RE: The interface (Full Version)

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DBeves -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 10:16:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

I am sorry about that Berkut, I really am.  I appreciate your point.  Too often I think I develop tunnel vision and ignore things I probably shouldn't.  Such as screen resolution.  Just because I use 1024x768 on my 19" should not mean I should assume everyone else does for example.  And its the same with the interface, just because I'm used to a certain way of doing things I shouldn't assume that would be the easiest way of doing things for others.  I certainly do apologize for not doing better in that area.


What a big man FH is ... didn't come to the board with some ignore what everyone is saying just cause I feel I have to defence I have seen on so many other boards at matrix.

Gonna buy the game now just for that ... and perhaps cause it seems to me the only other comments are that there seems to be a good game underneath the interface



Berkut -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 10:22:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carnifex
I don't know how many games I recommended my friends avoid simply because it takes too many mouse clicks to do a simple action.


Beyond my own personal annoyance, this is a major factor in my concern.

I LOVE PBEM wargaming!

I play a lot of stuff. Most of it though, is actually board games played over Cyberboard or VASSAL. Stuff like Paths of Glory, ASL, BtB, etc.

But while a board game over those tools are a lot of fun, it is still a board game, and you are still playing with the limitations of that genre that computers do so well - fog of war, complex numerical interactions, presentation of information. There are some wargames that have done GREAT jobs facilitating PBEM, stuff like Combat Missions, DBWW2, WitP, even FoF. I want more, and I want them to be better and I want to be able to convince my gaming friends who play hours of wargames every week to buy them!

And I know that there will be 2-3 that I game with who I won't - can't - recommend this to, simply because of the interface and resolution.



darthsmaul -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 10:35:31 PM)

Nice to see Frank get on the boards, I wont buy it yet but I will be buying it, just a matter of time and maybe a patch or two. :)

on Interfaces I cant comment on this cuz I dont own this game but I find many are hard to learn until you have played for a while, just my 2 cents

steve



7th Somersets -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 10:42:27 PM)

I would also like to add that once you have played the game a few times you will see that the interface really falls into two parts

1) The strategic part - a very important part of Game play as you have to plan ahead - as WW1 commanders had to. A good example is as the TE you need to ensure command of the seas to maintain British supplies. You will need to allocate ships to transport your goods. If you are planning another Gallipoli or Salonica you will need to deploy transports to amphibious across the seas that your troops will travel and also gain control over them. You will need to balance shell production with reinforcements etc etc.
It takes a while to click through all of the things that need covering each turn - but while you are doing that, you are deciding your empire's future actions.

2) The tactical parts of the game - deploying and activating your HQs so that you can launch and maintain offensives, or be in a position to launch critical counter attacks. Moving cavalry units into unoccupied enemy territory to keep them under pressure. (Cavalry can do that without being activated by an HQ so long as they start the turn stacked with an infantry unit).

Personally I find (having worked on the Beta) that both become second nature very quickly. You then spend your time planning and executing your actions rather than worrying about the interface (which never bothered me at all).

If you have tried it and been put off - I suggest that you try it again. You are missing out on a great game otherwise, and you will find that you pick it up quickly.

Do ask questions on the forum - those of us that have been hammering away at it for a while will no doubt try to help if we can.

Regards.




*Lava* -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 11:03:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

I LOVE PBEM wargaming!


Well...

If you do love PBEM, you will be shooting yourself and your friends in the foot by not recommending this game.

This game will rock in PBEM.

Ray (alias Lava)



joblue -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 11:04:35 PM)

Thank you, Mr. Hunter, for your honesty. In an impersonal world where technology gets shoved down one's throat, your approach is certainly refreshing.



alejes0202 -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 11:24:50 PM)

I really can't understand how anyone can complain about this interface.  Once you begin using it, the controls quickly become intuitive.  I can only ascertain that those complaining are from the "twitch and click" RTS generation.  I don't say that as a put-down, only to point out that the frame of reference was formed by such conventions as "drag and drop," and not DOS programs that followed laddered menus.  As a veteran gamer of many, many years (I say that only to establish my credentials--I played my first wargame in the late 60's), I find this interface easy.  As a matter of fact, I find it far more user friendly than those put out by most big time developers.

Regarding the game itself, it's a masterpiece.  I have been playing it all day--I have a serious case of "just one more turn."  I find Guns of August to be a very sophisticated design with an interface that makes the depth quite accessible.  This is a very good game on a subject that is difficult to simulate.  I commend the designer.  My two cents, now I gotta go; I just have to play one more turn...!



FrankHunter -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 11:28:37 PM)

carnifex, understood and I agree completely.  An interface should not prevent you from playing.  The thing is, I make the interface quite simple so as to avoid extra work when playing.  When you're spending hours and hours trying to find a problem in the AI it doesn't take long to become frustrated with an interface.  I play my games over and over and so I like simple and functional when it comes to the interface.

At times I find areas that I dislike and I do spend time rewriting that code, trying to make it smoother and quicker.  But what I find easy to use is not necessarily what others find easy to use and that's the rub.  I tend to stick to the old way of doing things simply because that's what I'm used to.  I do rely a lot on feedback but perhaps I need to spend more time looking at other people's interfaces and not remain so comfortable with my own.




pompack -> RE: The interface (7/24/2007 11:30:47 PM)

To try to put things into perspective [:D]

(Disclaimer: I have not yet ordered this game but I will as soon as I have a bit more time to play than at present)

I can well remember the thrill and gratitude I felt when I discovered that there still existed a company that supports the design of true wargames. The exciting thing was that here was an opportunity to resurrect the the good old days when you could buy games that stessed content and historical flavor (and maybe accuracy) rather than eye candy and "true arena competition", games where you were able to worry about strategy rather than frame rate and mouse pointing accuracy.

True, these new wargames might be expensive because of the low potential sales, and good game design might come at the expense of software design expertize since the development shops were very small operations (after all, if you were a top-flight software architect with access to "state-of-the-art software development tools" would you give up your (high) six figure salalry to code and TEST software for the kind of money you could make in this business?).

None the less, I and many others were grateful that the games would be forthcoming even though the designs might be a little clunky and the UI might be a little dated; after all, at the time most of us were still playing ancient games with clunky interfaces and simplistic combat models that were designed to run on a 386 with a 40Mbyte disk because no one was developing our kind of games anymore

While the exact date of all this gratitude is lost in the distant past. it does seem like it falls in this century. Isn't it just amazing how quickly things change these days? [8|]

While I would certainly prefer games with better UI and systems architecture (and even some better math in the basic combat models), I am still glad that there are games like this that I can enjoy. True the learning curve here may be steep (and it certainly is on some others I can mention [:D]) , at least it is associated with a game with strategic depth that I can immerse myself in.

Just my two cents [>:]



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 12:08:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

On the subject of my interfaces, I would agree they aren't that cute.  Its what I'm used to so that's how I tend to do it.  I'm also not interested in programming interfaces, I write wargames because its the command and other under the hood stuff I'm interested in so that's where I spend my time.  I can see how that would be frustrating though if a player's interests don't coincide with my own.


Ouch. While I have enormous respect for game developers like Mr. Hunter, working on a shoestring to create labors of love, to hear someone say "I'm not interested in programming interfaces" really hits pretty hard. Like it or not, the interface is a supremely important part of any game, and even more so with data-intensive, detail oriented stuff like wargames. To me it's like saying "I'm not interested in programming combat systems" or "I really don't care for programming logistics."

Just my $.02 but to me the interface is equally as important as the "guts" of the game. If I don't intuitively want to play the game--if it doesn't draw me in or it makes me fight it every inch of the way--chances are I'm not going ot play it. Don't have the time to spend unraveling arcana these days. Lemme spend my time on strategy or tactics, or logistics, not on figuring out an interface.

Caveat: Ain't played this one, and probably won't given its issues with resoution and such.



Rainbow7 -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 3:38:00 AM)

As a playtester, I can't remember anyone saying they didn't understand the interface.  Many of us were confused over some elements of the game early on, but we were all "labouring" without even a simple manual in the first few months.  Speaking for myself, I never considered the interface an impediment to playing this game.  Quite the contrary, I find it fairly simple and straight forward.  But each to his own.  I'm only writing this message because, frankly, I was surprised to see so many comments on this topic (especially since most of the screens - though not all - recently appeared in screen shots).



TheBlackhorse -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 3:43:55 AM)

The interface isn't nearly as bad as some make it out to be.  This game has tremendous depth and is quite a bit of fun to play. It will take time to master the nuances of this gem.




Rob Brennan UK -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 4:39:44 AM)

OK I havnt bought this game yet but i will for several reasons

1) WW1 .. cant remember a strategic ww1 game ever on the PC
2) I tend to trust matrix. they dont back real dogs ( bar 1 one game )
3) interface [&:] why is that a problem , you want to find a good game then try and get over any superficial problems and we are all intelligent people (ish) no mario cart types here.witP has a nasty interface on the face of it , but it's provided me with years of fun and it's still updated and supported ( thank you matrix) so why not think that GOA will get the very same care and attention for post release. Frank Hunter seems to be a dedicated aficianado and as long as he is involved then we should be thankful it's not an EA or SEGA as they do not get any post release feedback or indeed patches.
4) i will be getting this title tomorrow ( tad late here ) and then i can discuss the ins and outs of the detail.
5) no one has said that " germany wins in 1914" yet . that i think is a good indicator

ok ill informed opinion over[:D]



Szilard -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 4:43:01 AM)

My early thoughts:

- There's likely a very good game in here.
- The manual is poor. The game probably has enough potential to make it worthwhile for Matrix to redo it. In the meantime, Matrix/Hunter should do a paper tutorial ASAP.
- The play mechanics are fairly unforgivingly phase-based. I guess probably not a lot to be done about this, but maybe possible to add a layer to lead (new?) players through the phases & prompt them (eg: "If you want to ship troops this turn, remember to assign transports now" etc etc).
- Personally, my main probs with the screen are: (a) clunky scrolling mechanics (b) lack of a playable zoom-out level - I want to be able to do the whole French front without scrolling.

Anyway, I like it enough so far to put some time into getting more comfortable with it.



*Lava* -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 5:09:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard

- The manual is poor.


The problem with the manual is not that it doesn't explain the functions of the game, it is that it doesn't walk you through how the game is played and in that order.

Gameplay wise that manual first hits on the tactical play and then explains all the components of the strategic phase (without actually calling it that). It's a bit back assward. A clearer way to explain the game in the manual would have been to explain the different phases as they are actually encountered in the game (strategic followed by tactic).

Ray (alias Lava)



LarryP -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 6:26:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

carnifex, understood and I agree completely. An interface should not prevent you from playing. The thing is, I make the interface quite simple so as to avoid extra work when playing. When you're spending hours and hours trying to find a problem in the AI it doesn't take long to become frustrated with an interface. I play my games over and over and so I like simple and functional when it comes to the interface.

At times I find areas that I dislike and I do spend time rewriting that code, trying to make it smoother and quicker. But what I find easy to use is not necessarily what others find easy to use and that's the rub. I tend to stick to the old way of doing things simply because that's what I'm used to. I do rely a lot on feedback but perhaps I need to spend more time looking at other people's interfaces and not remain so comfortable with my own.


Frank;

I haven't bought your game, but I want to say your being here answering questions means a lot to this long time Matrix customer. I was beginning to think the developer would not show up. Your attitude shows compassion and your explanations are very informative. I too am a programmer but without the talent you have for making games tick underneath. Kudos to you! [&o]



SMK-at-work -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 7:00:24 AM)

Frank has been on this forum for years before you newbies turned up!![8|]



LarryP -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 7:08:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Frank has been on this forum for years before you newbies turned up!![8|]


I'm glad to hear it. Thank you for enlightening this 52 year-old "newbie." My statement above still holds true.



06 Maestro -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 7:45:58 AM)

Well. I just had to buy this game to see what the ruckus was about. I’ve been playing for about two hours now and have found that the interface is not difficult to learn, nor does it seem redundant in any way. I’ve only made it to December of ’14; so far, this seems like a decent representation of the conflict on a strategic level.

One nice thing about the windowed screen is you are free to move the screen, or move your cursor out of the game-handy if you use two monitors.

I use a 21’’ LCD (900x1400 native). This screen resolution thingy should be addressed. I’m not a techy so have no idea how difficult it is to modify program screen size choices (*scalability?). All I can say is that if it is doable, it should be done-ASAP. I changed the screen resolution on my monitor to get max size on the map. It doesn’t look bad, but slightly stretched. I’ suppose I could change my monitor back and forth, but that should not be necessary in this day and age.

The phase/turn system is a new experience for me. A full one turn tutorial would have saved me a few restarts.

Overall, I like this game and have little doubt I will get my moneys’ worth.
So, Thanks F. Hunter, just don’t slow down yet.



AU Tiger_MatrixForum -> Par for the Course (7/25/2007 8:13:36 AM)

The next time a game is released without seeing massive griping by a select few in the first few days will be the first. Have I bought the game yet? No. Will I? Yes, absolutely, when I have time to learn a new game, and possibly after a patch or two, if necessary.

"PITA" interface? So what if it is? WitP has the worst interface for a game I have seen since "Stellar Empires" on my old TRS-80, but is the best game I have played to date. If you want Bells and Whistles, go play Myst, SIMS: Frat Party, or whatever other RPG the rest of the world is playing now. If you want a solid wargame, stick with Matrix IMHO.

Relinquishing my soapbox now.....



Berkut -> RE: Par for the Course (7/25/2007 4:19:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

The next time a game is released without seeing massive griping by a select few in the first few days will be the first. Have I bought the game yet? No. Will I? Yes, absolutely, when I have time to learn a new game, and possibly after a patch or two, if necessary.

"PITA" interface? So what if it is? WitP has the worst interface for a game I have seen since "Stellar Empires" on my old TRS-80, but is the best game I have played to date. If you want Bells and Whistles, go play Myst, SIMS: Frat Party, or whatever other RPG the rest of the world is playing now. If you want a solid wargame, stick with Matrix IMHO.

Relinquishing my soapbox now.....



Point taken about WitP. But realise that no amtter how great the game behind WitP was, it never had any chance of really getting the number of people playing it it deserved because of that interface.

Believe it or not, you can have a great wargame with a good interface. It isn't impossible, or mutually exclusive. This attitude that we should all be content with interface design that does not meet the basic standards of the platform is nnot going to get anything changed, and this hobby will continue to be the niche it has been - even while there is something of a renaissance in wargaming going on in the non-PC world.



*Lava* -> RE: Par for the Course (7/25/2007 4:31:26 PM)

@Berkut

Why are you bringing your crusade here?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with GoA.

Ray (alias Lava)



coreymas -> RE: Par for the Course (7/25/2007 4:37:30 PM)

If he wants to crusade let him.  His arguements are well thought out and not disrespectful. 

And Berkut there is a gaming company out there that does get both gameplay and interface decently right -- but i wont mention them here on this forum.

Corey



LarryP -> RE: Par for the Course (7/25/2007 5:44:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

"PITA" interface? So what if it is? WitP has the worst interface for a game I have seen since "Stellar Empires" on my old TRS-80, but is the best game I have played to date. If you want Bells and Whistles, go play Myst, SIMS: Frat Party, or whatever other RPG the rest of the world is playing now. If you want a solid wargame, stick with Matrix IMHO.

Relinquishing my soapbox now.....


I have Company Of Heroes and that has all the bells and whistles. However, like you said and I agree totally, WitP is much more fun than COH. I go back to WitP, WPO, and UV when I want to feel like I used my brain and not just my eyes. [;)]

I don't own this GoA game yet, but after a while I might. I'm reading the posts.



TheHellPatrol -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 8:13:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Frank has been on this forum for years before you newbies turned up!![8|]


I'm glad to hear it. Thank you for enlightening this 52 year-old "newbie." My statement above still holds true.

[:@]HEY!!! Who you callin' a newbie CHUMP? You can call me names but leave LarryP alone[:-][:D][;)]



FrankHunter -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 8:35:50 PM)

Thanks for the criticism guys, I am going to give it a good go about doing something about the screen resolution issue at least.




flintlock -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 8:41:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

I am going to give it a good go about doing something about the screen resolution issue at least.


Wonderful to read, Frank. I hope you're successful in your endeavors to augment the resolution options. That truly is quality support, many thanks.



TheHellPatrol -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 8:47:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Thanks for the criticism guys, I am going to give it a good go about doing something about the screen resolution issue at least.


Frankly i only use 1024x768...it's modern "enough" to where i can still be "hip" and yet see the screen. 800x600 is way retro LOL. I am glad to read though, aside from the bitching about the interface, that there is alot of deep gameplay in your creation. No bugs, crashes and the like...that is a good sign in this skeptical world[;)].



FrankHunter -> RE: The interface (7/25/2007 8:54:04 PM)

Thanks guys, we've been testing a very long time to try to catch every single bug.  Having said that its inevitible with so many now playing that one will pop up soon I'm sure.





Berkut -> RE: Par for the Course (7/25/2007 9:04:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

@Berkut

Why are you bringing your crusade here?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with GoA.

Ray (alias Lava)



This is the second time you have chosen to make what is not personal, personal.

There is no "crusade", just my opinion about a game I have purchased, just like you. I have as much right to post my opinion as you do, regardless of whether it is praise or constructive criticism. And frankly, IMO, well thought out criticism does much more to advance the hobby and the quality of the games than "there is absolutely nothing wrong with <insert favortie game here>".

If that is an issue for you, feel free to not read my posts.



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