The revised patch seems to have done nothing (Full Version)

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elmerlee -> The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 12:57:57 AM)

You had stated the AI sub thing was fixed. Plain and simple it is NOT.

Now there is an "f9" or a crash on defensive fumble recoveries. I could live with recovering using F9 but when a crash occurs after this thats just too much. That error was not in the game before latest patch.

If there is some "trick" to installing the patch a read-me would be in order.

I've spent a great deal of time making an editor,developing realistic plays,and working with the ratings. All in anticipation of a couple "simple" fixes.

To put it mildly - I've had enough.



David Winter -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 1:43:20 AM)

No fixes are ever 'simple'.

The beta's were given to testers with a claimed fixed list. That item was listed. No reports of problems were ever reported back. The subs work here and with no reports to the contrary, I have to think they're working for everyone.

The F9 bug is not something that has come up before but I'll look into that to see what is causing the problem

thanks



RVD -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 2:21:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmerlee
If there is some "trick" to installing the patch a read-me would be in order.


Actually, I'd like to know just how this should be installed also. Does anyone have a step by step on this?

Thanks,
John



David Winter -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 2:31:13 AM)

There are two versions of the patch up on the server so it depends on which path you're more comfortable taking.
 
I would suspect that for most, the simplest path is to download the file: MaximumFootball-UpdateRelease-v13171revisonD.zip and install that over top of the existing version of the game.
 
As I mentioned, the F9 problem that was brought up seems to be something new, so I'll look at it.



David Winter -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 6:01:06 AM)

So just to follow up.

1. Yes there is an F9 bug with fumbles. I've corrected that and will make the hot fix available for you as soon as I can get it.

2. AI Subs. I can not confirm any sort of problem with this. The AI subs seem to be working fine. I've had players sub out properly as they become fatigued. So, assuming that the depth charts are correct, and the players are indeed fatiguing (if you have fatigued turned off, there will be no subs) then players should be subbing out.

thanks
David



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 6:16:03 AM)

The AI isnt subbing in simmed games for me either. I simmed a few more games tonight, and not once did anyone other than the starting RB, FB or QB ever run the ball. In one game the starting RB ran over 20 times for well over 100 yards, so there is no way he wasnt fatigued at some point.


I am still seeing the issue of the game log just ending a game with lots of time left on the clock after a kickoff. Tonight a TD was made, and the extra point was made with 5:24 left. Yet the kickoff afterwards was the last play of the game.



David Winter -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 6:32:47 AM)

Do you have fatigued turned on?

And we're talking about played out 3D game? Not sim games?



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 6:50:23 AM)

Simmed games. Playing games, and simming games in the same league doesnt work, because the sim engine doesnt match up at all with the results a played out game gives. So if you want any kind of consistency of stats you have to either play or sim all games. Since playing out every single game isnt really an option.........................

So is fatige off for simmed games? I have never seen an option to turn it on or off for simmed games so I figured it was on. We really should be given an option for fatigue and injuries in simmed games. If simmed games dont use fatigue, or give us the choice, that just makes stats even more inconsistent from played to simmed games.




David Winter -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 7:26:20 AM)

Well, there's the confusion then. As a simmed game has no interface to show players being subbed in or out, you're not going to see subs in a sim game. Sim games always have injuries and fatigue on. But, as I said, there is nothing displayed on screen or in any logs to indicate a player was not involved in a couple of plays due to being subbed out.

All the AI sub work was done on the 3D game. And as near as I can tell, it's working as it should. Players are on the field for one play, and if they're overly fatigued, they're swapped out for the next.

I did spend some time trying to find out why Running backs would not be subbed out in the 3D game and I've come to the conclusion that it's probably the fatigue threshold for those players is too high. While I do see them being subbed out it's not common because it's possible that they never reach the fatigue point that would see them sub out.. for various reasons. Players rest, players don't carry the ball every play, etc.. Unless the AI runs the ball with the same player 5 or 6 times consecutively (with no change of possession or break in the play) you're probably not going to see a running back fatigue to the point he's subbed out.



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 2:59:42 PM)

So, you are trying to tell me, in a 15 minute per quarter game, a RB probably wont get fatigued enough to be subbed out??????? That needs to be fixed because it is completely unrealistic.


Edit- Also, substitutions should be made when one team is winning by a large margin.



David Winter -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 6:47:46 PM)

No.. that's not what I'm saying. Please read what I wrote. Players get subbed out when they fatigue. If the fatigue skill of your players is too high for your liking, you can lower that skill and players will sub out more. I don't think there's anything to be fixed there. And yes, if a back never carries the ball, or does so rarely, he's likely not going to be subbed out at all. Different rules require different uses of players.



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 6:58:18 PM)

  When I sim games, 15 minute per quarter, I am NEVER seeing the 2nd string RB get any carries. Either the first string RB isnt getting subbed out at all OR when he is the AI isnt calling any running plays.

Im going to run a test. Im going to make a playbook with one running play. I'll try simming a few games(15 minute quarters) with a team using that playbook and see if the 2nd string RB actually gets any carries. If not, then something is wrong.



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 7:09:00 PM)

I simmed 3 games, using 15 minute quarters. One team had a playbook with 1 running play and thats it. They ran that one running play every snap. The results--

Game 1... 43 rushing attempts for 206 yards...... all by one player.......... never subbed.
Game 2- 37 rushing attempts for 61 yards........all by one player....... never subbed.
Game 3- 45 rushing attempts for 216 yards....... all by one player.......never subbed.




grrncore -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 10:10:06 PM)

just got the patch and so far i have not notice a change.



David Winter -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 11:02:38 PM)

Well, I don't know how many different ways to say it. You're talking about the quick sim game and I'm talking about the AI subs for the 3D game.



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/26/2007 11:32:39 PM)

Ok, I understand, BUT dont you think subs should work in the sim game too? Do you plan to fix it so subs work in simmed games?



elmerlee -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (4/28/2007 5:58:24 PM)

Part of David's post above --

"So just to follow up. "

"1. Yes there is an F9 bug with fumbles. I've corrected that and will make the hot fix available for you as soon as I can get it. "

So is this now available ?????????????



elmerlee -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (5/2/2007 5:28:33 PM)

This is a "Hot-Fix" - right ?



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (5/2/2007 11:09:58 PM)

I'll ask again, since subs are NOT happening in simmed games, do you plan on fixing it?

This game is supposed to simulate the game of football, and substitutions are a very important part.



Deft -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (5/3/2007 6:16:29 AM)

Quick sims are going to be completely rewritten at some time so I don't think Dave's emphasi is to fix something that doesn't work right now and will change soon.



Scott_WAR -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (5/3/2007 3:35:17 PM)

I am beginning to wonder.......
The 3d engine is going to get redone...
The sim engine is going to get redone...

Whats NOT getting redone, and why not just officially start over.......... at this point thats what appears to be happening a piece of the game at a time.

EDIT- Let me make this clear....this is NOT a complaint, but a question.... since so much is getting redone, would it be quicker to start over, instead of trying to make new changes work with old code. ESPECIALLY with the release of Vista and all the new problems it is throwing at developers.



tshipley -> Still having with new patch not working (5/3/2007 8:41:34 PM)

Hey Dave
I keep getting a erroe messagewhen trying to use the new patch release 25th april 2007
---------------------------
Maximum-Football
---------------------------
Run-time error '91':

Object variable or With block variable not set
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------
Please help with i really want to use these new patches but they are not working i have instll the new Direct X on my computer and it is still not working
Thanks
Thomas



David Winter -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/3/2007 10:02:22 PM)

Hi tshipl68

Yes, I'm aware of that one thanks. It's the F9 bug that was brought up in the first post. And it's the one that the hot fix should address.

As for the delay. I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss too I'm afraid. I delieverd the update about 12 hours after the problem was first reported. But I can't hold a gun to people heads and have schedules changed just for this project. Matrix has a small staff, and they have a huge amount of work to do on other titles.

thanks
David



David Winter -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/3/2007 10:08:44 PM)

quote:

The 3d engine is going to get redone...
The sim engine is going to get redone...

Whats NOT getting redone, and why not just officially start over.......... at this point thats what appears to be happening a piece of the game at a time.


Building new features based on existing code is done all the time. When needed, ripping out existing things such as the 3D engine and replacing it with new code, is also done all the time. The 3D engine doesn't have a big impact on something like pursuit code so you wouldn't throw that away to build in the new engine. Now, if later on, the code for player pursuit needs to be improved (and I can see many ways to improve it) then that would be redone. Customers have asked for a different style of quick sim engine. To make that work, the existing one needs to be pulled out and an new one built. (Removal of the existing version is trivial. Making the 3D game work as the new quick sim is that part that gets complicated.)



Marauders -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/4/2007 8:54:47 AM)

Before I make this post, I would like to point out that I am not part of Wintervalley Software, and my post is a personal observation.

Maximum-Football was created first and foremost to play a live 3D game.  The sim feature is there to help owners with leagues play extra games.  It was not intended as the primary game tool.

The beta guys are tweaking some of the sim game stats event modifiers, as you may also, but it will not match the 3D game in features unless the same engine is used or Maximum-Football has added a completely other game to its code.  I guess David could take the time to do the latter, as it is more simple to do than a full 3D game, but it would take time away from the major emphasis of Maximum-Football, and that is 3D play.  It would also delay the former down the road, and that is the prefered method of a simmed game most of us here have expressed.

For leagues without a specific team owned by a single user, it is best to run a game of the week live and rotate the teams in the live game so that the teams will have close to an equal number of live and simmed games.  For leagues with a primary single user owned team, it will be up to the owner to use the features that work the best as one may.

As always, David will do the best he can, but there are always opportunity costs to coding one thing prior to another.



Scott_WAR -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/4/2007 2:57:30 PM)

  All you have to do is look at how most people voted in the thread asking what people want done next with the game.......... a new sim engine.............. to realize that most people are using this game as a sim engine,.....not for the 3-d game. With that in mind, IF the focus has been mainly on the 3-D game, then its time to realize what the owners of this game really want and change the focus. Go look at how they voted.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1122577&mpage=1&key



elmerlee -> RE: The revised patch seems to have done nothing (5/4/2007 4:36:03 PM)

My guess would be that Matrix staff has gotten smaller and smaller in the past year and they now have little if and "production" compenent. They are "re-packers".

Just check out the number of games they have "in-development" that NEVER come to life. Pure false advertising in my estimation. It is one thing to be a developer and have this happen to a game but in the case of Matrix it is constant.
It happens too many times for it to be anything reasonable.

And now David Winter, who seems to be really trying, cannot even get a patch up because is "too busy". Bull****. Looks like Matrix is dumping this product.



redwolf1 -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 1:35:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

  All you have to do is look at how most people voted in the thread asking what people want done next with the game.......... a new sim engine.............. to realize that most people are using this game as a sim engine,.....not for the 3-d game. With that in mind, IF the focus has been mainly on the 3-D game, then its time to realize what the owners of this game really want and change the focus. Go look at how they voted.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1122577&mpage=1&key


Scott, I believe you are partially misinterpreting this. The voting reflects a desire for the user to be able to, when simming a game, to use the game's "on-field" engine (or 3-D engine, if you want) but without the graphics (a la FBPro). The main reason is to get stats on par with, and completely and directly comparable to, non-simmed games. I don't think you can conclude that most users want to ultimately sim their games. I believe the majority are probably like me - those that want to actually coach their team's games using the "on-field" engine, and sim many or most of the rest of the teams in the league's games, but have generated stats directly comparable. That's why I voted for the new sim engine (and I am sure many did as well).

Now if this is a project that Dave is working on currently (replacing the current "sim" engine with a engine that uses the actual "on-field" engine), then it would actually be a wasted effort fixing a sim engine that is going to change and actually utilize the "on-field" engine in some manner - indeed, it would be counter-productive and cause further delay.




garysorrell -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 3:23:04 AM)

Im in agreement with redwolf1 on this one. I look forward to the new sim option.

I dont think that the sim options of other games are any great shakes. I cant tell you how many times a 1 loss team met me in the playoffs in Madden and I destroyed them, because they got there via the crap sim engine of that game. I think the FBpro way was ideal. And honestly, it looks to me like David will give us a similar setup with Max. The quick sim like we have now and the new sim(minus graphics)engine.

Im not criticizing anyone here either. Scott_WAR and elmerlee are absolutely within their rights as purchasers to speak up.

Im admittedly one of Davids biggest cheerleaders. This is the game ive always wanted.
However, I will admit to being a bit tired of wondering when I can relax and just start playing.
I would really like to see David at some point just say "Thats it, the game is on feature lockdown. New graphics engine, new sim engine, vista fixes...thats it"
Then squash whatever bugs are there and start looking toward an expansion/add-on, or a version 2, for whatever direction he wants to take the game in.

Im currently using 1.3.149 and plan to probably stay with that. I dont seem to have any issues that prevent me from playing the game the way I want to.

Having rambled on, let me say keep up the good work David.



Scott_WAR -> RE: Still having with new patch not working (5/5/2007 4:30:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redwolf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

  All you have to do is look at how most people voted in the thread asking what people want done next with the game.......... a new sim engine.............. to realize that most people are using this game as a sim engine,.....not for the 3-d game. With that in mind, IF the focus has been mainly on the 3-D game, then its time to realize what the owners of this game really want and change the focus. Go look at how they voted.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1122577&mpage=1&key


Scott, I believe you are partially misinterpreting this. The voting reflects a desire for the user to be able to, when simming a game, to use the game's "on-field" engine (or 3-D engine, if you want) but without the graphics (a la FBPro). The main reason is to get stats on par with, and completely and directly comparable to, non-simmed games. I don't think you can conclude that most users want to ultimately sim their games. I believe the majority are probably like me - those that want to actually coach their team's games using the "on-field" engine, and sim many or most of the rest of the teams in the league's games, but have generated stats directly comparable. That's why I voted for the new sim engine (and I am sure many did as well).

Now if this is a project that Dave is working on currently (replacing the current "sim" engine with a engine that uses the actual "on-field" engine), then it would actually be a wasted effort fixing a sim engine that is going to change and actually utilize the "on-field" engine in some manner - indeed, it would be counter-productive and cause further delay.





Actually, in a roundabout way thats what I am saying. Most people, at this point, want the sim engine fixed, ie.. give accurate results, based on how a 3-D game plays out. To do this the sim engine will have use subs correctl, which is what I am asking about. If the sim engine isnt going to sub players, as would happen in a played out 3-d game, then the sim engine needs work,.............. as is shown by the vote. If that is the case, which makes sense, then it is 100% true, nothing needs to be done with the current sim engine, and work needs to prgress on the updated one,.... which we really need. Just make sure it subs players................. which is what I was asking to begin with, just in the wrong way.


I think gary hit on EXACTLY what is troubling me..... I have started and stopped work on a few things, because future updates that are planned is going to change the game, and I dont want to do a lot of work just to have to start over again next update.

So yeah, at some point the game has to finalize and stop adding and changing features.

BUT- we must have certain features for online, multiplayer leagues. We need that sim engine, we need H2H play, and possibly we need GM/financials.

I for one, bought this game hoping to play football in an online league, and am waiting patiently for that to become a reality.



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