RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (Full Version)

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Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 11:19:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

If he gets a good look at the TF's then KB might react and seek to trap them against the 'edge of the world' [I always knew the world was flat!] in the Indian ocean Left of Java.



YEs, i know...but actually isn't a plan to do right now...it is something to be done IF, and only IF, the KB is busy defending the pacific!
However i'll try to simulate it...by the end of May i'll try to move out some empty ships from Aden, escorted by my 3 RN CVs+1 CVL and some BBs...keeping the edge of the Aden Channell and see what he does...then i'll go back before the KB can return... This should give him some strong headhaces...seeing the whole RN coming out of Aden!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/13/42

Another horrible day in China. His tanks are pushing forward (1hex/day) from Changsha towards Tuyun...the pocket is closed and i barely have 2000 undersupplied AVs to stop those dreaded thanks and at the same time guarding Tsuyung from those 3500 AVs coming from Liuchow...[:o]...really think that China is lost by now...my armies are struggling in the no-roads hexes in order to try to exit from the pocket, while his fast tanks are closing the Gap...
In the north something weird happened...something that really pisses me off.
My units that were at Yanktu have been ordered to march towards Sian.
The path is free, and marked as "A" hex...so to say a non-contested hex.
And what did my units do???? they moved from a contested hex (Yanktu) towards a Japanese Hex (East of Yanktu)!!!!...and now more 700 AVs are cut off!!!
This shouldn't happen...the ZOC code is clear...how is that possible !?!?!??!?!?![:@][:@][:@]

In the pacific, after my first recon flights over Marcus (2 thiny units there...probably a base force and a CD unit), the KB sailed from Truk...moving Northeastwards![:D]...as predicted.... as long as we keep the threat of an allied further advance in the pacific he won't be able to move back to the Indian Ocean his KB...

Now we'll wait untill the KB move a bit further, then we'll attack Ponape again!
My CVE Long Island is moving with a group of Cruisers towards Wake...just to let him think that my ideas for Marcus are sierious enough...already 20 empty transports are showing themselfs at Wake...they've been clearly spotted by his Glens, operating from some subs in the nearby....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 8
B-17E Fortress x 61
F-4 Lightning x 4


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged
F-4 Lightning: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
8 casualties reported

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 27

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 6

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Jalatarang, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-49 Helen bombing at 13000 feet

A lonely transport managed to get to Karachi unseen...he reacted just when we've already unloaded 800 supplies out of 1800....[:D]...not that i need those supplies (Karachi still has 266,000 supplies)...i just wanted to keep him Honest and let him feel unconfortable about the effectiveness of his blockade[;)]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 14
A-20B Boston x 15
B-25C Mitchell x 46
B-26B Marauder x 62
F-4 Lightning x 1


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
23 casualties reported

Port hits 2
Port supply hits 3


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 44,35 *His tanks push forward North of Changsha...*[:(]

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 8832 troops, 6 guns, 236 vehicles, Assault Value = 239

Defending force 11809 troops, 22 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 337

Japanese max assault: 446 - adjusted assault: 508

Allied max defense: 221 - adjusted defense: 9

Japanese assault odds: 56 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
44 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 2

Allied ground losses:
443 casualties reported
Guns lost 7


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!


I've ordered to reinforce The Aleutinas with a pair of RCTs and some Engeneers.
At the same time i'm sending the first units from the west coast to Oz...untill now Oz has relied only on its own forces...now it's time to strenghen a bit that theatre.
PM has been resupplied with 35,000 supplies...Seems that at Rabaul there are no Betties nor Zeros for the moment...


[image]local://upfiles/4162/37E69CE73A48492AB1450DBC1603779F.jpg[/image]




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 11:20:31 AM)

KB on the move!

[image]local://upfiles/4162/83B859A60D9741769FA75991C958FD0B.jpg[/image]




treespider -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 5:48:54 PM)

Any chance of sliding a few corps from the Hengchow pocket towards Wuchow to interdict his supply?

------


Although as you say China is likely lost since he already has India and can devote such a large % of his resources towards subduing the dragon.




Nomad -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 6:04:43 PM)

I agree with you General, this: In the north something weird happened...something that really pisses me off.
My units that were at Yanktu have been ordered to march towards Sian.
The path is free, and marked as "A" hex...so to say a non-contested hex.
And what did my units do???? they moved from a contested hex (Yanktu) towards a Japanese Hex (East of Yanktu)!!!!...and now more 700 AVs are cut off!!!
This shouldn't happen...the ZOC code is clear...how is that possible !?!?!??!?!?!


I know what is happening, but it shouldn't happen. The path you units are on is the shortest distance, movement point wise, from Yanktu to Sian. The pathing algorithim just ignores ZOC. It is something that started happening a few patches ago and has never been fixed. It is a real pain, I do hope AE fixes this problem.

Here is the real pain - often the unit will indicate that it is moving West and then when it does move, it decides that the closest way is East and moves that way. [&:][:@]




witpqs -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 10:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Here is the real pain - often the unit will indicate that it is moving West and then when it does move, it decides that the closest way is East and moves that way. [&:][:@]


This is one I found and reported a good while back:

- Give a unit movement orders.
- You will see that it takes the destination.
- You will also see that it sets an 'appropriate' direction of current travel. In our example, let's say South. (I say 'appropriate' with quotes to acknowledge that as you say, sometimes the route sucks!)
- Sometime during movement the unit is attacked by enemy LCU(s).
- Examine the unit after said attack, you (in many cases) will see that 1) the destination has remained as you set it, and 2) the direction of current travel will have changed to East! Always East! and 3) the miles traveled will be (apparently) correct.

This problem with the current direction of travel being wrong will be true even if the unit was retreated during said attack! Also be advised that it is not just a display problem as the unit will move to the East when it accumulates 60 miles.

The only good news - if you re-issue the movement orders the current direction of travel will go back to what it 'should' be (was initially) and the miles traveled will be retained! Caution: Just re-issue the orders directly, meaning do not try to 'cancel out' the bad movement by setting unit to defend - only click "Set Destination" and then click on the very same destination again. Only in that way will the unit retain the miles traveled.




Nomad -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 10:07:40 PM)

The problem for me is that I really do not have the time or want to have to go back and check every LCU to see if it decided to reverse its travel. But, I will try your suggestion and see what happens, thank you.




witpqs -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 10:10:35 PM)

I know, but at least this bug is limited to ones that get smacked up side of the head.




Nomad -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/16/2008 10:12:36 PM)

Then again, what happens if an LCU has travelled 59 miles and get attacked during the turn? Will it change direction? ARGHHHHH.

Sorry General, but I have no idea how to fix your problem. Maybe move them east and attack?




racndoc -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/17/2008 12:38:55 PM)

Hey GH....

sorry to hear about the "dreaded thanks" in China....lol.

Im also having problems with units resetting their movement orders....ie the road my units are following runs SW but inexplicably my units decide to move offroad to the east....you really do need to check the movement orders virtually every turn.....sigh....


Kinda bummed about your carrier battle in the Marshalls....in my stock games 2 years ago I had the same issues...ie my F4Fs would all escort maybe 30-40 TBDs in an airstrike with no hits and then 170 SBDs would enter the "Valley of the shadow of death" with no escorts and be destroyed to the last plane......now I always place all my CVs in single CV TFs and I generally get decent strike missions.....but the main result is.....Ive never lost more than 1 CV by splitting them up. Meanwhile...most of the IJN flight decks get closed and you can annihilate them on subsequent turns. Everyone on the forums talks about torps as ship killers but Ive routinely taken 2 torps in a CV and still had the flight decks open...2 1000 lb bombs on a Jap flight deck and its closed.




witpqs -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/17/2008 1:10:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Then again, what happens if an LCU has travelled 59 miles and get attacked during the turn? Will it change direction? ARGHHHHH.

Sorry General, but I have no idea how to fix your problem. Maybe move them east and attack?


Combat is after movement. So, you will always have a chance to catch it in the next orders phase. It does mean that you must check every LCU with movement orders after they have been attacked.




Bogo Mil -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/18/2008 10:02:04 AM)

Let's look at the strategic situation now: The Japanese have very strong economy with all those Indian bases. They can afford to accelerate many of their ships and will outproduce the Allies big time with aircraft. Since you have PDU on, these will be all the best models. And they have still enough to build large stockpiles of everything for late war use.

If I was the Japanese, I would not activate Russia now. Why should I? Russia is a tempting option if you don't have all these Indian ressource centers, but now?

I would shut the Chinese down: Kill as many LCUs as possible and build a short front which is easy to maintain. Maybe the line Liuchow-Changsha, maybe Kweiyang-Changsha. That's exactly what Trollelite is doing now. Then I would release as many troops as possible for the defense in the east.

If he thinks like I do, Port Moresby is in grave danger. If he takes it (and maybe Thursday Island, too),  he has a very good defensive  position in New Guinea with almost no Allied LBA around. The Torres Strait would be completely closed and thus the DEI would be save as well.


I really dont't think you can win the war in the Central Pacific. Today you don't have the CVs, and tomorrow this area will be heavily defended. Japan outproduces you and has PDU on, so you will probably never be able to do many big operations with only CV support. Now you don't have the CVs, later your navy pilots and hellcat production will be limited. I have read PzB's AAR - he defeated the Navy Air Force even without PDU. He sucessfully defended both the Marianas and Iwo Shima. You NEED the LBA support everywhere, and thus you should avoid to go anywhere without supporting bases nearby.
 
Thus I want to advertise an operation in New Guinea again. It is the best area for an offensive with heavy LBA support later. And - more important now - it is a defensive manoeuvre which giveses you bases supporting PM. Don't waste any units in "diversions". Everything you place in bases within Japanese LBA range and outside Allied LBA range is doomed for little to no gain. An operation against Timor might be possible if he really activates the Russians, but if he doesn't - there is nothing to win. Recently I counted hexes: Amboina is 10 hexes away from both Darwin and Kendari. Thus it can not be supported and it can not threaten Kendari with escorted strikes (Even the P38 has only 9 hexes extended range), thus it would be both doomed and useless - no go, whatever happens elsewhere.


By the way, if you use CV task forces again: You should always use at least one BB in every TF. More is better. Try to raise the AAA rating of these TFs as high as possible. A strong Alliied flak can be devastating to these fragile Japanese planes, even before proximity fuses arrive.




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/18/2008 3:40:37 PM)

Hi guys. I've been away for the whole week end.
Time to uptade 2 turns....
Well...the disasters go even further...
A part from China, where my defences are crumbling like a cards-castle, in the pacific Japan managed to inflict another serious defeat to the idiot allies.
The bait of Marcus Isl. didn't work. He moved first towards Marcus with the Kb as soon as i started to recon the base from Wake, but, despite the HUGE concentration of ships i've deployed at Wake in order to make him believe that the threat over Marcus was serious, the very next turn he moved back his KB, just to be within 6 hexes of range of Eniwetok...result? 100 bombers (exp avgof 70!!!)launched several strikes, escorted only by some P-48s...100 planes lost the first day against a 400 (YES, FOUR HUNDRED!!!) zero CAP...[:(]...he lost only 7 zeros...no comment[:o]...The next day i ordered my bombers to remain at 5 hexes...he came in at 5 hexes from Eniwetok...result? Not a single B-25,B-26 or B-17 launched...only 32 Beauforts..escorted by 70 P-40Bs.... The rest remained in the barracks for no reason... and not a single bomber got through, nor a single plane survived...in 2 days 200 planes lost, killing only 12 enemy planes...a rate which is hard to believe!!!![:(]
Now...against 400 enemy CAP i cannot hope to do anything...i simply have to abbandon any idea of an attrition battle and any advance in the centpac....

As soon as i get to job i'll post the combat txt...and comment all your posts...

This war is becoming a continuous defeat...[:o]




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/18/2008 3:50:17 PM)

[:o]Here we go...the first day...

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/14/42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 52,97*coming back from PM to Brisbane...*

Japanese Ships
SS I-174, hits 4,  on fire

Allied Ships
MSW Townsville
MSW Cessnock
PC Sans Peur
SC Quesnel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,76

It's clear that this move was just to eliminate my air force...he didn't want to attack my ships at Eniwetok..not now at least...[:@]

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 23[X(]
A6M2 Zero x 314[X(]
A6M3 Zero x 26[X(]

Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 4
B-25C Mitchell x 7
B-26B Marauder x 6
P-38F Lightning x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 13 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 4 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 6 destroyed
B-26B Marauder: 6 destroyed
P-38F Lightning: 5 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,76

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 17
A6M2 Zero x 314
A6M3 Zero x 26

Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 4
A-20B Boston x 9
B-25C Mitchell x 20
B-26B Marauder x 27
P-38F Lightning x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 45 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 4 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 6 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 10 destroyed
B-26B Marauder: 20 destroyed
P-38F Lightning: 11 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,76

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 13
A6M2 Zero x 230
A6M3 Zero x 22

Allied aircraft
Hudson I x 6
B-25C Mitchell x 12
B-26B Marauder x 15
P-38F Lightning x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 17 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson I: 5 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged
B-26B Marauder: 4 destroyed, 7 damaged
P-38F Lightning: 2 destroyed


Not a single B-17s took off....[:(]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 20,2

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 7
Ki-49 Helen x 11

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Jalatarang, Bomb hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage


This lonely ship managed to bring to Karachi 1300 supplies...[:D]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 52,98 *same TF coming back from PM...*

Japanese Ships
SS I-4, hits 8

Allied Ships
AK Florence Luckenbach, Torpedo hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage  *sinks*
AK Birminghan City
AK Arizonan
MSW Townsville
MSW Cessnock
PC Sans Peur
SC Quesnel
SC Edmundston


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 43,35

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 8774 troops, 5 guns, 234 vehicles, Assault Value = 237

Defending force 8191 troops, 9 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 229

Japanese max assault: 446 - adjusted assault: 298

Allied max defense: 149 - adjusted defense: 39

Japanese assault odds: 7 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
58 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 3

Allied ground losses:
484 casualties reported
Guns lost 4


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

His tanks in China keep on advancing...now the pocket is closed[:(]




And this is the second day...another slaughter[:o]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/15/42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 14
A6M2 Zero x 264
A6M3 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 3
P-40B Tomahawk x 9
P-40E Warhawk x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort I: 3 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 9 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 14
A6M2 Zero x 263
A6M3 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 12
P-40B Tomahawk x 25
P-40E Warhawk x 9
P-38F Lightning x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 14 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort I: 12 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 25 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 9 destroyed
P-38F Lightning: 2 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 13
A6M2 Zero x 255
A6M3 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 3
P-40B Tomahawk x 20
P-40E Warhawk x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2-N Rufe: 1 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 8 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort I: 3 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 20 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 4 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 13
A6M2 Zero x 247
A6M3 Zero x 27

Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 3
P-40B Tomahawk x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort I: 3 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 2 destroyed


I've lost ever P-40Bs...almost 50% of my fighter force at Eniwetok....i'm really depressed[>:]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 72,77

Japanese aircraft
A6M2-N Rufe x 9
A6M2 Zero x 205
A6M3 Zero x 26

Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 6
P-40B Tomahawk x 16
P-40E Warhawk x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed, 8 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort I: 6 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 16 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 2 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 42,35

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 8878 troops, 7 guns, 238 vehicles, Assault Value = 241

Defending force 7882 troops, 8 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 175

Japanese max assault: 456 - adjusted assault: 201

Allied max defense: 118 - adjusted defense: 9

Japanese assault odds: 22 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
95 casualties reported
Guns lost 2
Vehicles lost 4

Allied ground losses:
562 casualties reported
Guns lost 2


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Ok, his tanks are now in the heart of China...Which is lost...[:o]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Yangku

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 30363 troops, 119 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 590

Defending force 0 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Japanese max assault: 1186 - adjusted assault: 1988

Allied max defense: 0 - adjusted defense: 1

Japanese assault odds: 1988 to 1



Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Yes, and this closed the door for 750 of my units in the north...due to the bug we've seen....[:-]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kweiyang

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 3431 troops, 23 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 69

Defending force 7064 troops, 29 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 165

Japanese max assault: 88 - adjusted assault: 16

Allied max defense: 163 - adjusted defense: 179

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 4)


Japanese ground losses:
483 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Allied ground losses:
25 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

His Paras aren't pushed back, so now the door to Chungking is closed.[:@]




hades1001 -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (2/18/2008 4:32:22 PM)

Today is predicted on page 35[:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

This mod works well simulating the small amount of aircrafts may break through the cap by a term called "leakage"

however, there is no way that a horde of bombers can break through the cap without much escorts.

small number may made 1 or 2 hits with luck, there is no major damage can be achieved.

another issue is, what's the range did set all your bombers?

my KB will stay at least 5 hex away to avoid the torpedo bombers. Your B25 and 4E doesn't have much chance to make a coordinated stirke.
They will be demolished one wave after another. AND, withing the safe distance the zeros on carriers may even can sweep your base, kill most of your green hand wildcats and whatever other caps. Thus I don't think it is wise to keep your cvs in Eniwetok.

This is classical technic in STOCK GAME. But we still need more examples to prove this theory in Scen 160. Just remind you, hope you good luck.

PS.
I'm now deploying the first turn against trollelite.








Bogo Mil -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (2/18/2008 5:36:41 PM)

The P40B seems to be a bad plane in this mod. If they are outnumbered, they are completely helpless. I play as Japanese against the KI. Some Zeroes and Oscars (one Daitai of each) shot down all the AVG and the entire pool of this type with sweeps from Mektilia (sp?) to Mandalay, losing only 4 or 5 Oscars and one Zero in the process. And the AVG is the most experienced fighter group the Allies have in the early war, Zero bonus does not apply.

In the long term, it is a good thing for you that he uses so many planes on CAP now. You can do the same later, and he can not complain any more. [:D]





Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (2/19/2008 12:27:42 AM)

So it's pointless to try to stop the Japs...? Better to sir robin untill Hellcats come out?...i don't like that option too...

He always seems a step beyond me...every move of mine becomes a boomerang:[:(]

However...look at the situation in China...the pocket is now closed...and we have the whole Chinese army trapped!!!.....China is lost. Point.

[image]local://upfiles/4162/D33E24BF6DEF4F16BC582ED24A6338EC.jpg[/image]




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 12:29:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

Let's look at the strategic situation now: The Japanese have very strong economy with all those Indian bases. They can afford to accelerate many of their ships and will outproduce the Allies big time with aircraft. Since you have PDU on, these will be all the best models. And they have still enough to build large stockpiles of everything for late war use.

If I was the Japanese, I would not activate Russia now. Why should I? Russia is a tempting option if you don't have all these Indian ressource centers, but now?

I would shut the Chinese down: Kill as many LCUs as possible and build a short front which is easy to maintain. Maybe the line Liuchow-Changsha, maybe Kweiyang-Changsha. That's exactly what Trollelite is doing now. Then I would release as many troops as possible for the defense in the east.

If he thinks like I do, Port Moresby is in grave danger. If he takes it (and maybe Thursday Island, too),  he has a very good defensive  position in New Guinea with almost no Allied LBA around. The Torres Strait would be completely closed and thus the DEI would be save as well.


I really dont't think you can win the war in the Central Pacific. Today you don't have the CVs, and tomorrow this area will be heavily defended. Japan outproduces you and has PDU on, so you will probably never be able to do many big operations with only CV support. Now you don't have the CVs, later your navy pilots and hellcat production will be limited. I have read PzB's AAR - he defeated the Navy Air Force even without PDU. He sucessfully defended both the Marianas and Iwo Shima. You NEED the LBA support everywhere, and thus you should avoid to go anywhere without supporting bases nearby.
 
Thus I want to advertise an operation in New Guinea again. It is the best area for an offensive with heavy LBA support later. And - more important now - it is a defensive manoeuvre which giveses you bases supporting PM. Don't waste any units in "diversions". Everything you place in bases within Japanese LBA range and outside Allied LBA range is doomed for little to no gain. An operation against Timor might be possible if he really activates the Russians, but if he doesn't - there is nothing to win. Recently I counted hexes: Amboina is 10 hexes away from both Darwin and Kendari. Thus it can not be supported and it can not threaten Kendari with escorted strikes (Even the P38 has only 9 hexes extended range), thus it would be both doomed and useless - no go, whatever happens elsewhere.


By the way, if you use CV task forces again: You should always use at least one BB in every TF. More is better. Try to raise the AAA rating of these TFs as high as possible. A strong Alliied flak can be devastating to these fragile Japanese planes, even before proximity fuses arrive.



Your analysis is right Bogo.
Americal Division is already enrouted towards New Guinea from PH, along with some base forces and Eng...
Let's see if we can start back...




heenanc -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 1:14:44 AM)

If it makes you feel any better my lose's seem a lot better to me now :-(




1275psi -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 1:28:38 AM)

hey general

What in the world is the difference between your troops this game(chinese ones) and the supermen you have in our game[8|][:D]

comparing this game to ours really shows one thing

Im the suckiest Land combat player in WITP full stop!

keep fighting mate.
How are your SS going in this game?




ctangus -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 3:57:52 AM)

In my CHS game against aztez I just experienced a movement bug in North China similar to the one you did. I had a small number of units at Kalgan. They were low on supply so I tried to withdraw them to the NW. Next time I looked at them they were in Peking! [X(]

It's not as strong a force as you have trapped - I'd be willing to have it destroyed at this point to be honest - but because of the movement bug my opponent is going to let them withdraw unmolested. I've had good luck in my draw of opponents so far & this is yet another example.

Anyway, can you just say - hey, it was a bug. I was withdrawing at your request. Give me free passage back to Yenan? It wouldn't save all of China but might buy you a few months in the north.




Bogo Mil -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 9:14:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1275psi
What in the world is the difference between your troops this game(chinese ones) and the supermen you have in our game[8|][:D]

Trollelite probably brings big amounts of supply to China. So his air force can do hundreds of sorties every day and the army is still moving and fighting all the time. If you rely solely on the production of the Chinese resource centres, you are much weaker.




Bogo Mil -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 10:06:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
Your analysis is right Bogo.

I'm glad to hear that. [:)]
quote:


Americal Division is already enrouted towards New Guinea from PH, along with some base forces and Eng...
Let's see if we can start back...

I would not go farther to the north than Lae, now. You don't have carriers, and you don't know Trollelite's plans. I think it is important to build some good airbases in the south first.

You should be able to build that little dot between of Cooktown and Thursday Island (I forgot it's name), too. Australian engineers can do that, you don't have to pay PPs and it helps in the defense of the Torres Strait.
You might build Merauke and Thursday Island as well, but you don't have retreat paths there, so this is a bit more risky.

Some weeks ago you had the plan to grab the Solomones back with a small company or so. How is that going?




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 2:08:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
Your analysis is right Bogo.

I'm glad to hear that. [:)]
quote:


Americal Division is already enrouted towards New Guinea from PH, along with some base forces and Eng...
Let's see if we can start back...

I would not go farther to the north than Lae, now. You don't have carriers, and you don't know Trollelite's plans. I think it is important to build some good airbases in the south first.

You should be able to build that little dot between of Cooktown and Thursday Island (I forgot it's name), too. Australian engineers can do that, you don't have to pay PPs and it helps in the defense of the Torres Strait.
You might build Merauke and Thursday Island as well, but you don't have retreat paths there, so this is a bit more risky.

Some weeks ago you had the plan to grab the Solomones back with a small company or so. How is that going?


Reinforce PM and Noumea for now it is my objective. Nothing more.
My units in Oz are a bit off-placed so i won't be able to build fast anything in the NorthEast because most of my units are in the North and near Perth.
However i'm already moving troops from West Coast.

The reconquest of the solomons proceeds slowly, because i'm still organizing transports and troops in Oz. However it is in my Agenda.

The operation Babylon proceeds. Let's see how far i can go there before the KB comes back into the I.O.




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 2:19:33 PM)

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/16/42

We managed to push back some tanks and a narrow passage is open again for maybe some 1000 AVs at Tsuyung (sp?)...however we do not have many hopes...too many planes, too many troops...no way to get out of the great pocket without any free road to use...

At Karachi my mines never hit anything....CAs on the run again!...Karachi status is down to 261,000 supplies...

The KB is still lingering at 5 hexes NW of Eniwetok....my 2 CVs are at Wotje today...moving back towards PH along with some surface TFs...

220 fighters at Eniwetok and 300 bombers ready...again: not bad, but never enough[:(]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CA Kako
CA Aoba
CA Mogami
CA Takao


Allied ground losses:
6262 casualties reported
Guns lost 63

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 41
Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 42,34

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 37614 troops, 152 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 882

Defending force 2840 troops, 0 guns, 78 vehicles, Assault Value = 79

Allied max assault: 766 - adjusted assault: 726

Japanese max defense: 79 - adjusted defense: 261

Allied assault odds: 2 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
163 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 2

Allied ground losses:
183 casualties reported
Guns lost 9


Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!
Jap tanks pushed back near Tsuyung.....[:)]...a little breath of fresh air...




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 2:26:36 PM)

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[image]local://upfiles/4162/2E7DE32B5A534954AA7D19D4FF10607B.jpg[/image]




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/19/2008 2:33:26 PM)

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[image]local://upfiles/4162/5B4F254F0F294BE4BC4B6F849A92F250.jpg[/image]




treespider -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (2/19/2008 2:44:01 PM)

On the plus side the units in Kweilin and Hengchow are still receiving 1500 supply points per month.

If you consider them lost anyway - why not launch a counterattack out of Kweilin to the hex SW adjacent to Wuchow and cut his supply line?

With India lost and his ability to bring extra units into China ....China will be a foregone conclusion anyway...


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

So it's pointless to try to stop the Japs...? Better to sir robin untill Hellcats come out?...i don't like that option too...

He always seems a step beyond me...every move of mine becomes a boomerang:[:(]

However...look at the situation in China...the pocket is now closed...and we have the whole Chinese army trapped!!!.....China is lost. Point.

[image]local://upfiles/4162/D33E24BF6DEF4F16BC582ED24A6338EC.jpg[/image]





treespider -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (2/19/2008 2:48:08 PM)

With KB seemingly loaded with fighters what is he using to attack shipping?




Nemo121 -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (2/19/2008 3:23:20 PM)

He will have a few attack birds on KB but really what you've just seen is excellent tactical and operational subjugation to the strategic and national policy level objectives.

His national policy objective is to take DEI, India, China and then, probably, Oz whilst holding the US Navy and aerial forces at a distance.

Strategically therefore he has sought to cripple a portion of the US fleet at PH whilst waiting for an opportunity to cripple the carriers in follow-on operations during the same period of time as his army and minor naval forces clear India/DEI etc. He will then swing east and establish a defensive line somewhere in the Pacific ( a line in which none of his bases can be reached by your P-38s or P-51s when you get them so that any reduction of his bases will have to be by unescorted bombers --- very, very costly.)

Strategically his goal was NOT to kill transports and troops here. He identified the critical weakness of the US fleet as being its lack of CVs and identified his own critical weakness as being a long-term lack of CVs. As such his real mission was to kill the  enemy CVs whilst protecting his own.


So, operationally after watching that long, slow and utterly predictable advance ( no offence Hoepner but a less well prepared slashing attack at a critical weakness would have served you better ) he conspired to fight an operationally defensive battle at a point and time of his choosing within the strategic US offensive ( kinda like Lee did in 1862 in most places ) and further loaded the dice in favour of his CV's survival by tactically cramming more fighters onto his decks at the expense of strike groups.


Its all very manoeuvrist and actually quite Soviet... I'd be really interested to know just how much Tukhachevsky Trollelite has read. He definitely does min/max and exploit the game loopholes BUT I'd wager that he would play a mean game of chess too ( where min/maxing and loopholes are non-existent). Let's not forget that he's not one-dimensional in terms of ability. Min/maxing doesn't mean he can't analyse a situation and come up with an appropriate doctrinal response ( albeit that I imagine his doctrine is much more slanted towards Soviet doctrine than western doctrine ).

Since I'm going to be playing him soon ( I'm holding off on the turn until his Praktikums are done ) I don't think its appropriate to be giving shedloads of advice etc BUT I think that if you look at what he did from a Soviet doctrinal perspective his behaviour is actually highly understandable and reasonable and the clear subjugation of each level of warfare ( the tactical to the operational, the operational to the strategic and the strategic to the national policy objective level ) is clear and undeniable.




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (2/19/2008 3:51:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

He will have a few attack birds on KB but really what you've just seen is excellent tactical and operational subjugation to the strategic and national policy level objectives.

His national policy objective is to take DEI, India, China and then, probably, Oz whilst holding the US Navy and aerial forces at a distance.

Strategically therefore he has sought to cripple a portion of the US fleet at PH whilst waiting for an opportunity to cripple the carriers in follow-on operations during the same period of time as his army and minor naval forces clear India/DEI etc. He will then swing east and establish a defensive line somewhere in the Pacific ( a line in which none of his bases can be reached by your P-38s or P-51s when you get them so that any reduction of his bases will have to be by unescorted bombers --- very, very costly.)

Strategically his goal was NOT to kill transports and troops here. He identified the critical weakness of the US fleet as being its lack of CVs and identified his own critical weakness as being a long-term lack of CVs. As such his real mission was to kill the  enemy CVs whilst protecting his own.


So, operationally after watching that long, slow and utterly predictable advance ( no offence Hoepner but a less well prepared slashing attack at a critical weakness would have served you better ) he conspired to fight an operationally defensive battle at a point and time of his choosing within the strategic US offensive ( kinda like Lee did in 1862 in most places ) and further loaded the dice in favour of his CV's survival by tactically cramming more fighters onto his decks at the expense of strike groups.


Its all very manoeuvrist and actually quite Soviet... I'd be really interested to know just how much Tukhachevsky Trollelite has read. He definitely does min/max and exploit the game loopholes BUT I'd wager that he would play a mean game of chess too ( where min/maxing and loopholes are non-existent). Let's not forget that he's not one-dimensional in terms of ability. Min/maxing doesn't mean he can't analyse a situation and come up with an appropriate doctrinal response ( albeit that I imagine his doctrine is much more slanted towards Soviet doctrine than western doctrine ).

Since I'm going to be playing him soon ( I'm holding off on the turn until his Praktikums are done ) I don't think its appropriate to be giving shedloads of advice etc BUT I think that if you look at what he did from a Soviet doctrinal perspective his behaviour is actually highly understandable and reasonable and the clear subjugation of each level of warfare ( the tactical to the operational, the operational to the strategic and the strategic to the national policy objective level ) is clear and undeniable.


Nemo, i completely agree with you.
Trollelite is playing a great match, both under startegical and tactical pov.
I've been predictable at Ponape. i know. I probably had to follow the same doctrine that led to the conquest of the Marshalls...coup de mains and surprise!
But i did not.
Not too late to regret and look over the past. Better to study a brand new strategy.
The pacific is where he's weak right now. The Kb is the only real weapon he has there. If the KB leaves the whole centpac will be under real pressure. So he cannot let the KB slip away untill my pressure there remains constant.
And, if the KB stays there, the RN can be transfered to Oz (maybe...i still have to study the possibilities here), along with a british army.
To take out the whole china he will need some time however.My goal now is to exploit this time-window and get into a good position. Ponape is the first Goal. PM the second one. The RN into the eastern oceans again the third...




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