RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (Full Version)

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Canoerebel -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 5:26:33 PM)

I'm planning for the next phase.

Both Toyahara and Sapporo are large airbases (6 and 5, respectively), while Shikoku has a small airfield (level 1).  I have base force personnel at Shikoku and have moved two P-38J squadrons there from Honan in China.  Both of these units have elite and experienced pilots from fighting in Burma.  They both will fly 90% CAP to protect my carriers as they arrive in port (Shikoku is a level 4 port).

Toyohara and Sapporo do not have base personnel, but aircraft can operate from them.  Here's what I've moved there:

1)  Sapporo gets several PBM patrol squadrons from Tori Shima and Iwo Jima; two Corsair squadrons from Tori Shima set at 10% CAP (their mission is to fly escort duty); 6 PBY Liberator squadrons from Midway and Iwo Jima (about 60 bombers), 44 B-17Gs (from Midway), and 18 B-24s (from Iwo).  That gives Sapporo more than 120 bombers with about 40 escort fighters.

2)  Toyohara gets 9 PBY Liberator squardons (about 90 bombers), about 30 B-17s, and some PBM patrol squadrons (these came mostly from Kodiak Island and Anchorage).

I'll able to send in additional aircraft tomorrow.  Also, Adak Island serves as a good way point.

The weather forecast tomorrow for the North Pacific is thundershowers, and for the Arctic is blizzard, so I don't know if my bombers will fly missions, but here's hoping.  John had stripped his carriers of fighters and overloaded them with bombers since he knew my carriers were without fighters.  I would be overjoyed to find that this was still the case, but things may have changed.  That KB surface combat experience of yesterday, plus the presence of fighters at Toyahara, may have alerted him to his peril.



Jzanes -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 5:45:47 PM)

Very exciting stuff.  A screenshot would be wonderful.  Trying to keep track of all the bases and TFs in action is making my head spin.



Canoerebel -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 6:09:00 PM)

One final tweak for my plan.  The BB Washington TF that retired to Toyahara after engaging the KB in surface combat has replenished supplies.  It will move across the straits and seek out Jap ships at Wakkanai tonight, then make for Shikara.  It will be without CAP and thus in harm's way.  (To my surprise, BB Washington is still alive and has a chance of making it to Shikara - it has about 30% SYS and 60% FLT after taking six torpedoes).

I'll post some screen shots.



Blackhorse -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 6:15:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Toyohara and Sapporo do not have base personnel, but aircraft can operate from them.  Here's what I've moved there:


Yikes! How quickly will the # of ready aircraft decline without aviation support? Do you have any unloading/en route?

Great AAR, btw [&o]



Canoerebel -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 6:22:18 PM)

Without support those squadrons will lose airworthiness pretty quickly, but when would I get another such shot at the KB?  I think it is worth the risk.  If it doesn't pan out for a day or two, I can transfer the airworthy remainder back to better bases. 

I have three BF ashore at Shikoku, but unloading in the Cold Zone left them seriously disorganized and disrupted.  Only 50 are able to handle aircraft, so it doesn't do any good to try to get them to Toyahara or Sapporo.  I have an aviation regiment on the way.  Barring air attack or other troubles it will arrive in two days.

So my carriers go to Shikoku tonight.  If enough supplies land, I could begin drawing replenishment aicraft tomorrow.  Having Allied carriers ready to go will make John's situation much more difficult, and would also make it easier for me to evacuate my carriers (they wouldn't be defenseless) should the need arise.

So I think there's still a fair chance of pulling something out here - I'm going to lose my hold on Sapporo fairly soon, but Allied LBA and carrier air could do alot of damage if things work out according to plan.



Canoerebel -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 6:28:29 PM)

Here's a screen shot of the opening clash between the BB Washington TF and three divisions of the KB. See preceeding posts for narrative.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/D077917F507C44D3AC3764B145C9FE58.jpg[/image]



Canoerebel -> Map of Hokkaido and Vicinity (7/14/2008 6:34:50 PM)

Here's the situation as of 12/11/43:

[image]local://upfiles/8143/B843E45B49554FC590117C8E11C6CDDE.jpg[/image]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Map of Hokkaido and Vicinity (7/14/2008 8:38:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's the situation as of 12/11/43:

[image]local://upfiles/8143/B843E45B49554FC590117C8E11C6CDDE.jpg[/image]


Who invited the Russians to Sapporo? The greedy sob's aren't content with Sakhalin and the Kuriles? I'm with Patton. I wouldn't trust the Commie bastards.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 8:40:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's a screen shot of the opening clash between the BB Washington TF and three divisions of the KB. See preceeding posts for narrative.

[image]local://upfiles/8143/D077917F507C44D3AC3764B145C9FE58.jpg[/image]


Wow..I imagine John nearly experienced sphincter failure when that screen popped up.



Canoerebel -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 9:27:35 PM)

Yes, you know it.  And the next two screens were just as bad for him.  BB Washington and plenty of CAs and CLs against a host of Jap carriers escorted by nothing bigger than a destroyer! 

One other thing I want to add here.  I don't mean to boast, but Lord knows I've had little enough to be proud of in this game, as John has whipped my fanny time-and-time-again from day one.

But a week ago in this game, a massive Allied invasion fleet was approaching Japanese home waters escorted by a big carrier TF.  My carriers then lost almost every single strike aircraft, and a heck of alot of fighters (all told something over 700 aircraft), while the Japs lost less than 200 fighters.  I was toast.  An invasion fleet left defenseless far from home, with no hope of success.

Somehow, out of that carnage, the Allies have since destroyed more than 1000 Japanese carrier aircraft, lots of LBA, have sunk at least one CVL, put a torpedo in a CV, damaged a bunch of carriers in surface combat, and took Sapporo, two bases on Sikhalin Island, two of the Kuriles, two of the Aleutians, and are about to take the small base south of Paramushiro Jira.  Given where I was, that's a pretty impressive tally of accomplishment.

There's still time and opportunity for this novice (relatively speaking) to mess up, or for things to otherwise come unraveled, but this has been a blast!



VSWG -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 9:41:18 PM)

[sm=00000613.gif]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

1)  TF vs. KB Round One:  The Allied TF closes with a TF comprised of DDs, CV Taiho, CVL Chitose, and CVL Chiyoda.  The Allies cripple or sink Chiyoda and five DDs.

2)  TF vs. KB Round Two:  The Allies get a few hits on CV Hiryu doing light damage, miss Soryu, and cripple or damage three DDs.

3)  TF vs. KB Round Three:  CVL Zuiho and CVEs Taiyo and Kaiyo take a few hits doing probably no more than light damage; no its on CVE Shinyo; two DDs sunk or crippled.

4)  TF v. KB Round Four:  CVE Chuyo takes light damage with other CVEs and CVLs (including Ryujo) escaping.  Three DDs are sunk or crippled.

Even a small amount of sys/flt/fire damage decreases the efficiency of an carrier, so all these hits are important! If I were your opponent, I wouldn't use a carrier until is has put out all fires and has no flt damage.

All you need to pull replacement planes is 20,000 supplies at a base. HQs only matter if this condition is not met. It should work...

Speaking of HQs, have you brought any?



Canoerebel -> RE: Combat TF Tangles with the KB (7/14/2008 9:51:37 PM)

Yes, the invasion included HQ, though they have ended up in bits and pieces at odd places due to everything that has happened.  At the moment I have:

Hakodate:  6th Army HQ and V Amphibous Corps.
Shikuka:  Part of I Amphibious Corps (thes rest is aboard transports heading that way)
Adak Island:  III Corps (part of 11th Air Force HQ is about to arrive, but only two elements; goodness knows where the rest of the unit ended up; I'll try to find it).



Canoerebel -> Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/14/2008 10:06:19 PM)

Gentlemen, I just received an email from John as follows:

"The war is done.  Despite everything things are now cast.  Your 100s of LASER-EYE 4EB did the job that no Carrier planes could..." I haven't looked at anything yet, but my heart is racing.  I think my plan worked... 



Canoerebel -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/14/2008 10:13:48 PM)

Darn, I think John is overreacting!  There was a big surface engagement at Wakkanai with lots of damage to both sides; don't know who won that yet.  As for the Jap carriers, only a few hits as follows:

Day Air attack on TF at 70,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 32
B-17G Fortress x 23
PB4Y Liberator x 27
B-24D Liberator x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-17G Fortress: 2 damaged
PB4Y Liberator: 6 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu
CVE Unyo
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 1
CVL Ryujo

Day Air attack on TF at 70,39

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 4
B-17E Fortress x 16
PB4Y Liberator x 54

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 9 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 11,  on fire,  heavy damage
CVE Unyo, Bomb hits 3,  on fire
CVL Ryujo
CV Soryu

A sub took a couple of shots at CV Amagi and missed.

This doesn't look like all that big a deal to me (unless that surface engagement the turn before caused more damage than expected).

But I will say this.  John stripped his carriers of fighters and has had them sailing around in contested waters for days.  That's reckless behavior.



Q-Ball -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/14/2008 10:37:18 PM)

But I will say this. John stripped his carriers of fighters and has had them sailing around in contested waters for days. That's reckless behavior.

Excellent point. If you don't want your CV's sunk, try having a CAP of more than 6 fighters. Looks like Hiryu is toast. His CV forces have been seriously degraded by damage and planes losses.



Nachoz -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/14/2008 10:54:01 PM)

Any more info? [&:]

You guys should really sell this as a script to hollywood....



ny59giants -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/14/2008 11:41:14 PM)

Dan,
Both you and John need to slow down to only one or two turns per day for some time and allow the emotions of the last few weeks of game time (since you left Iwo Jima with this invasion force) to work themselves out. I got part of the PM he just sent you and feel that a slow down will help sort things out. I told him basically the same thing via PM and on his AAR.

Semi-Retired Japanese Economics Minister Benoit
but, full time counselor [:D]





Panther Bait -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/14/2008 11:45:36 PM)

Great AAR! I have been enjoying it a lot. 

Since he stripped all the strike aircraft to kill all your carrier aircraft, he shouldn't complain when he tried to reverse the trick (strip all the fighters) and got burned.




Canoerebel -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 12:09:33 AM)

Well, I've finished the combat replay now.  Here are a few other bits of information and comments:

1.  CV Hiryu took at least four 2,000 pounders and at something like seven 500 pounders.  She suffered an "ammo storage" explosion and many "critical hits."  I think she's toast.  CVE Unyo took three 500 pounders with "critical hit" reports, so she's out for awhile.  I think the solo hit on Soryu was a 500 pounder of not much consequence.

2.  The Jap CVs were on the way back down the east coast of Japan, probably to Tokyo or Osaka.  I need to get some PBY Liberators back to Iwo to pound those ports (well, that won't happen because John has plenty of good fighters).

3.  In the surface combat action at Wakkani, the Allied TF featured a few CAs and CLs with DDs; the Japs had three BBs (Nagato, Hyuga, Mutsu) and some DDs.  The Allies finished off the DDs (at least five of them) and did some paint-scraping damage to the BBs.  CA Astoria went down and several DDs suffered minor/moderate damage, but the rest of the fleet is in good shape.  John has lost alot of DDs the past two days - the KB's surface combat problems, this action, and John lost six or seven yesterday in surface combat up at Shikoku.

4.  My carriers arrived at Shikoku, which now has 13,000 supplies with alot more to unload.  I can't replenish air squadrons yet, but I should be able to tomorrow.

5.  I'll leave the big bomber squadrons at Sapporo and Toyohara one more day in hopes of getting in another blow, then I'll evacuate whatever can still fly (it won't be much).

6.  A big aviation regiment is about to unload at Shikoku.  I hope to send part of that to Toyahara and air transport some to Sapporo (mainly to try to get some of those planes that will be out of commission operational again so that they can be flown out; then I'll see if I can use the base offensively again).

7.  The Allies took Onnekota Jima (just south of Paramushiro Jima), but it is a level zero airbase at the moment (it can be built up to a 4).  But that gives John another thing to do.  The Allies also took Kiska, which is a zero airbase too.  An aviation regiment, seabees, and an EAB unit are landing at Atka, which is currently a level one airfield.  Even though it's winter, my engineers should get it to level two in a month or less.  This base can handle the maximum number of planes.

8.  The Japs already have three divisions and a mixed brigade unloaded at Hakodate, joining 7th Division there.  So the Jap counter-offensive will soon begin.

9.  3rd Marines are marching east from Sapporo to take Ashigara and then to take a stab at taking Wakkanai.  A much smaller unit is marching a hex south toward Hakodate to try to open the line of retreat for the units there.  That's a critical mission.  If my Hakodate units can pull out in good order, the combined Allied army at Sapporo will be something like 900 AV, which will require some time and attention from the Japs.  That time buys me time to straighten things out elsewhere - get my carriers replenished and then probably work on getting some of the damaged ships (like CV Hancock) back to safety.

10.  Down in the Anadaman Sea between Sabang and Port Blair, the Royal Navy CVs applied the coup-de-gras to CL Kiso and another Jap DD.  This was a very successful cruise for the British carriers.  Sinking Musashi was a major victory.

11.  I think John's demoralization is temporary.  The sinking of Hiryu is not a game-changing event, so I expect he'll recover morale quickly.  Besides, I think his concerns were based upon his overall worry about the Allies have bases up on Sakhalin Island.

12.  NYGiants, you're probably right.  This week has been intense for me.  The game has rendered me sleepless and has taken way too much attention at work.  I am exhausted.  I suppose John is too.  I told him late last week that it would be an act of mercy if he beat me so badly that I had no choice but to concede.



Canoerebel -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 12:19:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Dan,
Both you and John need to slow down to only one or two turns per day for some time and allow the emotions of the last few weeks of game time (since you left Iwo Jima with this invasion force) to work themselves out. I got part of the PM he just sent you and feel that a slow down will help sort things out. I told him basically the same thing via PM and on his AAR.

Semi-Retired Japanese Economics Minister Benoit
but, full time counselor [:D]



I should add that we're down to one or two turns a day for the past four or five days, because each turn is taking an incredible amount of time. The combat replays take more than an hour; planning takes a heck of alot more than that. But your point is well-taken. Too much time and energy is being drained by WitP.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 12:22:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Dan,
Both you and John need to slow down to only one or two turns per day for some time and allow the emotions of the last few weeks of game time (since you left Iwo Jima with this invasion force) to work themselves out. I got part of the PM he just sent you and feel that a slow down will help sort things out. I told him basically the same thing via PM and on his AAR.

Semi-Retired Japanese Economics Minister Benoit
but, full time counselor [:D]





Good work. Who are you going to bill?



ny59giants -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 12:31:56 AM)

quote:

Good work. Who are you going to bill?


The U.S. Government of course. [;)]

They're so far in debt right now, what's a few more hundred dollars. [8|]



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 12:54:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gentlemen, I just received an email from John as follows:

"The war is done.  Despite everything things are now cast.  Your 100s of LASER-EYE 4EB did the job that no Carrier planes could..." I haven't looked at anything yet, but my heart is racing.  I think my plan worked... 


Wait a minute..he sinks a hundred Allied ships..thousands of soldiers and sailors and Marines are lost at sea...nearly a thousand carrier aircraft and many hundreds of pilots.. half a dozen CVE's and CVL are lost, one CV wrecked, captured airfields are without support personnel, supply is critical, a division is cut off, your carriers still dont have aircraft and you have no transports to bring in supplies.......and he is going to pick up his marbles and go home? [X(] [:D]



desicat -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 1:03:36 AM)

Can you post the current score?



Canoerebel -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 2:25:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: desicat

Can you post the current score?


Japs: 46,707
Allies: 29,788

Despite the massive Allied losses taken in this invasion, the point spread has narrowed a bit. There will be some fluctuations - the Allies will lose Sapporo and 950 points in all likelihood, but will pick up some points for CV Hiryu.



Canoerebel -> RE: Has the Ambush of the KB Worked?! (7/15/2008 2:26:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gentlemen, I just received an email from John as follows:

"The war is done.  Despite everything things are now cast.  Your 100s of LASER-EYE 4EB did the job that no Carrier planes could..." I haven't looked at anything yet, but my heart is racing.  I think my plan worked... 


Wait a minute..he sinks a hundred Allied ships..thousands of soldiers and sailors and Marines are lost at sea...nearly a thousand carrier aircraft and many hundreds of pilots.. half a dozen CVE's and CVL are lost, one CV wrecked, captured airfields are without support personnel, supply is critical, a division is cut off, your carriers still dont have aircraft and you have no transports to bring in supplies.......and he is going to pick up his marbles and go home? [X(] [:D]



Durn, CAP, you really pay attention to what's going on. Please, PLEASE don't send your thoughts to John. It will renew his energy and drive.



Canoerebel -> Allies Offer Armistice (7/15/2008 3:37:54 AM)

Dear Reader, I have delivered an offer of armistice to my opponent as follows:

John,

I don't know about you, but I am exhausted.  I was totally useless today at work.  I went for a long run up Lavender Mountain this evening to sort through things and here's what I come up with:

I offer you an armistace on the following terms:

1.  We declare an armistice and stalement, with neither side winning or losing.  It's a tie!
2.  What I get out of it is the satisfaction that I didn't lose despite the horrible hole you put me into at the beginning of the game.
3.  What you get out of it is the satisfaction of not enduring the massive Allied build-up and onslaught and the decline of your hard-earned Empire.
4.  The Allies agree to end the oil embargo.
5.  The Japanese agree to withdraw from China, but may keep their pre-war territory in Manchuko and Korea.
6.  Other than that, both sides revert to pre-war territory.
7.  We then invade Russia; the Japanese get to keep all Russian oil, natural gas, and coal.  The Allies get all precious metals and Russian babes.
8.  Neither of us ever has regrets over ending the game.
9.  Neither of us ever claims or implies that we wish we hadn't quit the game because we probably would have won.  We both agree that we had plans, resources, and problems unique to both sides and that unforeseen events could have destroyed the best laid plans and derailed the most unstoppable momentum.  IE, we mutually agree that the outcome of the game was uncertain and that ending the game now was in our mutual best interests so that we can resume a normal life.
10.  I get to start my sabbatical from gaming to see if I can reclaim a sane lifestyle.
11.  You get to turn your focus to other things or to a fresh new game in which you can make sure the Japs run amock as only you can do.
12.  To prevent second thoughts and second-guessing, we immediately exchange passwords.  That will eliminate any temptation to renew the game (God forbid!).  Or, we can both send our passwords to NYGiants and he distributes them when he has them both.
13.  As soon as we both say, "I do" we may read each other's AAR.  That ought to take some time and open some eyes.
14.  If you do not wish to enter into an armistice, I solemly pledge to continue devoting the same time and energy to the game until the mutually agreed upon end or imposed ending.  IE, I won't drag my feet.

What say you, kind, noble, and most capable opponent?

Dan "Canoerebel" Roper
 
I'm half afraid he'll accept my offer and half afraid that he won't.  He has requested time to consider this.  I'll keep you posted.



Mistmatz -> RE: Allies Offer Armistice (7/15/2008 3:47:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

This is what I got from my Friend Dan Roper:



John,

I don't know about you, but I am exhausted. I was totally useless today at work. I went for a long run up Lavender Mountain this evening to sort through things and here's what I come up with:

I offer you an armistace on the following terms:

1. We declare an armistice and stalement, with neither side winning or losing. It's a tie!
2. What I get out of it is the satisfaction that I didn't lose despite the horrible hole you put me into at the beginning of the game.
3. What you get out of it is the satisfaction of not enduring the massive Allied build-up and onslaught and the decline of your hard-earned Empire.
4. The Allies agree to end the oil embargo.
5. The Japanese agree to withdraw from China, but may keep their pre-war territory in Manchuko and Korea.
6. Other than that, both sides revert to pre-war territory.
7. We then invade Russia; the Japanese get to keep all Russian oil, natural gas, and coal. The Allies get all precious metals and Russian babes.
8. Neither of us ever has regrets over ending the game.
9. Neither of us ever claims or implies that we wish we hadn't quit the game because we probably would have won. We both agree that we had plans, resources, and problems unique to both sides and that unforeseen events could have destroyed the best laid plans and derailed the most unstoppable momentum. IE, we mutually agree that the outcome of the game was uncertain and that ending the game now was in our mutual best interests so that we can resume a normal life.
10. I get to start my sabbatical from gaming to see if I can reclaim a sane lifestyle.
11. You get to turn your focus to other things or to a fresh new game in which you can make sure the Japs run amock as only you can do.
12. To prevent second thoughts and second-guessing, we immediately exchange passwords. That will eliminate any temptation to renew the game (God forbid!). Or, we can both send our passwords to NYGiants and he distributes them when he has them both.
13. As soon as we both say, "I do" we may read each other's AAR. That ought to take some time and open some eyes.
14. If you do not wish to enter into an armistice, I solemly pledge to continue devoting the same time and energy to the game until the mutually agreed upon end or imposed ending. IE, I won't drag my feet.

What say you, kind, noble, and most capable opponent?

Dan "Canoerebel" Roper




It should be quite obvious that I and probably all the other readers of your and Canoerebels AAR would not be happy if you decided to call the game a draw. On the other hand I understand very well how much time this game can consume, how demanding it can be and how it can affect real life.

Either way, the two of you provided a hell of a show and I'd like to thank you both for hours of great entertainment. Thank you John and Dan. [:)]


---

The above is what I just posted in Johns AAR. Just thougth you should see this as well.
Regarding item 7 I wanted to ask if you're going to share some of the babes with us readers. I mean there must be millions of them and propably you cannot make use of all of them, right? [;)]



Canoerebel -> RE: Allies Offer Armistice (7/15/2008 3:56:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

The above is what I just posted in Johns AAR. Just thougth you should see this as well.
Regarding item 7 I wanted to ask if you're going to share some of the babes with us readers. I mean there must be millions of them and propably you cannot make use of all of them, right? [;)]


Okay, as long as my babe is Lara from Dr. Zhivago, I'll equitably distribute other babes among the fine folks who inhabit the forum. However, I'm not bequeathing one to CapMandrake because I'm afraid Stalker Girl would be pissed and might turn on me.



pat.casey -> RE: Allies Offer Armistice (7/15/2008 12:54:21 PM)

Too bad to see you guys stop (since this was one of the most interesting AAR's I've read in quite a while), but if you guys are done, you gotta stop. Way too much gets invested in a game like this to drag it out if it's not fun anymore (for either party).



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