen.


So the idea is that customers or future customers of CC6 fund the development of the game/series by buying CC CoI? Fair enough, now that you put it that way. But I have problem with something else.

For that idea to work, CC CoI should have been designed as "teaser" for what future holds, but it's quite the opposite. CC: CoI is ride down the memory lane, and too much of a copy/paste "work" for my taste.

I have exactly zero arguments to believe you plan, will, or know what to do with CC6. I have seen absolutely *nothing* that would suggest you know, or are willing to improve the engine. Nothing.

If you say CC6 will be this and that I have only your word, nothing else. CC: CoI is not even a teaser for CC6, it's quite simply the 100% copy of the 8 year old game (+ mods blah blah) which does not work well as promise for the future (something, that you want funded with players money).

Oleg




LitFuel -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 11:39:39 PM)

Oleg,

You know darn well 100% is not correct, and you also know if you've read any of the posts on this topic or at the other CC sites that funding was not it's only purpose. It's brought new players in and drummed up renewed interest in the series. You have to start somewhere, and getting the old games out there again is something that needed to be done first to even give CC6 and beyond a chance. I think your asking your questions a little to early and I really don't get the point.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 11:48:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LitFuel
You know darn well 100% is not correct, and you also know if you've read any of the posts on this topic or at the other CC sites that funding was not it's only purpose.

I think your asking your questions a little to early and I really don't get the point.


OK so it's not 100% it's 99%? Sorry, 97%? 95%? Come on, this game is a copy paste of 8 year old product with some mods added (mostly stuff that could be changed via editing of TXT files, and/or that was freely available on the net).

As I said if the funding of the future projects is the idea behind this, I have NO problem with that - generally speaking - but then I'd love to see something that would make those future plans a tad bit more believable than empty promises.

Compared to CC: CoI even TOAW3 - which I criticised openly on several occassions - seems to have made giant steps forward (a laughable comparison yes [:D])



Shaun Wallace -> RE: You've lost a lot of sales due to the high price. (3/8/2007 11:54:49 PM)

Hi Oleg,

quote:

I have exactly zero arguments to believe you plan, will, or know what to do with CC6. I have seen absolutely *nothing* that would suggest you know, or are willing to improve the engine. Nothing.


This is true of anything, however if you have been following the threads you will know that Simtek has done extensive work for the military based on the CC engine, this includes CC:RAF/CC:M5/CC:MAT and CC:JTAC. Much of this includes work that is way beyond any changes seen in any version to version before. Find any Marine, training using CCM or CCMAT and you do not have to take my word for it. (while working for the USMC we even got a commendation from the Commandant of the USMC, no small feat for a small company) Of course if you are this cynical about things to start with very little I say will change your mind.

quote:

If you say CC6 will be this and that I have only your word, nothing else. CC: CoI is not even a teaser for CC6, it's quite simply the 100% copy of the 8 year old game (+ mods blah blah) which does not work well as promise for the future (something, that you want funded with players money).


This was never supposed to be anything but a re-release, we added some chnages to the AI and other bits but this was stated very plainly by all involved and is not a teaser for anything. It was supposed to make using mods easier and maybe help the online community get started again outside of CC5. We did exactly what we set out to do and if you do not want to take our or rather my word for it thats fine. There are many that are eagerly awaiting CC6 and when we say we will deleiver CC6 thats exactly what we will deliver.

Many people never got the chance to play the original game and many who have played it and have enjoyed the mods, which are so flippantly blah blahed are still making those mods for that 8 year old game. Same as many other games out there. Maybe just maybe there is a reason the USMC are using the CC engine as a tactical trainer?

Sulla




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