Review @ Out of Eight

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JaguarUSF -> Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 3:24:29 PM)
A review of Guns of August has been posted at Out of Eight PC Game Reviews: http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/08/guns-of-august-1914-1918-review.html Let the fun begin!

Hanal -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 3:37:20 PM)
While I think he brought up some good positive points, my overall thought was that this reviewer is one lazy gamer...all of the negative management issues he brought up, I think make for a facinating and immersive experience. And this is not a knock on HoI, but that game should never be brought into a comparison with GoA....not a bad review (and his manual criticism is spot on) but he seems to want his gameplay spoon fed to him...

SMK-at-work -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 3:38:01 PM)
He gives it more than I give FPS's...[:D] Clearly he's not a wargamer - and yet he still manages to give it 5/8....I'm impressed that he recognises some good points, and curious what as to what he thinks should be the sound effects for a grand strategy game.....

hjaco -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 4:18:23 PM)
Well taken as a whole the reviewer is fairly accurate, although it would seem that he cut some corners at some points in the testing. One essential component missing is the simultaneous movement of single units on both sides though. That is not seen so often these days. He should although have stated in the beginning of the review, that he is in to grand strategy games on a grand strategy scale [;)]

06 Maestro -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 4:43:51 PM)
""Guns of August demands too much of the player.'' I find that a rather odd assesment. One of the things I like about this game is that it is simple, with little micromanagement required.

Moltke71 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 4:56:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro ""Guns of August demands too much of the player.'' I find that a rather odd assesment. One of the things I like about this game is that it is simple, with little micromanagement required. Demands too much? Maybe for the RTS crowd. Also, with a patch coming any hour now, he could have waited.

*Lava* -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 5:03:02 PM)
Well... Personally I also disagree that the game requires too much management. Once you have played a couple times, you can pretty much zoom through the administrative stuff and get right down to the important stuff of figuring out where to spend your resources and how you are going to implement your strategy. The fact that he didn't mention this is a WEGO game is a major omission and IMO a major selling point of the game. Overall, I have come to the conclusion that game complexity, to whatever extent, is seen today as a major drawback to game sales and reviews. The reviews reflect, I do believe, the general audiences desire for games with simple mechanics. I think we just have to understand that that is just the way things are. This trend towards very simple mechanics is now pretty mainstream. I believe for wargames to cater to a large audience, they must be able provide, not only simple mechanics, but several games in one, ranging from a very simplistic, very intuitive start (default of the game) to ever increasing complexity for the more ardent wargamers out there. Options.. options.. and more options is the way forward if wargaming wants to bring in new blood. But that... is a subject for a different and General Discussion thread... Ray (alias Lava)

PDiFolco -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 5:30:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work He gives it more than I give FPS's...[:D] Clearly he's not a wargamer - and yet he still manages to give it 5/8....I'm impressed that he recognises some good points, and curious what as to what he thinks should be the sound effects for a grand strategy game..... Untrue - he has played and reviewed all major and minor wargames out there since 2 years at OutOf8, and had played wargames since very long ago. It looks like he doesn't like much micromanaging hundreds of units, but neither do I and I'm also a wargamer...

captskillet -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 5:33:28 PM)
If he think thats micro-managing he aint seen WITP has he [;)] ?!?!?!?!

*Lava* -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 5:41:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PDiFolco It looks like he doesn't like much micromanaging hundreds of units, Actually... hundreds widely misses the mark. I believe Germany starts with something like 54 units in the 1914 campaign. And yes, indeed, they are "scattered around the map", but they tend to be concentrated in theaters of operations making them easy to find... at least for me. Juggling three major nations and a couple minor ones isn't so very difficult... at least for me. But I don't think this review was meant for folks like me. Ray (alias Lava)

SteveD64 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 6:21:47 PM)
There's almost no micro-managing in this game. The decisions you are making are appropropriate to the level this game portrays (with some fudging of course). Also, the computer keeps track of everything- you just have to make the decisions. This isn't a board game where you're moving chits along a national moral track. Anyway, the review is right about the manual. I could see this game getting a 6/8 but 5/8 is too low. For me it's 7/8.

themattcurtis -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 6:23:37 PM)
nope, sorry. this is the 2nd consecutive piece by this site that in my opinion just missed the mark. I just don't trust the effort he's putting into analyzing the games. Taste is one thing. Simply not bothering to look at a title in depth before publishing your thoughts as a "reviewer" is another. I used to refer to 8 out of 8. I'm learning not to.

TheBlackhorse -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 6:24:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PDiFolco quote: ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work He gives it more than I give FPS's...[:D] Clearly he's not a wargamer - and yet he still manages to give it 5/8....I'm impressed that he recognises some good points, and curious what as to what he thinks should be the sound effects for a grand strategy game..... Untrue - he has played and reviewed all major and minor wargames out there since 2 years at OutOf8, and had played wargames since very long ago. It looks like he doesn't like much micromanaging hundreds of units, but neither do I and I'm also a wargamer... I wonder how he views Forge of Freedom or ACW or Tiller's Campaign series, or heck almost 90% of all the Matrix Games catalog. Isn't wargamiing about managing hundreds of units? How does one not do so? Even the Airborne Assault series has managing of hundreds of units as an option... I suppose the Close Combat Series comes closest to not managing hundreds of units. but it's not strategic.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 6:35:49 PM)
In his defense, he is not at all anti-wargame and he has liked other wargames that I felt were as complex or more so than GOA. It looks like GOA just didn't quite hit his wargaming sweet spot and that certainly varies even among wargamers. FYI, the final version of the first update is being tested over the weekend and if everything looks good I expect a Tuesday release.

JaguarUSF -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 6:52:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Blackhorse06 I wonder how he views Forge of Freedom or ACW or Tiller's Campaign series http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2006/12/forge-of-freedom-american-civil-war.html http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/05/ageods-american-civil-war-review.html http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/07/john-tillers-campaign-series-review.html

JaguarUSF -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 7:03:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: themattcurtis nope, sorry. this is the 2nd consecutive piece by this site that in my opinion just missed the mark. I just don't trust the effort he's putting into analyzing the games. Taste is one thing. Simply not bothering to look at a title in depth before publishing your thoughts as a "reviewer" is another. I used to refer to 8 out of 8. I'm learning not to. Would you care to elaborate on the specific areas of the game I didn't bother to look at? quote: ORIGINAL: CLEVELAND There's almost no micro-managing in this game. Well, that may be a personal preference. As you might notice if you read my reviews with any regular consistency, I like games with fewer units rather than games where you have to control a bunch of units at once. You can see this in the Campaign Series review I linked to up above. However, if a game gives a good variety in size (like The Operational Art of War III review here http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2006/06/norm-kogers-operational-art-of-war-iii.html ) I'm willing to downgrade the importance of "overwhelming-ness." Some people will agree with my reviews and some won't, but just because my views differ from yours doesn't make me lazy. Opinions are allowed to be different; however, if I missed a feature of the game, then that's something that is my fault, but I am pretty sure I did not.

Panzeh -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 7:26:01 PM)
I actually agree that the game is wayyy too fiddly with the refit sysem. I am also of the opinion that fewer units is better, especially when fronts like France end up looking like huge messes of stacks. I do like the option to move corps wherever but I'd like to see a strategic game quick enough for TCP/IP or hotseat play. I dislike how every strategic game ends up being a PBEM game.

EUBanana -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 7:42:50 PM)
He seems like a bit of a prat. From another review he did :- quote: Resource management in Commander: Europe at War is a far cry from the 57 resources in Hearts of Iron 2 (this is hyperbole, or exaggeration for comedic effect; there are actually 72 resources) HoI2? isnt it power, oil, rare materials and steel? Even an RTS gamer can keep track of that. Specially as the only one that tends to matter is oil... He doesn't seem very consistent either, reading a few reviews.

SteveD64 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 7:50:00 PM)
The refit system may be fiddly and could be done better (although I have no ideas to offer), but the actual refits themselves force you to make a decision, whether to feed an offensive by concentrating refits or distribute evenly along the line and go back on the defensive. It's good stuff. I'm glad the reviewer popped in and appreciate his review. I don't necessarily disagree with his views but we may disagree on definitions (micromanaging vs overwhelmingness). Hopefully more sites will review this game and get the word out.

JaguarUSF -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 8:28:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CLEVELAND Hopefully more sites will review this game and get the word out. True that. It's sad the more "mainstream" sites completely ignore wargames.

*Lava* -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 8:39:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF Some people will agree with my reviews and some won't Figured you'd show up. [:@] Reviewing is a thankless chore... [;)] Ray (alias Lava)

EUBanana -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 8:52:15 PM)
I do think that a forum like this one is pretty good at getting the word out. It worked for me, anyway! I bought Uncommon Valour off the shelf on a whim one day - I didnt actually enjoy the game that much it has to be said, but it did direct me to this website. And the rest, as they say, is history...

TheHellPatrol -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 10:59:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: captskillet If he think thats micro-managing he aint seen WITP has he [;)] ?!?!?!?! [:D]I was just going to write that, micromanagement....Pfffffffffftttttttttt[8\|].

hjaco -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/11/2007 11:18:01 PM)
Yeah - try manually supplying allied bases in the pacific on a weekly basis and tell me about micromanaging [X(]

Akmatov -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/12/2007 1:37:39 AM)
The info on this game is a bit weak. Then I read the reviewer commenting that there are only 6 moves in each scenario!!!!! Just what is the time scale on GoA?

TheBlackhorse -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/12/2007 1:53:20 AM)
There are some errors in the review. There are more than 6 turns in a scenario. If you go from 1914-1919, you'll have significantly more. Each turn is 2 months, so each year will have 6 turns. What the reviewer may not have noticed is that when the end of the year arrives and the victory screen is presented, it is only snapshot of where one stands with victory at that time. The idea is that players select "continue" to fight until the end of the war. Either side can also sway Italy with Diplomacy, meaning Diplomacy is not locked in as stated in the review. HTH, BH

Akmatov -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/12/2007 2:29:28 AM)
Thanks BlackHorse6, was worried there for a bit [:)]

Lascar -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/12/2007 3:51:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Akmatov The info on this game is a bit weak. Then I read the reviewer commenting that there are only 6 moves in each scenario!!!!! Just what is the time scale on GoA? If would be unfortunate if anyone's purchasing decision for GoA would be significantly influenced by this review. This review is superficial in its analysis and misleading in its discription of GoA. Read the comments on this forum from those who have actually played this game in depth and who also have a good understanding of the history of WWI and therefore can better gauge how well GoA simulates the dynamics and the problems and challenges involved in making strategic decisions in that period. Lascar

hjaco -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/12/2007 8:53:19 AM)
Furthermore two essential points in GOA are missing in the review. First that moves are carried out simultaneously which opens up for a variety of tactics normally missing in most games. For example the possibility of caring out pincer movements when a hole in a front have been made. Then again your opponent may make a move you didn't anticipate [;)] Second the paranoia - and i mean real paranoia which rules when playing the 1914 scenario. Complete freedom in setting up on both sides combined with FOG and limited intelligence makes this a nail biter - especially against a human player.

JudgeDredd -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (8/12/2007 11:30:37 AM)
Here's my review....Damn good fun.

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