RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (Full Version)

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wesy -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/24/2007 10:16:25 PM)

Going to your point here. I would read,Shattered Sword by Jon Parshall and Anthony Tully. Remember Japan was the first nation to fully grasp the carrier task force. Their doctrine of mass, coordinated airstrikes was revolutionary and has become the basis on which we (US) project power to this day. Japan was fighting the economic equivalent of Godzilla. There was no way Japan (or Germany) was going to win WWII.

That being said, many of their tactics/technology (and I mean tactics since they really lacked any "grand strategy") were very advanced by prewar standards and they tended to be dogmatic in their use of specific tactics (especially early in the war - i.e. the Ichiki dettachment @ Guadacanal, defend at the beach (until Peleliu and Iwo Jima). The Japanese surface engagements at night (Savo Island etc.) use of oxygen torpedoes (long lance) etc.

The US was quick to learn and make effective changes and use technology to it's advantage - think CIC (i.e. coordinated Radar coodinated CAP), Proximity fuses, coordinated artillery strikes (ask the germans specifcally about this one.), THE BEST search and fire control radar (think US DP 5" weapons - with proximity). Not to mention the war below the sea, where the US used its ability to break codes and use/coordinate a very very effective strangulation of Japan's strategic resources. Many of the Japanese tactics (later in the war) were of desperation. Kamikazes - enough planes, but not enough well trained pilots...really was a precursor to today's anti shipping missiles - think manned Harpoons.

And most importantly of all...the US also had the BEST logistical tail ANYWHERE - to move masses of troops to Europe, cover the I mean HUGE HUGE PTO with what seemed to the Axis powers of endless ordance, equipment and things like Ice Cream etc. was a sure sign to any sane individual that war with the US is hopeless cause in a symmetrical "total war".

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

New thought,

A lot of credit is given to Japanese prowess in battle because of the 800 year civil war that was fought there.
But, it seems to me that thier actions during WW2 displayed a lack of experience. For instance I have read veteran's accounts of Japanese soldiers refusing to take cover during artillery bombardments, they prefered to trust to carma. Their method of attack and blindly following orders (ie their first counter attack at Henderson Field, one regiment attacking a Marine div.?) Even their method of treating prisoners and internees?

I think that maybe there is too much credit given to Japan for that 800 year civil war and maybe not enough credit given to the west for their 3000 year civil war. (earliest formal war I can think of being Troy around 1200 BC).

Where am I wrong?




morvwilson -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/24/2007 10:31:33 PM)

I do agree with your posting but, maybe I did not make myself clear.
When I said "inexperience", maybe immature or unseasoned would be a better fit.

There were certain attitudes that the Japanese military had that would betray this.
For instance the coordination between different branches of their military was almost non existant. (the raid on Pearl Harbor for instance was never approved by their cabinet prior to the raid.)
Not surrendering for instance. While all armies during WW2 would say fight to the last man, Japan was the only one to do this.
Not taking cover and trusting to carma.
There was an attitude that asking for more men or material was a sign of weakness or cowardice(sp?).
If your infantry detatchment was told to leave a given island, they usually did not take their supplies with them.
While the Japanese did show a number of inovations, I think they lacked the seasoning or maturity that 3000 years of fighting in Europe supplied the west.



mjk428 -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/24/2007 10:35:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mlc82

On this point, I would think it more likely that in the past, one couldn't just hop on the internet and see a video posted of the civilians being slaughtered as one can now if so inclined. I would guess that this just wasn't widely shown/discussed outside of the militaries involved in WWII (or the people being bombed), plus at the time it wouldn't have been possible to skim over 6+ years of it in a history book. I would say there was actually LESS understanding, or at least no way for many to actually see what was happening to civilians.


They had newspapers, newsreels and radio. I'm quite sure that the average American was at least as well informed on world affairs as the average American now. They understood the context of the events. They also weren't as full of themselves as we are today.

quote:

Also, IMO the older style of propanganda just doesn't work anymore either. I'm thinking of WWII era posters from all sides depicting everyone from the opposing countries as savages, evil, etc. In the day and age in which I can log onto the internet and talk to people in almost any country, this sort of thing doesn't cut it anymore. You can't convince me that a whole nation of people are "bad" (although it isn't hard for me to believe that their leader(s) are charlatans using their people only for their own interests- and I feel the same about our supposed "leaders" here in the US as well) when I can log on and talk to some of them about playing computer games, bodybuilding, or whatever else hobbies that I share with them.


"Old Style" propaganda was seen for what it was here in this country*. Americans have always been cynical of their government. They did love FDR though. BTW, it doesn't matter if you're not convinced that the "other guys" are evil, if they're convinced you are. You're still in a fight for your life - and probably at a distinct disadvantage.

They didn't need to meet foreigners on the internet because many of them were first generation immigrants. I have family that died from both sides of the war. Generally, they were the people they were fighting - even some Japanese.

Happily humanitarian concerns didn't paralyze them into inaction. They did what they had to do, took a little pride in a job well done, and then got on with their lives.

Maybe someday we'll be able to be one big happy world family but as long as there are those with no interest in such there will be the need to violently oppose them. The really sad thing is that the one big happy world family is much more likely to happen through assimilation rather than us all suddenly stopping our evil ways.


*See the excerpt of the letter I posted re: dismissal of propaganda and views of the enemy from a typical US soldier.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1605591&mpage=2

I'll repost it here for convenience.

quote:

...I find myself hating these damn Jerries more and more. If I don't watch myself, I'll be asking to go back up there again. I suppose by
this time you people have seen pictures of what the Nazis did to these people of these countries over here. If you hear anybody say it's
just propaganda you can just call him a liar. Every bit of it's true and there were some things that couldn't be shown. I'm a pretty peace
loving guy, but what we saw over here made it possible for us to actually enjoy killing these Jerries. Usually when you shoot one your
stomach does a little flip and then settles down. No more tho. I've seen guys almost pray that some German would stick his head up. I guess
now the civilians have some idea as why there can be no deals made with our boy Adolph. He'll get his deal off the end of some G.I. rifle.
But enough of such morbid conversation...



Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 1:57:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

Now, what was it exactly that Curtis LeMay did to make this filthy race acceptable? I don't remember him being famous for bombing the IJA troops in the field... Truth is that you don't say much, but you sure do imply a lot.


Curtiss Lemay brought the reality of what the Japanese were doing to other people home to them. 1937 Japan was a nation full of warmongering fanatics who believed they were superior to everyone else on earth. 1946 Japan was a nation that no longer wanted anything to do with creating a fascist empire.

quote:

ALL of them???

Sorry...I see that you already answered that:


Same challenge to you that went to Superhuman Hortland - show me one area occupied by the Japanese where the people remember the experience fondly. There are countless thousands of Japanese and Germans who remember the American G.I.s who occupied their countries with admiration and respect. I personally met hundreds of them in 1970 era Bavaria. Many Germans who were children during the post war era thanked the Americans for preventing them from starving, as oppossed to the residents of eastern Germany and Triest who spit when ever a Russian or French soldier passed by.

quote:

Doggie: Yes. I would say that just about sums it up.


Yes, that does pretty much sum it up. Japanese soldiers were despised everywhere they set foot. For good reason. Even the French do not view the Germans with anywhere near the contempt with which the Japanese are regarded in every village the rising sun flag ever flew over.

Now how about some of you "humanitarians" back up your fantasies with some facts? Just once. Show us some people who were subjected to Japanese occupation who were grateful for the experience. There are streets in Belgium named after American soldiers. There are cemetaries all over Europe where citizens have 'adopted" the graves of American soldiers and tend to them some sixty years later. Show us a grave site for Japanese soldiers anywhere outside of Japan that does not also funtion as a urinal.

You can't. Because you have no facts. All you got is self rightous, hypocritical accusations of "racism" directed against the decendents of those who actually did confront racism and genocide while your ancestors did nothing.



KG Erwin -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 5:37:06 AM)

Curtis Lemay's decision to alter our bombing tactics and focus on fire-bombing had a neglible effect on Emperor Hirohito and his government. This WAS truly an evil regime.

We always go back to the atomic bomb argument, and yes, those WERE necessary to end the Pacific War.

That being said, Japan is now a valued ally. What's past is past. We have to let it go. Replaying old animosities is now done as entertainment.



wesy -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 7:43:02 AM)


Hi Morv - here IMHO are my answers to these questions:

1) I think you are using fairly broad generalizations (i.e. not taking cover) - Tarawa, Iwo Jima and other islands etc. were defended with significant defensive emplacements - to specifically try and nullify US bombardments and airstrikes. When you're defending a fairly small island, i don't care what country you're from, you're digging holes [;)]. Not taking cover...you could say that the European experience early in WWI should have taken note about the use of machine guns from the Russo-Japanese War (1904-05) and it's affect to light infrantry.

2) Coordination between "rival" services is typical amongst all countries, but I would agree that the Japanese took it to the extreme. Hey you could be Stalin and execute a significant number of your office cadre - i'm not so sure that was such a great idea. Or you could fault the US for basing the fleet in Pearl Harbor (did thousands of years of war in the west provide the US with the foresight of the US to have their fleet exposed?). I would say the tactical execution was rather good (sure you could argue that Nagumo should have hung around for another strike on fuel storage etc., but hey it's a lot easier to think about those things in hindsight, when you're not the one responsible for the task force [;)].

Another VERY IMPORTANT POINT you should be aware of was the military authority completely bypassed parliament. So in affect, they were like Blackwater (i.e. no accountability)

3) To your point about - not asking as a sign of weakness etc...as Donald Rumsfield recently stated at a US military base (i'm paraphrasing here so bare with me...) - "...you don't go to war with the army you want, but the army you have" (in response to us forces having to do field "upgrades" to APCs and Humvees etc. Sure you could ask for more, but let's face it, the Japanese were ALWAYS struggling with supplying their forces adequately - let alone asking for more...It's called a "stiff upper lip" in other cultures! It's a lot easier to ask for more when you have a fleet train and the logistical wherewithal to actually have the possibility of getting "more".

4) 3000 years of fighting in the West? What did the Italians learn from Cesaer? They struggled with the Ethiopians. What did Germany learn from WWI? Hmm...Let's get into another world conflict. uhh...it seemed they really learned little - sure you could argue, great training tactics, but hey let's invade the USSR. I'm not sure if they learned from Napolean...

One man's scorn for cover could be considered worthy...think about the silver, moh etc. It's doctrinal, fight to the death, sure i'd surrender, but if you're looking to slow an enemy from invading your country and your stuck on island with no hope of reinforcements, but the one day your forces hold out longer is another day from having your kids getting bombed a "bad" decision?

I would agree with you that it's wasteful, but I'm not sure what lessons those "thousands" of years of war in the west you're trying to point out.

At the end of the day, I'll use this example, the Japanese were like the IDF. The ability strike quickly with highly skilled forces. However, they completely lacked the industrial/technology base that the US had. Any prolonged conflict of attrition was doomed to failure.

I don't think you could say that it was thousands of years of warefare that doomed Japan, it was the perception that the US would not have the "will" to fight the war, misperceptions doom everyone throughout history of warfare.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson

I do agree with your posting but, maybe I did not make myself clear.
When I said "inexperience", maybe immature or unseasoned would be a better fit.

There were certain attitudes that the Japanese military had that would betray this.
For instance the coordination between different branches of their military was almost non existant. (the raid on Pearl Harbor for instance was never approved by their cabinet prior to the raid.)
Not surrendering for instance. While all armies during WW2 would say fight to the last man, Japan was the only one to do this.
Not taking cover and trusting to carma.
There was an attitude that asking for more men or material was a sign of weakness or cowardice(sp?).
If your infantry detatchment was told to leave a given island, they usually did not take their supplies with them.
While the Japanese did show a number of inovations, I think they lacked the seasoning or maturity that 3000 years of fighting in Europe supplied the west.




morvwilson -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 7:52:30 AM)

Points well taken, thanks. Guess my theory may need a little more work.



06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 9:14:56 AM)

wesy
 
You made a few good points, but a couple may be oversimpified.  There were some significant differences the Japanese and the western countries in both their methods of war, and in there expectation of victory.  The Axis nations were led to their destruction by arrogant, inept leadership.  There were plenty of professional leaders in Italy, and Germany that could clearly see the position they were in, but did not act to prevent disaster. 
 
The German General Staff was totally opposed to an invasion of Russia; even if they were optimistic about the outcome, it was viewed as unnecessary, and risky-even Goering was opposed to it.  Italian commanders openly remarked that walking through an army gun park (Italian) in 1939 was like walking through a museum.   (The Italian invasion of Ethiopia 4 years earlier was a walk in the park-first real “blitzkrieg”-unlike the earlier venture (in ’98?).   The point is, none of them were blind to the long history of warfare, but those that could still see clearly, were not running the show.
 
The one thing that the Axis did that the Allies did not do was to count on the superior qualities of their soldiers over the mere quantity of weaponry.  They (Axis) fairly consistently put their forces in hopeless positions with the expectation of victory because will power, individual courage, the Bushido code, whatever, was more important than proper supply, and/or modern weapons in adequate quantities.  This was one of the main results of their arrogant and racist philosophy. 
 
The same arrogance that led to military defeat also led to ill treatment of POW’s and civilians that fell under their control.  The Japanese were particularly predisposed to ill treatment of prisoners, as in their culture, and military code, surrender was unthinkable.  In at least this last regard, the Japanese differed much from western nations.
 
And once again, someone had to pay for Japanese aggression and brutality; it might as well be the Japanese.



Dino -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 6:16:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Curtis Lemay's decision to alter our bombing tactics and focus on fire-bombing had a neglible effect on Emperor Hirohito and his government. This WAS truly an evil regime.

We always go back to the atomic bomb argument, and yes, those WERE necessary to end the Pacific War.

That being said, Japan is now a valued ally. What's past is past. We have to let it go. Replaying old animosities is now done as entertainment.


Doggie’s reference to Curtis Lemay (on page 3) was made in a context that was clearly racist...well, at least it was clear enough to me.

As for the "atomic bomb argument", I (and a number of prominent Americans of the era) don’t quite agree that it was absolutely necessary...but, let’s not start yet another topic here.



Dino -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 6:49:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Blah, blah, blah...


WOW...a fresh new day...a fresh new topic...a fresh new Doggie.

You are challenging me with facts that were never disputed...How about you provide some evidence that there's no life on Mars. [8|]

Ah well, at least we are making some progress here...from ALL Japanese being stinking savages that needed to be gentled by firebombing, we finally come to "a nation (that was) full of warmongering fanatics"...quite a leap (in right direction). But, with your record of racist remarks and willingness to <ahem> twist the truth, I somehow doubt that it was genuine.

As for the comparison of Japanese and US military, I believe that classifies as a classic STRAWMAN. Nobody here claimed that Japanese soldiers were generally nicer, equal, or even slightly worse than American G.I.s and Marines.

This whole turmoil started because one movie showed one Japanese soldier as - God forbid - a human being [X(]...something you are evidently not capable of perceiving as possible.


quote:

All you got is self rightous, hypocritical accusations of "racism" directed against the decendents of those who actually did confront racism and genocide while your ancestors did nothing.


No Doggie. My "self righteous, hypocritical accusations" of racism are directed at YOU and you only...Hiding behind your ancestors is not going to cut it...and wrapping up your racist views in "patriotism" is even more despicable.

As for my ancestors, they paid dearly for fighting on Allied side in both WW1 and WW2 ...yet, despite their horrendous sufferings, they brought me up not to be a hateful little racist...for which I thank them with all my heart.



06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 7:09:49 PM)

Curtiss Lemay did a lot toward gentling them down and making them downright reasonable.

Is this what you refered to as racist?  If so, sensitivity training has attained new hights-shades of A Clockwork Orange even.

It is clear to me that Doggie is talking about the Japanese military as being murderous, and needing to mellowed out a little.  Some of the general public was of the same mind set-it was a problem.  No one here has asserted that mamason was a baby killer, or that all Japanese people were whacked out murderers.  There was a problem with Japanese culture, and it was addresed after the war (as it was in Germany). 

People are a little to quick to yell "racist" these days.  It is as if they were brainwashed.  Just as it is obvious that to make assumtions about someone based on skin color is foolish, it is obvious that to make assumtions about someone based on their home culture will be close to the truth.  Does anyone think that the Japanese have the same culture now as in '41?  Of course some aspects of their culture have remained unchanged, but the veneration of the military, and willingness to follow illegal orders is gone (among other things).  Curtis Lemay had something to do with that.





wesy -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 7:53:22 PM)

Maestro,

Good points. As in posting on boards like this, context is often lacking [:)]. The points you make could be made for the Japanese as well. Think of the divisions within the IJN, the "Fleet Faction" and the "Gun Faction" let alone the differences between the IJN and the IJA. Those that truly understood the folly of going to war with the US we're not in position to drive the bus so to speak.

Quality over quantity - was a necessity. The Japanese knew they could never have the material superiority of the US, so they strove for qualitative superiority. However, i don't think that has to do with any racial/doctrinal feeling superiority - rather it was the only option for Germany or Japan. I do agree with you that cultural/racial feeling of superiority was used to rally the troops to victory - in lieu of proper supply etc.

I think facist/communist states wether western or eastern are equally capable of committing attrocities - imho it is just how it manifests itself. Treatment of POWs is an example that has been used in this thread vis a vis Japan vs ROW. However, what are the statistics of Soviet POWs or other sub-human "slavs" in German POW camps? (I don't know) Germany's extermination camps systematically and industrially killed Jews - across Europe. The Japanese have no doubt committed terrible attrocities (Nanking, Unit 731 etc.), but it wasn't necessarily to eliminate an entire religious/racial group. My point is that east or west - all are capable of committing horrible acts. To quote Tolstoy, "...All happy families are the same, all unhappy families are unhappy in their own individual ways..."



06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 8:36:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wesy

I think facist/communist states wether western or eastern are equally capable of committing attrocities - imho it is just how it manifests itself. Treatment of POWs is an example that has been used in this thread vis a vis Japan vs ROW. However, what are the statistics of Soviet POWs or other sub-human "slavs" in German POW camps? (I don't know) Germany's extermination camps systematically and industrially killed Jews - across Europe. The Japanese have no doubt committed terrible attrocities (Nanking, Unit 731 etc.), but it wasn't necessarily to eliminate an entire religious/racial group. My point is that east or west - all are capable of committing horrible acts. To quote Tolstoy, "...All happy families are the same, all unhappy families are unhappy in their own individual ways..."



I agree with this completely (could have added Soviet treatment of Germans). It is clear that no one race has a monopoly on brutality. The level of criminal brutality is tied to the type of culture, or even to a temporary type of government. Confucius had a saying; "people are to their government as grass is to the wind". All to often, this is true.



mjk428 -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 9:32:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino
This whole turmoil started because one movie showed one Japanese soldier as - God forbid - a human being [X(]...something you are evidently not capable of perceiving as possible.


This whole turmoil started because some foks got their panties in a bunch about comments directed towards a group that no longer exists.

Erik has called for the personal stuff to be dropped. How about honoring that?




Reiryc -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 10:58:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Curtiss Lemay did a lot toward gentling them down and making them downright reasonable.

Is this what you refered to as racist? If so, sensitivity training has attained new hights-shades of A Clockwork Orange even.

It is clear to me that Doggie is talking about the Japanese military as being murderous, and needing to mellowed out a little. Some of the general public was of the same mind set-it was a problem. No one here has asserted that mamason was a baby killer, or that all Japanese people were whacked out murderers. There was a problem with Japanese culture, and it was addresed after the war (as it was in Germany).

People are a little to quick to yell "racist" these days. It is as if they were brainwashed. Just as it is obvious that to make assumtions about someone based on skin color is foolish, it is obvious that to make assumtions about someone based on their home culture will be close to the truth. Does anyone think that the Japanese have the same culture now as in '41? Of course some aspects of their culture have remained unchanged, but the veneration of the military, and willingness to follow illegal orders is gone (among other things). Curtis Lemay had something to do with that.





Well said...

I've yet to see doggie make racist remarks. At worst he made bigoted and/or prejudicial remarks, but given the actions of the japanese soldiers and the japanese empire as a whole, the remarks are quite understandable.



*Lava* -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/25/2007 11:11:08 PM)

Nice posts, Maestro.

Now where is the "increase reputation" button?

Ray (alias Lava)



Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/26/2007 4:06:41 PM)

Well, for some of us; it's about the conduct of the Japanese during the Pacific War.  For Dino; it's about how he's gentically superior to untermensch.



Dino -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/26/2007 5:49:44 PM)


[:D] [sm=sign0003.gif]




Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/26/2007 11:35:38 PM)

Aw Dino, I feel your pain. I really do. I lived in Europe for eight years. I know all about self loathing Europeans. "Oh, we're so evil. We've plundered and pillaged our way around the world and exploited all the poor indigeounous people. We're bad, bad, I tell you. The best thing we can do is sit around and smoke dope and reflect on how evil we truly are.

Well, Americans aint like that. We aint ashamed of who we are. I know it sucks to play war games where the only way to win a campaign is to play as the British or Americans. And when you can't even find your country among the minor Allied or Axis counters, well, that's really gotta hurt. And then you guys who were on a side that lost, or didn't even play in the real game. Or surrendered before the first PBEM turn is over. Ouch. So you gotta play as the racist yanks. Man, that's gotta hurt.

It's gotta suck even going to the movies. Here's the debonair English guy keeping a stiff upper lip in his Spitfire. Or the American guy from the Bronx patting his pin up of Betty Grable befor he goes out to gentle down some bad guys with his chattering tommy gun. You guys gotta settle for old pictures in Life magazine of some old guy crying in shame as the Wehrmacht marches through his capitol city.

Even the Germans got stuff they can be proud of. The kreigmarine had one of the most honorable war records in naval history. The tales of the surface raiders would make a great movie. And as an aviator myself, I gotta take my hat off to the poor kraut bastard who crawled into his Bf-109 every day and took on the whole Eghth Air Force. Even if they were fighting for the wrong side, those guys had to have a huge set of balls to swing that cockpit closed and hit the starter switch even when their guts were heaving and their hands were shaking.
I'm sure many American, Austrailian, and British airmen felt the same way when they took off knowing the noble Japanese would literally skin them alive and eat them if they should be force to bail out over New Guinea.

And then there's modern day real life. Americans make history. Nobody's ever even heard of you. Even when there's not a war going on, it's the Americans who are first on the scene of any disaster. Earth quake? It's American soldiers flying in medical teams and relief supplies in aircraft manufactured by our evil capitalist defense contractors. Shipwreck? Hey, it's helicopters from an American naval task force that are rescuing survivors. Terrorists? You turn them loose. Americans put them in prison and they stay in prison. They don't even bother making threats about all the horrible things that will happen if we don't turn their buddies loose. They know they're wasting their breath. You guys censor your newspapers and pack up duffle bags full of Euroes for every pooh-bah that so much as scowls at you.

So you were a squad leader in the army of what ever insignicant country you live in? **Yawn*** Tell us what it's like taking census counts of walruses in the ice floes. So how is that sandbag detail during the spring floods coming along? You got rifles? Hey, how does that built in bottle opener work. Pound any nails with the stock lately? Hey, we'd like to stick around and swap stories, but we got things to do.

So keep on pretending there's no such thing as good guys and bad guys. There's a lot of people in places like Arnhem, Stavelot, Manila, and a thousand other places that wouldn't agree with you. They know who the bad guys were. You don't. Just because you've freed your mind with assorted mind altering chemicals while you were sitting around wishing you mattered doesn't make you morally superior to anyone.




mdiehl -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 12:41:59 AM)

Well, pzjgr hortlund, you have of course your opinion, despite the fact that the German citizen jailed in Sweden for being German described his experience as life in an "internment camp." It wasn't a "refugee camp" and he was no indigent refugee looking for a handout. He had means of self-support, but he was arrested FOR BEING GERMAN. That makes it an internment camp.

The difference between the Swedish Internment Camp and the American ones being that many of the American ones were located in warmer places. Otherwise, with respect to motive (jailing a civilian whose ethnicity was that of a combatant nation) and treatment the difference between Sweden's internment camps and US ones is so small as to be immeasurable. Did Sweden arrest Swedes of German descent? Probably not. It really does not make a difference to me, because in the end the only issue here that matters is the conditions in which the internees (or if you prefer, "refugees") were held.

Putting the US internment camps into the same category with the Japanese ones or German ones is, frankly, idiotic. Only a base liar could suggest that the two kinds of treatment were comparable. The US did not operate gas chambers, execute droves of the interned, enslave them, or starve them. The Germans and Japanese did so, deliberately and systematically. Any suggestion that many Japanese or Germans were not aware of their nations' respective brutality is idiotic. The Japanese and Germans celebrated their "successes" in their publically circulated newspapers. (Osaka Nichinichi Shimbun 25 January 1938, for example, see: http://www.japantoday.com/jp/kuchikomi/298 ). Ordinary Germans knew as well: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,439168,00.html




Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 3:33:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Curtis Lemay's decision to alter our bombing tactics and focus on fire-bombing had a neglible effect on Emperor Hirohito and his government. This WAS truly an evil regime.

We always go back to the atomic bomb argument, and yes, those WERE necessary to end the Pacific War.

That being said, Japan is now a valued ally. What's past is past. We have to let it go. Replaying old animosities is now done as entertainment.



That’s precisely what Europe tried after the fist “war to end wars“,we all know how that worked out [X(]

If your looking to repeat WWII that would be the first step [;)]



morvwilson -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 6:47:41 AM)

Didn't I hear some famous guy say "trust but verify" ?



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 11:14:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava
Then you shouldn't be defending the Germans and Japanese who did...

I havent defended them. I have been saying that not all Germans or not all Japanese were guilty of warcrimes. A shocking notion it seems. The fact that you cant tell the difference between defending those Germans or Japanese who didnt commit any warcrime, and those who did speaks volumes of you.

quote:


And don't give me this baloney their people didn't know or disapprove. They believed. And that is why they fought to the bitter end. Their people believed. And that does not only make them individually guilty, but collectively as well.


More pointless stereotyping. This time based on stuff you conjured up yourself. The vast majority of the German armed forces were conscripted. Those who tried to avoid that conscription were punished for it. The same goes for the Japanese armed forces.

"Thats why they fought to the bitter end".
It would seem that you really have no idea what you are talking about in this thread. You come in here with an enormous amount of stereotypes, predjudice and made up crap. From this you try to build some sort of argument, but all you succeed in doing is displaying your own ignorance.



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 11:27:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
That would be your outrageous position. Typical of you to attribute things to me I never said, like the lie about shooting Japanese Prisoners. There was a reason for strafing soldiers in life boats. It kept them from reaching shore alive and killing American soldiers. I haven't said a word about firebombing anybody in their homes, either.


It would seem that you are now trying to backpeddal and retreat from some of your more famous statements in this thread. Instead of trying the "oh, but thats not what I meant"-defence, you should come clean and admit that what you said was wrong.

You never said that soldiers were to be strafed in life boats, you said that japanese should be strafed in life boats. You said that all japanese were stinking savages, and that is why they were shot when captured.

You havent said a word about firebombing anyone in their homes? Well you were in here singing LeMay's praises, and thats pretty much the only thing he is known for. Well, that and his absolute desire to have a nuclear war over Korea. LeMay was the one who thought that firebombing Tokyo would be a swell idea, and you were in here telling us how LeMay taught the Japs a lesson. Clearly you are defending his actions, clearly you are defending the idea that firebombing residential areas is ok.

If not, here is your chance. If you believe it is wrong to firebomb residential areas in a war, then speak up now.

quote:


How about you document one of your outrageous lies just this once and show us where I've said anything about murdering the thousands of Japanese who survived U.S. captivity, or anything about exterminating Japanese in general based on their race.

What I have said is the truth, that Japanese soldiers were sadistic savages and deserve no sympathy.


Actually, until you are able to understand the fact that not all Japanese soldiers were sadistic savages, then you are stuck on square one. The inability to see people of a different race as individuals, and instead you bunch them all together in a vicious, evil stereotype where they are all presented as monsters who deserve no sympathy...well, that is racist.


quote:


No, you engage in stereotyping when you judge all American soldiers on one isolated incident, which you have. The actions of the Nanking Gang, and the Okinawa gang, and the Battan gang, and the Singapore gang, and the Guam gang, and every other gang of murderous thugs in the Japanese army were typical of their behavior, not exceptional.


It is still a stereotype


quote:



The native Americans committed quite a few atrocities of their own. But you wouldn't know that as it's obvious you know nothing of the American Indian wars.


Of cource I know alot about the indian wars. I can, after all, read. We do not all build our thoughts and opinions on predjudice, inferiority complexes and tales told to us by our uncles you know.

quote:


No atrocities were committed against the Germans, Italians, and Japanese interned in the United States during world war II. And not all Germans, Italians, and Japanese were interned. You'd know that too if you knew anything at all about the subject.


Ah, but the fact that they were interned at all is the atrocity here.

quote:


And then you have the nerve to claim that historical facts like the existence of Swedish concentration camps are not relevant because you say so. How about a source for even one of your fantasies?


There were no Swedish concentration camps. The fact that you want to pretend there were does not change that fact. If you want to claim there were, then the burden of proof lies with you. I can hardly be called upon to prove the non-existance of something.



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 11:39:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Well, pzjgr hortlund, you have of course your opinion, despite the fact that the German citizen jailed in Sweden for being German described his experience as life in an "internment camp." It wasn't a "refugee camp" and he was no indigent refugee looking for a handout. He had means of self-support, but he was arrested FOR BEING GERMAN. That makes it an internment camp.


Being German, in Sweden. In other words, he was not a swedish citizen. And thus his entire experience becomes utterly irrelevant to the discussion. But still, that was a refugee camp, since he was not part of the German armed forces.

quote:


The difference between the Swedish Internment Camp and the American ones being that many of the American ones were located in warmer places. Otherwise, with respect to motive (jailing a civilian whose ethnicity was that of a combatant nation) and treatment the difference between Sweden's internment camps and US ones is so small as to be immeasurable. Did Sweden arrest Swedes of German descent? Probably not. It really does not make a difference to me, because in the end the only issue here that matters is the conditions in which the internees (or if you prefer, "refugees") were held.


Eh, no. The issue here was "did Sweden ever put its citizens in concentration camps because of their ethnicity. And the answer is no. The issue was not, and has never been "what condition were the internees held in"...that is just something you are trying to add to the discussion now.

quote:


Putting the US internment camps into the same category with the Japanese ones or German ones is, frankly, idiotic. Only a base liar could suggest that the two kinds of treatment were comparable.

Oh, but no one has suggested that the two kinds of treatment were comparable. What I have said is that only those three nations put their own citizens in camps because of their ethnicity. Surely you are capable of understanding the difference between those two issues?



morvwilson -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 5:40:19 PM)

Got a question here for you guys, this may be a distinction without a difference (depending on country) but, what is the difference between a concentration and an internment camp? Your own words please.



Dixie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 5:56:04 PM)

I would say that a concentration camp is set up specifically for the killing of certain people, or to use them as slave labour. Most obvious example would be Buchenwald etc. I would also apply this to the Soviet gulags. Poor conditions and no personal liberties.

An internment camp would be used to hold enemy civilians or potential threats to a nation etc. Examples of this would include those of Japanese origin in the US, or refugees from Germany were held for a while in internment camps in the Isle of Mann in the UK. The term would also apply to the camps operated by the neutral nations to hold military personnel from the combatant nations who ended up in their territory (mostly airmen). They would generally be fairly good living conditions, but with added guards and some limitations on liberties.

However the first use of the term concentration camp actually referred to what would be internment camps. So if you wanted to be technically correct, most nations operated some form of concentration camps but generally not the type associated with the phrase.



Dino -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 6:54:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


I feel pretty
Oh so pretty
I feel pretty and witty and gay
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me today
I feel charming
Oh so charming
It's alarming how charming I feel
And so pretty
That I hardly can believe I'm real
...




So, now I AM the "untermensche" ? [:D]

Keep typing Doggie...maybe you'll succeed in provoking me just before you make a COMPLETE ass of yourself.




Dino -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 7:25:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Any suggestion that many Japanese or Germans were not aware of their nations' respective brutality is idiotic. The Japanese and Germans celebrated their "successes" in their publically circulated newspapers.


Celebrating the "successes" in the newspapers of totalitarian regimes means squat. We still don't know how the public felt about it, or more importantly, how they would feel about it if they knew the full truth.

But I know one thing: In my home town there's a monument to one Jozef Shulc, a German soldier who died because he refused to execute POWs...and if someone came with the evidence that ALL THE OTHER Germans committed war crimes, I'd still think twice before calling the whole nation "stinking savages".



mjk428 -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/27/2007 9:17:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Clearly you are defending his actions, clearly you are defending the idea that firebombing residential areas is ok.

If not, here is your chance. If you believe it is wrong to firebomb residential areas in a war, then speak up now.



It's not about being "OK" or not. It was deemed necessary. These things didn't happen in a bubble. It was a war. Ultimately the Allies prevailed. You don't get to determine after the fact what things we could have removed from the equation so that we could have prevailed in a way acceptable to future generations.

And it's particularly irksome to have someone from a country that simply used WW2 to make a few bucks commenting on the questionable behavior of those that defended the free world.

quote:


Actually, until you are able to understand the fact that not all Japanese soldiers were sadistic savages, then you are stuck on square one. The inability to see people of a different race as individuals, and instead you bunch them all together in a vicious, evil stereotype where they are all presented as monsters who deserve no sympathy...well, that is racist.


Yes we did (note the past tense) lump them together - because they were the ENEMY! To Sweden they were potential customers. That's the difference.



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