RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (Full Version)

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John 3rd -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 8:09:35 AM)

THAT was one of the points I was going to make but the head started hurting!




Mike Scholl -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 9:34:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Mike,

I agree with your summary and that is what I get for rushing the posting instead of detailing it.

IF---you make a great comment with it and the English language---is the operational word. 

I had written a long set of detailed IFs regarding events of that morning and then started to get a headache and gave up.  It still seems fascinating to ask what would have happened if the two forces wiped each other out?  The Japanese would still have had about a half dozen CV/CVLs where the Americans would have only had Wasp.  There would have been Naval parody through early-1943.  No Guadalcanal to bleed the Japanese Naval Air Corps dry. Would have made for an interesting American counter-offensive!


Wait a minute..., you just sank the six fleet carriers! That puts a serious hole in the Japanese Naval Air Corps...., especially in the most difficult-to-train carrier pilots. Also the Wasp would be reinforced by the Saratoga before the Fall..., and the remaining Japanese CVL's/CVE's were relatively slow and inefficient vessels. Plus you have to figure that under the pressure of losing the other 4 CV's, Henry Kaiser would have gone into CVE production mode earlier. And the US Army Air Corps would undoubtedly sent a higher proportion of it's strength to the Pacific as well. I agree it would have certainly been a different situation..., but I don't think it would have been as "happy a time" for the Japanese as you suppose.










John 3rd -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 9:50:49 AM)

You are ruining all my fun thinking and hypotheticals!  [:D]

Your are clouding my world with FACTS and that makes my head hurt all the more...

To tell the truth, I hadn't thought about old Saratoga since she seemed to be a torpedo magnet for the first 18 months of the war.  Wonder how the crew felt missing all those actions?  I know that the Sara's pilots did quite well when they were bumped over to Guadalcanal.

New Thought:
With the groundbreaking work done in Shattered Sword, do you think there will be re-written naval histories coming out taking the Japanese aerial doctrine and CV practices into account and seeing the battles from a slightly different perspective?  I thought that was Shattered Swords most interesting area of contribution.  Have to admit that the detailed description of the attempts to save the CVs was excellent as well.




wild_Willie2 -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 11:03:54 AM)

oh boy, what did you guys just made me do........

You just made me order Shattered Sword myself without even thinking about the 50$ it set me back....



Reg -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 12:44:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I actually consider "the turning point" to be where CPO Shun decked...

Oh wait.

Nevermind. [;)]

-F-


[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]



fcam1387 -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 12:53:11 PM)

Something similar is happening in my pbem game as the Japs, albeit a little earlier. I didn't put much effort into the Solomons (a grave mistake in hindsight) and my opponent decided to make his stand there. While my forces are superior, the sheer weight of Allied numbers has had a borderline disastrous effect on my air and sea power. I did not intend on this becoming a decisive theatre of operation, but it did nonetheless. I am now paying dearly for it. Unless I get a major break pretty soon it's going to be all over for me relatively quickly.



Fishbed -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 2:23:42 PM)

quote:

Wait a minute..., you just sank the six fleet carriers! That puts a serious hole in the Japanese Naval Air Corps...., especially in the most difficult-to-train carrier pilots.

Actually Shattered Sword shows rather well than aircrew losses at Midway were rather small when compared to the tonnage they lost [:o]

I concour with SouthernAP on the attrition thing: Guadalcanal was the long battle which bled dead the IJN pilot pools, and new AAA aboard US ships had a great deal of responsability in this [:o]
Just checking Okumiya's testimony will show just how much they were suffering from these operations...



Joe D. -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 3:36:30 PM)

I think the only solutions to these "what if" posts are the hypothetical "what if Midway didn't happen" scenarios in UV.

That said, IJ air wings were indigenous to their carriers, while US wings were interchangable w/any CV ; although the US lost a CV at Coral Sea, the IJ wings were decimated and could not quickly be replaced before Midway.

And yes, I got that from Shattered Sword; some local libraries order books for their patrons, and that can save you the $35 or so price tag.



Joe D. -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 3:51:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

... This is a good point, and it makes me wonder what would have happened if the the additional fighter cover from the other two IJN carriers had been available? Alas, only speculation is available.


While the strikes were rearming below deck, the only IJN planes available/being lauched at this time were CAP; however, many of them got pulled into what Sword called "Thach's Flying Circus." His innovative weave was puzzling -- if not lethal -- to the IJN CAP, and it quickly got a disproportionate amount of its attention.

Further, many Zeros had radios that were unreliable, and coordinating CAP was haphazzard at best fo the IJN flight officer who had only one freak for all planes, and way too much to do on deck coordinating take-offs and landings.



Fishbed -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 4:06:20 PM)

quote:


That said, IJ air wings were indigenous to their carriers, while US wings were interchangable w/any CV ; although the US lost a CV at Coral Sea, the IJ wings were decimated and could not quickly be replaced before Midway.

While Shattered Sword underlines this fact, it also underlines the complete lack of flexibility of the IJN command mind, together with its unbelievable self-confidence - had they have any doubt about the success of both MI and AL, they may have think about re-using Zuikaku with pieces of Shokaku airgroup. As you say, the US did that, using Saratoga aircrews to fill the Yorktown complement. To mix the flyboys wasn't common usage, but still they did it, because they thought they desperately needed it. But well IJN would only face "despair" after Midway. Sure they had suddenly no choice but to re-assign the hundreds carrier-less pilots they got from Midway to the few surviving airwings  [8|] [:o]



Mike Scholl -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 5:02:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

You are ruining all my fun thinking and hypotheticals!  [:D]

Your are clouding my world with FACTS and that makes my head hurt all the more...

To tell the truth, I hadn't thought about old Saratoga since she seemed to be a torpedo magnet for the first 18 months of the war.  Wonder how the crew felt missing all those actions?  I know that the Sara's pilots did quite well when they were bumped over to Guadalcanal.

New Thought:
With the groundbreaking work done in Shattered Sword, do you think there will be re-written naval histories coming out taking the Japanese aerial doctrine and CV practices into account and seeing the battles from a slightly different perspective?  I thought that was Shattered Swords most interesting area of contribution.  Have to admit that the detailed description of the attempts to save the CVs was excellent as well.




While I didn't agree with everything in it, and found it to be a bit pedantic in trying to force all data into it's conclusions; I thought SHATTERED SWORD was an excellent addition to the literature on the subject.
Got people considering a subject long regarded as closed.

Don't want to discourage your enthusiasm for what if's..., but you need to broaden your basis of consideration. The game already provides a really big one, in that the IJA and IJN AREN'T almost literally "at war" with each other. They cooperate with no fuss or agendas. I'd love to see a mod that corrected this. One with two Japanese players competing against one another against the AI. That would be interesting.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 6:26:25 PM)

One might also suggest that the real turning point in the war was when the P-38, Hellcat, Thunderbolt and Corsair each flew their first missions.  Each first was a deadly nail in the coffin for Japan.  Once the U.S. had unquestioned control of the skies, it was all over except for the fat geisha singing.



Joe D. -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 7:32:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

... The game already provides a really big one, in that the IJA and IJN AREN'T almost literally "at war" with each other. They cooperate with no fuss or agendas. I'd love to see a mod that corrected this. One with two Japanese players competing against one another against the AI. That would be interesting.


The old Koei PTO had a monthly meeting where the human player -- as the supreme naval commander -- had to compete for resources w/his (AI) counterparts in the other service branches and government. Koei modded this thru a "poker game" where you were dealt cards, such as "pass'," "no," "yes," etc., that were used in responding to various resource allocation demands by all at the table.




John 3rd -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/30/2007 8:14:30 PM)

I actually wish that the IJA--IJN friction could be modeled better.  Something like the transfer of any army unit to an 'army' theatre--Burma, China, Manchukuo and Philippines--is at this point price and the transfer to the South Pac, SE Pac, Cen Pac, and North Pac costs TWICE as much.  That would really reflect the competitive nature of things.  The IJN could start with X-amount of units for beginning operations then it takes LOTS of time (points) until you can get more.

This idea would really serve to slow aggressive players (like myself) from moving so quickly.




Kadrin -> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal (10/31/2007 9:36:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

The old Koei PTO had a monthly meeting where the human player -- as the supreme naval commander -- had to compete for resources w/his (AI) counterparts in the other service branches and government. Koei modded this thru a "poker game" where you were dealt cards, such as "pass'," "no," "yes," etc., that were used in responding to various resource allocation demands by all at the table.



I never played PTO, but I did play PTO 2, and I thought the little inter-service maneuvering to get more funds was nice. Though it did get a little extreme sometimes. (I managed to get every single country in the game to declare war on Japan once. Was nice seeing Bismark out in the Pacific shooting at Japanese ships. [:D])



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