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herwin -> RE: Admirals Edition Land Thread (10/21/2011 5:36:30 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
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ORIGINAL: herwin
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ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
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ORIGINAL: herwin
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ORIGINAL: crsutton
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ORIGINAL: herwin
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ORIGINAL: crsutton
Andy,
The 56th and 37 Soviet motorized divisions both have 43 motorized squads, 600 trucks and about 100 AC and light tanks. Should these two units have the same mobility as an armored or mech unit? As it is now they are classified as infantry divisions and are no more mobile than any vanilla infantry unit.
If those were post-December 1942 motorised corps, they should have the mobility of an armoured unit.
Well they are now with motorized 43 squads and are soon to get motorized 44 squads but perhaps I have not left them at "rest" to allow them to upgrade. I think I have but will check next turn.
No, I checked and all Soviet "motorized" units are basically infantry units and must walk, even though a motorized division has 600 vehicles where a regular Soviet division has no vehicular support. All my units have upgraded to 43 or 44 motorized squads. I realized that a lot of motorized units were only that in name, so perhaps this was the idea. Still, when a unit has that many vehicles one would expect it to be able to move along roads at a better clip than regular infantry.
Bear in mind that my Russians are not activated, so I really can not test their mobility. But my experience is that if it looks like an infantry unit (symbol), then it is an infantry unit.
The Soviet forces in the Far East had two Motorized Rifle Corps (division-sized) between 1941 and 1945. They may not have been at full strength until the summer of 1945, but they were most definitely motorized. If you've been monitoring the discussion on Deep Battle, led by Nemo, you should recognise them as the mechanised core of the tank army with the mission of capturing and holding a major enemy logistics centre in the deep rear (ca 125 miles) in two to four days. At full strength, they had about 400 AV, and as these units were well-trained and part of the winning hand at Khalkhin Gol, they should be able to put a real hurt on any IJA units choosing to take them on.
There were no Motorized Rifle Corps in existence in the Far East (neither in the Far East nor in the Transbaikal MD) between 1941 and 1945.
Don't know where you got this info, but your statement is wrong. There were 61st and 111th Tank Divisions, the 36th and 57th Motorized Rifle Divisions and lots of Tank Brigades [some of them for some time formed into two provisional tank divisions) and a Armoured Car Brigade (unique formation, later converted to a Mechanized Brigade) but definitely no Motorized Rifle Corps (not even as HQ's for other formations).
I was going from Glantz but using my knowledge of the relationship between MRD and MRC. The MRDs were part of the prewar organisation of the RKKA. During 1941-42, they were either disbanded or converted into MRCs. After the end of the war, the wartime Tank Corps were redesignated Tank Divisions, and the wartime Motorised Rifle Corps were redesignated Motorised Rifle Divisions. At full strength, the MRC was a square unit with three motorised rifle brigades and a tank brigade. The motorised rifle brigade was also a square unit with three motorised rifle battalions and a tank regiment (about 40 tanks). The tank brigade had two or three tank battalions (@21 tanks each) and a motorised SMG battalion (the tank marines). There are various sources with this information, including the US Army WWII-era and 1950s FMs on the RKKA/Soviet Army, various wartime and post-war German language publications, and post-war Russian language publications. Tracing the history of RKKA/Soviet Army organisational changes was a bit of a cottage industry during the Cold War.
The Motorized Rifle Divisions and Tank Divisions in the FE (including Zabaikal) were not disbanded (or even restructured) before the end of the war and any knowledge about the post war structure of the Red Army is completely irrelevant when it comes to the Red Army between 1941-45. And Glantz (or any other source) does not mention any Motorized Rifle Corps in the FE 1941-45.
You're right about the MRDs. Glantz (1983) describes those two motorised rifle divisions as "a remnant of the 1941 force structure." The 6th GTA also had two standard mechanised corps (MRCs) and a standard tank corps. There was another MRC(-) in the east. The count of tanks, tank battalions, and motorised rifle battalions in the 6th GTA is consistent with the MRDs being organised as MRCs. I've seen his Russian language sources, but only as borrowed copies.
My sources were the 1945 TM 30-430, House (1984), and a bunch of Soviet publications. They were primarily concerned with the main show.
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