RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years

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Ursa MAior -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/2/2007 10:31:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen You are simply wrong. Forget what you learned prior to 1989 since it simply doesn´t wash. Dont tell me that the commies were lying! You must have clairvoyance! Irony apart could you quote me some just wars -fought by an army on foreign soil -apart from WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm(which were defensive wars to defeat a greater evil) ? All this in cca 5000 years of warfare?

Twotribes -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 12:35:33 AM)
Iraq is a JUST war. Saddam Hussein signed a cease fire AFTER he start6ed a war. He failed utterly for 12 years to live up to it. That ALONE makes it just. Add in that with him still in power and sanctions lifted ( thanks to certain nations which shall remain nameless) he would have returned to mass production of chemical and Biological weapons, he would have returned to working on the nuclear weapon he wanted and he would have been free to rearm, reequip and make overtures to any and all terrorist groups to further his desire to punish the USA. But hey thats just me, you go ahead and support a mass murderer that routinely slaughtered his neighbors and his own people. THAT is historical FACT, no fiction, no conspiracy at all. Iraq WAS defensive in nature. We had a choice, wait till Saddam was ready to strike and hope we could retaliate ( given the response from certain people and Countries on 9/11 it is doubtful EVEN that would have satisfied some Countries)after who knows how many were killed by one of his weapons. OR go in when he absolutely refused to comply with his own agreements that ended the shooting war 12 years before. Grenada was another justified action. As was Panama. I must assume that you are/were opposed to the offensive action France took a couple years ago against the Ivory Coast ( I believe thats the country) when they machine gunned a large crowd of unarmed civilians in retaliation for a bomb being dropped on their compound as supposed "peace keepers"? You must have been opposed to Bosnia intervention, Kosovo too? Any action taken against Serbia of course, according to you was a "bad" deal also right? How about Afghanistan? That Government REFUSED to kick out or turn over a known criminal, mass murderer. Was that too an "unjust war?" I am surprised you mentioned Viet Nam. Unless of course you supported the North? The same thing that happened to South Viet Nam is now being tried on a free and independent Iraq, by the same crowd. As for WW2, If only the US had just sold metal and oil to Japan, we never would have been attacked at all and would have had no "right" to fight in Europe or the Pacific, according to your criteria. Same with WW1, except for as dubious claim of Germany attacking civilian ships ( which of course WERE carrying war supplies) the US had no buisiness in that European war. And Korea? Why that was simply the North trying to reunite the Country, and we stuck our noses where it didnt belong, using your logic anyway. And Desert Storm? Please? We had no business there either... I mean why was it our business if Iraq swallowed up Kuwait and threatened Saudia Arabia and the other small Gulf Countries? We had no "moral" right to oppose Iraq after all. That war was ALL about Oil. Countries wage war because of Politics. They want something or feel threatened. No other reason. By your definition, NO war EVER is justified, not even if your the defender. Better to simply surrender and hope the aggressor is humane.

Rune Iversen -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 12:59:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Dont tell me that the commies were lying! You must have clairvoyance! Irony apart could you quote me some just wars -fought by an army on foreign soil -apart from WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm(which were defensive wars to defeat a greater evil) ? All this in cca 5000 years of warfare? Heh... Most of the wars Rome fought were considered "just" according to Roman jurisprudence. And I have to call non sequitur. Again......

Ursa MAior -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 9:00:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen Heh... Most of the wars Rome fought were considered "just" according to Roman jurisprudence. You know a "legal" justification is like an excuse which is like an arse. Everybody has one. quote: And I have to call non sequitur. Again...... Well I accept that you follow the realist school of politics (aka nations act on their national interests), but dont expect EVERYBODY to buy the sales speech escorting it. IF all speeches of freedom, liberty, anti-radicalism and stuff were true neither Musarraf, nor the Saudi family along with the Gulf monarchies should be in their place.

Rune Iversen -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 5:35:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior You know a "legal" justification is like an excuse which is like an arse. Everybody has one. [:-] In that case you should not try to use the term "just" as a parameter. It is not very logical to denounce the point of ones last post in the very next one quote: Well I accept that you follow the realist school of politics (aka nations act on their national interests), but dont expect EVERYBODY to buy the sales speech escorting it. IF all speeches of freedom, liberty, anti-radicalism and stuff were true neither Musarraf, nor the Saudi family along with the Gulf monarchies should be in their place. Strawman [:-] You will have to move beyond your narrow contemporary vision if this is to go anywhere. Yes, you can make the above points on the current situation, but when viewed against the historical record your points fall flat.

Ursa MAior -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 5:43:41 PM)
What a conversation! What a list of arguments! I am amazed! It was fun a fun discussion. Bye.

dinsdale -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 5:59:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Irony apart could you quote me some just wars -fought by an army on foreign soil -apart from WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm(which were defensive wars to defeat a greater evil) ? All this in cca 5000 years of warfare? Obviously the Soviet intervention in Hungary should spring to mind. An elite uprising based on economic benefit to themselves were crushed before they could potentially lead Hungary to it's third unprovoked invasion of Russia in less than 50 years. Of course, that's strictly using your own rules for what you consider "just" wars, though I doubt it's what you had in mind when you hastily attempted to make your subjective definition an objective one.

Rune Iversen -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 6:19:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior What a conversation! What a list of arguments! I am amazed! It was fun a fun discussion. Bye. The honor is all mine [8D]

Ursa MAior -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 7:17:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dinsdale Obviously the Soviet intervention in Hungary should spring to mind. An elite uprising based on economic benefit to themselves were crushed before they could potentially lead Hungary to it's third unprovoked invasion of Russia in less than 50 years. Do you EVEN realize what you are talking about? Elite uprising? Economic benefit? Third invasion in 50 years? You must be mistaking us with someone else. While joining the 1941 attack on the USSR was not a wise step since no allied power offered ANY chance to reevaluate the completely unjust Trianon Treaty, Hungary had no choice but to join the axis. I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is.

Rune Iversen -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 8:19:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Hungary had no choice but to join the axis. Verifyably wrong.

Rune Iversen -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 8:20:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dinsdale Obviously the Soviet intervention in Hungary should spring to mind. An elite uprising based on economic benefit to themselves were crushed before they could potentially lead Hungary to it's third unprovoked invasion of Russia in less than 50 years. Of course, that's strictly using your own rules for what you consider "just" wars, though I doubt it's what you had in mind when you hastily attempted to make your subjective definition an objective one. Beer... Funny he can´t see what you are hinting at though [;)]

Ursa MAior -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 8:22:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Hungary had no choice but to join the axis. Verifyably wrong. Verify it.

Rune Iversen -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 9:27:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Verify it. Hungary could have stayed neutral Like Yugoslavia did or been of the same sceptical bent as the Bulgarians were (ie. support the axis effort diplomatically but don´t commit any troops). Instead the hungarian fascists, eager for revenge after WW1 and with dreams of a "greater Hungary" gleaming in their eyes threw in their lot with Adolf and got their just desserts, since Adolf promised the greater return. Nobody forced the hungarians to throw in their lot fully with uncle Adolf.All that it would have taken for this to be different was for someone with half a brain to run the hungarian strategy. Not much could have prevented Hungary from falling within the communist sphere after the war though, even if Hungary had remained neutral, but one could at least have hoped for better terms and a greater degree of independence (like Yugoslavia got for instance)

dinsdale -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 9:58:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Do you EVEN realize what you are talking about? Absolutely, in the same way that you get to choose exactly what you consider war to be about, I've performed the very same with the Soviet intervention in Hungary. As a mental exercise, it wasn't very difficult. quote: Elite uprising? Yes, participation was by a fraction of the population, easily describable as an elite if one wishes. quote: Economic benefit? Yes, capitalism or anti-communism has a distinct economic benefit to those at the top of the food chain. Particularly for the elites who would head the new system. quote: Third invasion in 50 years? 1914 and 1941. Perhaps after counter-revolutionaries took control in Hungary in 1956, it would revert to facism and find yet another pretext to invade Russia. quote: You must be mistaking us with someone else. No, it looks as though you have very selective history in Hungary. Austria-Hungary and then Hungary declared war against Russia/Soviet Union. They weren't unknown events, go look them up. quote: While joining the 1941 attack on the USSR was not a wise step since no allied power offered ANY chance to reevaluate the completely unjust Trianon Treaty, Hungary had no choice but to join the axis. No choice if Hungary wished to assert her imperialist aggresssion which had previously resulted in unconditional surrender. Funnily enough, Hungary's Imperialist ambitions once again ended in unconditional surrender. I'd imagine the Soviets were unwilling to risk Hungary recovering for another bash at taking Moscow. Obviously, as your population is not taught of the horrific choices your government has made in th e past, and tries to logically explain engaging in genocide and war as "Hungary had no choice" then it was quite justified in snuffing out revisionist counter-revolutionaries in 1956. quote: I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is. Funny, anyone who disagrees with you is subject to random ad hominems. Almost as though you're utterly incapable of any kind of adult discussion. Subject is irrelevant, whether it's Napoleonic frigates or subjective labels of "just" wars. There you are screaming and pouting like a 7 year old.

dinsdale -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 10:01:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rune Iversen Funny he can´t see what you are hinting at though [;)] I know, and it's so obvious that it's sad to watch [:)]

sven -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 10:32:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is. All that is needed for some to find it is a mirror, and brutal self-honesty. regards, sven

Ursa MAior -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 10:59:37 PM)
Whoa guys I am overwhelmed. Revisionist counter revolutionaries in 56, economic consideration in a nationwide anti-communist movement, imperialist greater Hungary etc. were the last words I was expecting to hear from neoconservative, Bush jr. fanboyz, since these are really commie expressions. I have nothing more to say. Farewell guys.

Rune Iversen -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 11:01:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Whoa guys I am overwhelmed. Revisionist counter revolutionaries in 56, economic consideration in a nationwide anti-communist movement, imperialist greater Hungary etc. were the last words I was expecting to hear from neoconservative, Bush jr. fanboyz, since these are really commie expressions. I have nothing more to say. Farewell guys. [sm=00000734.gif] [sm=00000289.gif]

sven -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/3/2007 11:19:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Farewell guys. Hey we are just using the same charming agitprop you choose to use as regards the current conflict no? "Only just wars should be fought" "there are no just wars" seems like a circular logic trap to me.... I can judge for myself what is justified I don't need Mr. Kofi, or Billy C to aid me.

Doggie -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 1:23:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Whoa guys I am overwhelmed. You most certainly are. Your problem is you have no idea what you are talking about while the "morons" are infinitely more educated on the subject than you are. You did forget to call them "racists" this time, so we are seeing some progress. "Dinsdale's" synopsis of the Hungarian revolution went right over your head. You're completely out of your league, so you result to the standard feces flinging. Your problem with the "MCS crews" "intellectual level" is that it is light years beyond yours. It's like trying to discuss philosophy with an ape. He scores his best points by reaching, scooping, and flinging, just like you.

Twotribes -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 3:59:25 AM)
Just so Ursa knows, Dinsdale was not serious, he was using your criteria to show you what a joke your claim was. That you fail to understand that underlines the point.

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 9:59:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior Irony apart could you quote me some just wars…. quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior You know a "legal" justification is like an excuse which is like an arse. Everybody has one. [;)]

Culiacan Mexico -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 10:08:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior While joining the 1941 attack on the USSR was not a wise step since no allied power offered ANY chance to reevaluate the completely unjust Trianon Treaty, Hungary had no choice but to join the axis. I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is. If your argument is that in 1941 they had no choice but to join the war on the USSR... you are incorrect. The Hungarian government choice was to join in the attack, belatedly, just as they choose not to cooperate with the German with regards to Hungarian Jews.

Knuckles_85 -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 4:27:03 PM)
quote: I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is Once again an unprovoked attack on MCSH. Do you really want to do this. I think it'd be wise to rethink your strategy

cdbeck -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 5:46:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85 quote: I thought there is no intellectual level below the MCS crews'. You have proven that there is Once again an unprovoked attack on MCSH. Do you really want to do this. I think it'd be wise to rethink your strategy How is it that this MCSH crap always spills over here? Supporter or non-supporter of MCSH, isn't this a belligerent and presumptous way to act on another group's message board? I barely know what MCSH is, and I care even less. I come here to read about computer games and polite historical conversation. I don't want to see people get into a whizzing match over the respective merits/intelligence/membership of another non-affliated message board! The people with MCSH sigs seem like intelligent and reasonable people, as do the people that continually fight with them. So can't we leave this crap at the door? SoM

cdbeck -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 6:09:06 PM)
Oh, and I meant to comment on the OP. I think this must be an error. Not 110-150 years, most likely 11-15 years was what the original theory was. In Europe the major wars (most including Germany) all came in a series of about 10-20 years apart: Crimean War 1854-1856 Austro-Prussian War 1866 Franco-Prussian War 1870-1871 World War I 1914-1918 World War II 1939-1945 After World War II, the wars get much more contracted for the US: Korean War 1950-1953 Vietnam War 1959-1975 Persian Gulf War 1990-1991 Iraq War 2003-present This very small list equates to a war fought by some Western power on an average of every 16 years or so. I believe there was an old 19th or early 20th century (pre-dating WWI) theory that Europe needed to "reconfigure" every 10-20 years and usually did this by means of war. You have to define what a war is before testing this theory and what area you are talking about. If you include the whole world, and ake a very wide definition of "war" then I would guess that that the world has been in a constant state of war for centuries, with very little instance of complete peace. SoM

Paul Vebber -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/4/2007 11:01:10 PM)
quote: another non-affliated message board! It is not "unaffiliated". Matrix asked folks who wanted to talk politics, but could not do it with out some body getting mad and blaming Matrix for "allowing discussions to get out of hand" to take those discussion to a non-Matrix board and MCSH is the one many of us use and recommend becasue it offers a spectrum of "levels of discussions from the Council of War (Where fighting is discouraged), to the Steakhouse (Marquis of Queensbury rules), to the DOg house (the ultimate fighting Octagon) to the Outhouse (the back alley where better bring hains and brass knuckles). The whole "steakhouse moron" thing has been a few borderline trolls who use their passive aggresive tactics here at Matrix to snipe at others and cry persecution when others reply in kind. The Mods, in usual fashion often hit the return punch, not the provocation. SO Terminus and Ursa and teh like tend to get away with blatant rules violations and pass it off as "steakhouse morons" coming over to pick on them. They may have some fooled but they don't have me fooled and its gonna come to a head if they don't knock it off. The next display of blatant ad hominem without any attempt at reasonable argument will get someone a vacation... Its been quiet, but I sense it getting up a head of steam again. Don't try it... While a mod here, I am also... A Proud Steakhouse moron... [image]local://upfiles/19/CBD60E0452484E419CFC5F327A7DCE1B.gif[/image]

Mac67 -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/5/2007 1:01:49 AM)
Well said, sir! I dont post at the steakhouse myself, and defenitely dont agree with the worldview of some of its members, though respect their right to have their own opinions. As a impartial observer i have seen the steakhouse crowd baited and insulted here many times, mostly by the same few individuals. Glad to see someone making a stand against this. People should be able to post differing views without resorting to childish insults and name calling.

Twotribes -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/5/2007 2:20:12 AM)
Well said Paul. I am glad that this is being handled in a reasonable manner. I have my differences with the Board in question but the blatant attacks by a few here should be addressed and it sounds like that is going to happen.

cdbeck -> RE: War cycle every 110 - 150 years (5/5/2007 4:25:11 AM)
quote: It is not "unaffiliated". Matrix asked folks who wanted to talk politics, but could not do it with out some body getting mad and blaming Matrix for "allowing discussions to get out of hand" to take those discussion to a non-Matrix board... Agreed then. Good to know that official policy is not to tolerat this back and forth nonesense. I will agree that the MCSH people get antagonized alot, but "killing in self defense" is still killing, even if less culpable there is still a dead body to chop up and hide in the freezer... uh... I mean report to the lawful authorities. [8D] SoM

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