RE: The B.S. Power of CD (Full Version)

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Panther Bait -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/2/2007 11:18:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


thought the Wehrmacht had better guns [&:]


I'm not the data guru that others here are, but I can tell ya Germany had some of the best direct fire weapons of the war.

However the U.S. had the edge in indirect fire, stemming all the way back to the end of the Civil War and leading all the way through today


I'd agree. Germany's indirect weapons were mostly mostly remakes of World War I artillery pieces, which were re-designed and first produced in the early to mid-30's, and I believe most of the re-design was in the carriages to take advantage of better available materials. I believe Germany was one of the first armies to use widespread organic gun artillery (75mm and up) at the sub-regiment level, though.

With the US's delayed entry to the war and lack of armament buildup until the very end, much of their artillery was designed/re-designed in the very late-30's/early 40's. The US also had excellent indirect ammunition, some of the best in the world.

Another huge advantage of the US was that all of its artillery was self-propelled or motorized. Germany had self-propelled artillery, but never enough. And it's towed artillery was typically horse-drawn.

I am not sure of the quality of the Russian artillery, but they sure had a lot of it!!!



wdolson -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/2/2007 11:49:23 PM)

Russian artillery generally had shorter range for the caliber than German or American artillery.  I believe their accuracy was also not as good.  They over came the lack of quality with quantity.

The US not only had the benefit of all motorized artillery, but also had the luxury of plentiful ammunition most of the time.  When possible, US doctrine was to pummel the enemy with stand off weapons then accept his surrender.

Bill



Mynok -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 1:01:05 AM)


Well...since the thread is hijacked.....[:D]

The US also had the best communications system in place for calling indirect quickly. Lots of radios with front line, low-level officers who were trained how to request FFEs.

Russian artillery, like much of their war machine, was based on "quantity had a quality all its own". [8D]



Nightcrawler1 -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 1:47:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Two days is still too long to be unloading.


What? Yikes! I've been doing it all wrong then. It takes my invasion forces an eternity to unload. Say, A week? Maybe more? I just thought that's the way it was.

Is there a rule of thumb so I can figure out how much transport I should have in an invasion?



rtrapasso -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 3:01:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nightcrawler1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Two days is still too long to be unloading.


What? Yikes! I've been doing it all wrong then. It takes my invasion forces an eternity to unload. Say, A week? Maybe more? I just thought that's the way it was.

Is there a rule of thumb so I can figure out how much transport I should have in an invasion?



Yes - there was just a thread about this YESTERDAY, iirc - number of vessels needed is (LOAD FACTOR)/400

EDIT: This allows you to unload your troops in 2 phases (1 day). You need to have additional vessels for supplies.

This information was seen yesterday in the source of all knowledge: The THREAD! [:D]



Nightcrawler1 -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 3:21:34 AM)

Oh, that The Thread thing.  I never knew what that was all about so I just ignored it.  I guess I'll have to delve in.

Of course, that info is probably in half a dozen other threads too if I had just done a search.  Thanks.



Feinder -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 3:24:14 AM)

You cant stop an invasion with out infantry defending.  Most CD units have only a marginal defense strength (if at all).  If you're stopped on the beach and losing guys it's because he as an INF unit there, not because of the CD unit.

-F-



ctangus -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 3:45:43 AM)

Against an atoll you certainly want to unload all your troops in one day. Multiple shock attacks without resting can gut your combat units. It's not quite as important against a non-atoll base, but it still helps.

I did some testing on this recently, since I'm currently on the offensive in 3 games. The testing probably could have been more thorough, but here's what I've concluded so far:

1. Troops, if they're in the lowest-numbered task force, will unload 1000 load points in the first day. For example a typical Marine division requires @24,000 AP load points or 35,000 LST load points. To ensure it unloads fully in a day you'll need to load it on 24+ APs or 35+ LSTs.

2. Troops, if they're in an additional (higher-numbered) task force unloading at the same time, mostly obey the same rules, but not always. I didn't do enough testing to isolate why, but TF #2 (or #3) doesn't always completely unload. It seems to unload 80-90% of its troops. To be safe add an extra 25% margin. So for the Marine Div example above you'd want to load it onto 30 APs or 44 LSTs.

3. Supplies unload at 200 points/phase or 400 points/day. However on an initial invasion supplies don't seem to unload during the first phase. On D-Day you get only 200 supply points per AK dedicated solely to supply transport.

Let's take that Marine Division again for example. At rest it might have a supply requirement of 1200. Combat doubles requirements so it will need 2400 supply for combat. To give it 2400 supply in one day of unloading you need 12 AKs solely dedicated to carrying supply.

I hope this makes some sense. It might seem like a lot of shipping - heck might be overkill - but I've had several successes & no failures applying these rules of thumb.



rtrapasso -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 3:59:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

You cant stop an invasion with out infantry defending.  Most CD units have only a marginal defense strength (if at all).  If you're stopped on the beach and losing guys it's because he as an INF unit there, not because of the CD unit.

-F-


The 7th USMC CD (which he said is opposing him) has 6 x 5" guns, 12 x 3 in AA guns, 12 x .50 cal MG, 12 x .303 MGs, 12 x USMC squads, and 60 support squads. Not sure what FA regiment is involved - possibly it has infantry, but i doubt it has much. The Base force could have considerable infantry with it...



Nightcrawler1 -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 4:15:12 AM)

In the time it took to find the answer on The THREAD, I got a more detailed answer here. Thanks ctangus.

I did get hypnotized by the shadow of a spinning dancer while I was there though, so that took extra time.



Mynok -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 4:47:02 AM)


The Thread will lead you to the promised land. Hypnotic it is. [:D]



John 3rd -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 9:48:44 AM)

Let me continue the pain of Pago-Pago.  With all this GREAT advice, I decided to land the 14th Brigade from China to augment the Infantry Division holding on by its fingernails.  On February 15, 1942, they go in to land.  I have enough AP to land them IN ONE LANDING with supplies.  There are several warships there to help with counter-bombardment.

What happens???

THEY ARE WIPED OUT!  I lose the entire unit BY ATTRITION that day.  The Shock Attack gets a 0-1 and I lose the ENTIRE UNIT.  This base has now accounted for 45,000 Japanese Casualties.

I am done with this.

Now what do you have to say!??  Am rather....(&*^&_^%^H:OI Y(Y*....




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 10:36:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Let me continue the pain of Pago-Pago.  With all this GREAT advice, I decided to land the 14th Brigade from China to augment the Infantry Division holding on by its fingernails.  On February 15, 1942, they go in to land.  I have enough AP to land them IN ONE LANDING with supplies.  There are several warships there to help with counter-bombardment.

What happens???

THEY ARE WIPED OUT!  I lose the entire unit BY ATTRITION that day.  The Shock Attack gets a 0-1 and I lose the ENTIRE UNIT.  This base has now accounted for 45,000 Japanese Casualties.

I am done with this.

Now what do you have to say!??  Am rather....(&*^&_^%^H:OI Y(Y*....





mmmm...this sounds even stranger...how can it be possible?? one entire brigade wiped out in a single shock attack lost?? Too much! Which scenario are u playing? You're sure it's not a strange mod?...Pago pago is well defended in CHS for example...but even there these results simply do not make any sense to me[&:]



String -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 1:45:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Yaaa...I remember how those 155MM did so well during the REAL war! [:@][:@]

Dan--You KNOW perfectly well what a China Brigade is! These guys got tired of being in smelly. cold China and changed their uniforms for Tropical attire!



Yes because noone sailed up, anchored and started unloading under their noses [:D]



String -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 1:47:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Let me continue the pain of Pago-Pago. With all this GREAT advice, I decided to land the 14th Brigade from China to augment the Infantry Division holding on by its fingernails. On February 15, 1942, they go in to land. I have enough AP to land them IN ONE LANDING with supplies. There are several warships there to help with counter-bombardment.

What happens???

THEY ARE WIPED OUT! I lose the entire unit BY ATTRITION that day. The Shock Attack gets a 0-1 and I lose the ENTIRE UNIT. This base has now accounted for 45,000 Japanese Casualties.

I am done with this.

Now what do you have to say!?? Am rather....(&*^&_^%^H:OI Y(Y*....




That indeed does sound strange. Can you post a screenshot of the combat screen and paste the combat resolution txt?



Canoerebel -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 4:57:17 PM)

John III and I are playing BigB Mod 1.40 with Scenario 191. 

I'm playing this this mod against Miller.  He, too, invaded Pago Pago, but under much different conditions.  In that game, I already had about 1300 AV totally dug in (9 forts) with 200k supply and all kinds of support troops.  He landed a division, but I don't recall the landing wreaking total havoc with his ships and men.  But a single division wasn't capable of handling the garrison, of course.

In this game, it's still early in the game (around Feb. 1, '42 when John first landed).  The garrison was a BF and a CD unit (both already in place when the game starts) and a FA regiment I diverted from Suva.  There are two forts and enough supplies, but not an overabundance.  John didn't do any pre-invasion bombardments or bombings.  Shoreguns decimated the invasion transports.  I think that started a cascade of problems - the troops came ashore in a weakened state due to shore guns, the automatic shock attack faired poorly, and then smaller units began disappearing by attrition.  I don't know whether John's troops were prepped.

Had the invasion been preceeded by bombardments and bombings, the results probably would have been much different.  At least that's my guess.



String -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 5:31:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

John III and I are playing BigB Mod 1.40 with Scenario 191.

I'm playing this this mod against Miller. He, too, invaded Pago Pago, but under much different conditions. In that game, I already had about 1300 AV totally dug in (9 forts) with 200k supply and all kinds of support troops. He landed a division, but I don't recall the landing wreaking total havoc with his ships and men. But a single division wasn't capable of handling the garrison, of course.

In this game, it's still early in the game (around Feb. 1, '42 when John first landed). The garrison was a BF and a CD unit (both already in place when the game starts) and a FA regiment I diverted from Suva. There are two forts and enough supplies, but not an overabundance. John didn't do any pre-invasion bombardments or bombings. Shoreguns decimated the invasion transports. I think that started a cascade of problems - the troops came ashore in a weakened state due to shore guns, the automatic shock attack faired poorly, and then smaller units began disappearing by attrition. I don't know whether John's troops were prepped.

Had the invasion been preceeded by bombardments and bombings, the results probably would have been much different. At least that's my guess.


So basically a horribly prepared and planned operation that ran into stiff opposition and was destroyed. No wonder..



John 3rd -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 5:45:19 PM)

No String.  Not true whatsoever.

The 1st Landing of a full Infantry Division and Engineering Regiment (30,000+ troops) featured them with a Prep of 55 for the base.  They landed against a force only marginally stronger then WAKE ISLAND.  Yes--there is that FA Unit but that is about the ONLY difference.

Wake usually falls when  a pair of of strong SNLF or Naval Guard units hit it.  With the Forts at 2 instead of 1, I landed with a force 5-6 times that strength.  What CRAP!  Add to that then the second Landing of 2 small base forces and an Artillery Regiment then, finally this Brigade. 

I rarely get mad at the game anymore but this is insanity.  One little garrision with, as detailed above, less then a dozen good-sized guns have managed to kill 40,000 Japanese and sink about 20 AP/AK.  I cannot believe it.  If I say anything more, this will be appropriately censored by our good webmasters...




seydlitz_slith -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 7:01:28 PM)

Now we know what island John Wayne is own in your game.



Big B -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 8:30:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner


Which scenario are u playing? You're sure it's not a strange mod?...


Just an FYI, in the mod he's playing Pago Pago does not start fortified or improved at all. Nor has the stats for a Field Artillery Regiment been altered in any way.

It sounds to me like some very unlucky die rolls, with misfortune compounding misfortune.

Also, remember that a FA Rgt has about the anti-ship firepower of two and half "Boise's" (36x 155's).

B



Yamato hugger -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 9:14:29 PM)

You MIGHT want to not land unsupported in the teeth of undisrupted coastal defense guns in the future.

Totally unrealistic? Look at the first invasion of Wake. That was what, 3 guns if I recall correctly? Japs learned a lesson and came back with a little more force the 2nd time. Hmmmmmmmm....

Unrealistic?



Nikademus -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 9:43:47 PM)

also, another good tactic is to change your invasion TF to "escort TF" so that the main transport force can contain BB's. BB's present in the actual landing force can greatly reduce the impact of CD's but suppressing them as well as taking some of the return fire which they can handle far better than a DD or AP.



String -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/3/2007 10:32:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

No String. Not true whatsoever.

The 1st Landing of a full Infantry Division and Engineering Regiment (30,000+ troops) featured them with a Prep of 55 for the base. They landed against a force only marginally stronger then WAKE ISLAND. Yes--there is that FA Unit but that is about the ONLY difference.

Wake usually falls when a pair of of strong SNLF or Naval Guard units hit it. With the Forts at 2 instead of 1, I landed with a force 5-6 times that strength. What CRAP! Add to that then the second Landing of 2 small base forces and an Artillery Regiment then, finally this Brigade.

I rarely get mad at the game anymore but this is insanity. One little garrision with, as detailed above, less then a dozen good-sized guns have managed to kill 40,000 Japanese and sink about 20 AP/AK. I cannot believe it. If I say anything more, this will be appropriately censored by our good webmasters...




As others have said, landing into a coastal defence of 40+ 5 and 6" guns with absolutely no naval gunfire support does not make for a well prepared and executed invasion.

I'm sorry but even if you suffered from bad die rolls you also screwed up yourself.

edit: Anyway, what is your excuse of landing a full division without ANY preliminary bombardment whatsoever. Neither from sea or air.

If you didn't have any carriers or surface warships available then why did you invade such a far away island in the first place, what if the allies had had a cruiser squadron lurking around, or what if the carriers were just 180 miles away, or what if they had greater forces on the island than you expected.... oh wait.



wdolson -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/4/2007 12:44:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

You MIGHT want to not land unsupported in the teeth of undisrupted coastal defense guns in the future.

Totally unrealistic? Look at the first invasion of Wake. That was what, 3 guns if I recall correctly? Japs learned a lesson and came back with a little more force the 2nd time. Hmmmmmmmm....

Unrealistic?


Wake showed how poor Japan was at amphibious operations. They're successes were almost always against unprepared or non-existent defenders. Wake's defenders were prepared, but very small. A large enough force crushed them the second time.

Bill



Nikademus -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/4/2007 2:44:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Wake showed how poor Japan was at amphibious operations. They're successes were almost always against unprepared or non-existent defenders. Wake's defenders were prepared, but very small. A large enough force crushed them the second time.

Bill


I'd have to disagree with that. Wake showed what could happen when an ill prepared "2nd Team" force with inadequate resources and support tries to assault an alerted and well defended atoll. In terms of the Japanese' successes, the reason why they were against non existant or lightly defended areas was due to doctrine. The Japanese were arguably the most proficient at Amphibious "Operations" which by definition are operations designed to be conducted against lightly or undefended locales. Japan, like the UK were unenthusiastic regarding the viability of Amphibious "Assault" [The taking of moderate to heavily defended coastlines] and thus didn't develop a detailed doctrine to conduct it. Only the USMC felt it was viable and it eventually did become viable once the kinks were worked out and the tools were developed to support it. (primary advanced landing craft that could fight their way in with a decent chance of survival.)



rtrapasso -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/4/2007 3:01:11 AM)

Even a single 75 mm unmolested artillery piece wreaked havoc on the IJ landings on Corregidor and almost caused failure of that landing. An intact artillery regiment with 155 mm guns would have been hell on any landing force without effective counterfire from ships with large caliber guns.



Nikademus -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/4/2007 3:08:43 AM)

being proficient doesn't mean things can't still go wrong. I seem to recall the 1st dedicated USMC attempt at Lunga was full of enough Snafu's that it was commented that it had been a good thing the landing was unopposed.

Corregidor i wouldn't exactly consider an Amphib Op but an Assault and things did go wrong for the Japanese in spades. Despite a fierce bombardment Homma's men made a key error in not accounting for the swift current encountered and thus missed their intended landing site by more than a mile with the result that they landed in the lap of a USMC Marine Battalion which took full advantage of a rising moon to hit them with everything they had. Only 600 men of the 2000 man force scrambled ashore but they did succeed in securing the Eastern end of the island.



Big B -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/4/2007 3:12:04 AM)

This all may be...

But I think the original point is that John unfortunately ran into a 'buzzsaw' that wasn't adequately supressed.



Nikademus -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/4/2007 3:14:37 AM)

I agree. Though the "trick" has been around for a while, i think there's still a large % of players out there who don't realize that one can finaggle the big guns of the BB into their invasion TF's which really do do wonders to suppress nasty CD's and beach facing arty.[via the "escort" TF formation] A refresh of the Atoll rules also sounded in order from what he described.




BrucePowers -> RE: The B.S. Power of CD (11/4/2007 3:31:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy




Another huge advantage of the US was that all of its artillery was self-propelled or motorized. Germany had self-propelled artillery, but never enough. And it's towed artillery was typically horse-drawn.




The figure I remember reading was that the German army was never more than 60 percent mechanized. I cannot quote a source,



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