RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition

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Mike Scholl -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 6:20:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feltan Now, those guesses are mere pricing, not what the game is worth to dedicated players! Your term "reasonable person," while simple enough is rather hard to define. It is quite clear a number of dedicated players would (gladly) trade-in their spouse and/or mortgage the house for a new expansion pack![:D] Regards, Feltan I'd have to say that my definition of "a reasonable person" does not include those who would morgage their wives and sell their houses for AE. If WITP has sold 7500 copies, we've really only heard from about 500 "owners" on this forum..., what about the rest? How much those 7,000 would be willing to pay is a really big question for Matrix in their pricing decision..., and they don't seem to be saying much. If I was guessing, I'd say about $35 bucks..., about half the cost of the game itself. But I'm just pulling that number "out of the air" based on my own thinking. Maybe someone should post a poll...

jwilkerson -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 6:28:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: Feltan Now, those guesses are mere pricing, not what the game is worth to dedicated players! Your term "reasonable person," while simple enough is rather hard to define. It is quite clear a number of dedicated players would (gladly) trade-in their spouse and/or mortgage the house for a new expansion pack![:D] Regards, Feltan I'd have to say that my definition of "a reasonable person" does not include those who would morgage their wives and sell their houses for AE. If WITP has sold 7500 copies, we've really only heard from about 500 "owners" on this forum..., what about the rest? How much those 7,000 would be willing to pay is a really big question for Matrix in their pricing decision..., and they don't seem to be saying much. If I was guessing, I'd say about $35 bucks..., about half the cost of the game itself. But I'm just pulling that number "out of the air" based on my own thinking. Maybe someone should post a poll... Nah, I don't think the price will be determined by voting. In fact, the AE design/dev team will also have little to no input on the price (we gave some input almost 2 years ago, and that input has not changed since). The price and packaging is the pervue of the owners of WITP which are Matrix and 2 by 3. They alone will determine the price (and the process for determining the price). So everyone can speculate but I wouldn't be counting on a "poll" to be the process by which the price will be set!

Terminus -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 6:37:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jwilkerson quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: Feltan Now, those guesses are mere pricing, not what the game is worth to dedicated players! Your term "reasonable person," while simple enough is rather hard to define. It is quite clear a number of dedicated players would (gladly) trade-in their spouse and/or mortgage the house for a new expansion pack![:D] Regards, Feltan I'd have to say that my definition of "a reasonable person" does not include those who would morgage their wives and sell their houses for AE. If WITP has sold 7500 copies, we've really only heard from about 500 "owners" on this forum..., what about the rest? How much those 7,000 would be willing to pay is a really big question for Matrix in their pricing decision..., and they don't seem to be saying much. If I was guessing, I'd say about $35 bucks..., about half the cost of the game itself. But I'm just pulling that number "out of the air" based on my own thinking. Maybe someone should post a poll... Nah, I don't think the price will be determined by voting. In fact, the AE design/dev team will also have little to no input on the price (we gave some input almost 2 years ago, and that input has not changed since). And how many times have we said this, without effect? Quite a few...

Fishbed -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 6:51:18 PM)
quote: If WITP has sold 7500 copies, we've really only heard from about 500 "owners" on this forum... Talking about that, did Matrix publish anywhere selling figures about WitP so far? Playing combat simulations myself, another "confidential" market in the video games industry, I wondered how well a complex and modestly advertised wargame like WitP finally sold...? Does anyone have a clue about that?

wworld7 -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 7:47:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus And how many times have we said this, without effect? Quite a few... It may be a stretch, but if you are saying that you are ineffective, is it time to fire up the BBQ and have some roast Termi? Note: It is cold outside and I want BBQ!!!

witpqs -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 10:24:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl I was just hoping to get some of them to come "out of the woodwork" and express an opinion. And you got mine, namely that this game is incredibly cheap. Certainly the cheapest game I've ever owned, on a price per time scale. I'm trying to get people to think about what this game costs differently than just comparing the box price to other games. Suppose that for every hundred hours you played WITP you skipped going to a movie that you wouldn't have liked - the game payed for itself in saved money. Suppose you played WITP more instead of buying another two or three games - you get the idea. The situation and the mileage will vary for each person but the point is that because of the nature of this game and the nature of the players involved, the cost equation is really different. [8D]

witpqs -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 10:31:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feltan Also, and I simply don't know this because I haven't been reading a lot of these threads, will the expansion be stand alone or require WiTP original to play? They've said it will require the original to play. While the original price of WITP was about $70, I believe I saw the download price offered for $50+ dollars currently. Maybe that's a sale price, I don't know. I agree about the psychological barrier. I assume they'll price it so that the two together are less than $100, or (for the benefit of new folks) maybe even that the two together will be about the same as the original release price (about $70).* * The foregoing is RAW SPECULATION!

wworld7 -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/22/2007 11:30:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs They've said it will require the original to play. While the original price of WITP was about $70, I believe I saw the download price offered for $50+ dollars currently. Maybe that's a sale price, I don't know. Yes, this is the "Holiday sale price" which is currently running.

GaryChildress -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 2:35:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: Gary Childress For me personally...anything over $400 and I would have to do a serious cost benefit analysis. Either that or postpone my next computer upgrade for another year. Under $400 I think my demand is pretty inflexible enough that I would have to buy it. I'd just have to cut back on a few other luxuries. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. [:D] So you would pay five times as much for an "upgrade package" as you did for the original game? That certainly shows a lot of faith in the new design team. Maybe I should re-phrase the question... I would indeed if that were the price Matrix asked for. Of course I would hope that it would be cheaper. I thought the question had moved to how much Matrix would be able to get for the game. My apologies for misreading it. quote: How much would a "reasonable person" consider "within reason" for the AE expansion package? If you put it that way, I'm not a mind reader (and assume no one else is either) and don't know what others would consider "reasonable". I only know how much is reasonable in my book and I consider myself a "reasonable" person. I assume "reasonable" would, likewise, factor in such things as how much would people be willing to pay for it. If a for profit organization manages to sell something it produces for an incredible profit then I would say more power to them. It simply means that they have found something that others truly value. Maybe other gaming companies will take note and say, "wow, maybe we ought to try to produce something like that too." Then the cost will certainly come down when competitors enter the market. Maybe more companies will focus on turn based strategy games and less of their resources on role playing and personal shooter games. I've been through the gaming isle of more than a few retail stores and have to say that TBS games seem to be pretty few and far between when compared to other games. I know of no government regulations which say a company is only allowed to sell its product for a marginal profit (but who knows in our society). If a company creates something good then it should be rewarded for it. It should be able to sell it for whatever price it thinks it can get for its product. I know of no regulations which say that everyone should be able to afford a product. Of course that doesn't mean that there is not more profit to be made in making a product affordable by a larger number of people. Also it doesn't mean that a company may decide on its own that it wants to make the product available to more people by marking the price for less than what it could otherwise expect to get for the product. I can only hope that the proceeds of AE will go in two basic directions: 1. Some of it will go toward further development of a profitable game (ie. WITP II). 2. Some of it will go into the pockets of all those involved in improving the game as a reward for their dedication and commitment. As for having "faith" in the design team, my faith is that if there are any bugs, the design team will stay true to its record and try to quash whatever bugs appear in further fixes. WITP has an excellent record of support as far as I am concerned.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 3:17:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gary Childress I know of no government regulations which say a company is only allowed to sell its product for a marginal profit (but who knows in our society). If a company creates something good then it should be rewarded for it. It should be able to sell it for whatever price it thinks it can get for its product. I know of no regulations which say that everyone should be able to afford a product. Of course that doesn't mean that there is not more profit to be made in making a product affordable by a larger number of people. Also it doesn't mean that a company may decide on its own that it wants to make the product available to more people by marking the price for less than what it could otherwise expect to get for the product. This was the area I was trying to explore...., how much should they "think" they can get? Very few people have responded with a "price they'd be willing to pay"..., and most of them (like you and I and and "witpqs") have a full row of stars beneath our names. What about the other 7-8000 WITP owners? The ones that rarely/never post on the forum? They bought the game, so they would seem to be "reasonable people" (they know a good thing when they see it). I was hoping a few of them might respond and give Matrix an idea of what "the silent majority" were thinking. As for having "faith" in the design team, my faith is that if there are any bugs, the design team will stay true to its record and try to quash whatever bugs appear in further fixes. WITP has an excellent record of support as far as I am concerned. Which "design team"? The guys from 2by3 who "bailed out" several years ago (but still get a royalty)..., or the "volunteers" who've provided the last several patches (and comprise some of the AE Team)? Hopefully you mean the second group, as AE certainly seems to qualify as "excellent support". *

witpqs -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 3:30:16 AM)
Hey Mike, I'm curious. Where do those sales figures for WITP come from?

GaryChildress -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 3:53:31 AM)
Yes, I mostly mean the current design team. However, by turning over code and such to the current design team Matrix and 2by3 have not "bailed out" on the game in my book. "Bailing out" would be completely leaving the game where it is, not giving a @#$%& and not giving gamers access to the source code to improve it. Some companies are very stingy about giving access to game code. And 2by3 Games is pretty much just 3 guys who are currently working on other projects.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 4:06:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs Hey Mike, I'm curious. Where do those sales figures for WITP come from? Basically a "wag" based on various things I've read on the forum over the years. When I first mentioned the subject my guess was 5-10,000 copies "sold"...., and since then I've been guessing a "middle ground" of that. No one's offered a "correction", so I'm assuming I'n not too far out of the ballpark---but it certainly isn't anything that should be taken as "official".

Mike Scholl -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 4:14:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gary Childress Yes, I mostly mean the current design team. However, by turning over code and such to the current design team Matrix and 2by3 have not "bailed out" on the game in my book. "Bailing out" would be completely leaving the game where it is, not giving a @#$%& and not giving gamers access to the source code to improve it. Some companies are very stingy about giving access to game code. And 2by3 Games is pretty much just 3 guys who are currently working on other projects. "Bailing out" might be the wrong term..., but they basically announced that they wouldn't be doing any more support of WITP and left us with a lot of "untied ends" and unaddressed bugs. Thank goodness for the "volunteers" who "stepped into the breech".

wworld7 -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 4:18:04 AM)
I may be wrong, but I believe Matrix does not release sales figures. Which may explain no comment on your estimate. Many companies guard such information as standard practice. 3 days to Christmas so, Happy Holidays!!!

1EyedJacks -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 4:19:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: Gary Childress I know of no government regulations which say a company is only allowed to sell its product for a marginal profit (but who knows in our society). If a company creates something good then it should be rewarded for it. It should be able to sell it for whatever price it thinks it can get for its product. I know of no regulations which say that everyone should be able to afford a product. Of course that doesn't mean that there is not more profit to be made in making a product affordable by a larger number of people. Also it doesn't mean that a company may decide on its own that it wants to make the product available to more people by marking the price for less than what it could otherwise expect to get for the product. This was the area I was trying to explore...., how much should they "think" they can get? Very few people have responded with a "price they'd be willing to pay"..., and most of them (like you and I and and "witpqs") have a full row of stars beneath our names. What about the other 7-8000 WITP owners? The ones that rarely/never post on the forum? They bought the game, so they would seem to be "reasonable people" (they know a good thing when they see it). I was hoping a few of them might respond and give Matrix an idea of what "the silent majority" were thinking. As for having "faith" in the design team, my faith is that if there are any bugs, the design team will stay true to its record and try to quash whatever bugs appear in further fixes. WITP has an excellent record of support as far as I am concerned. Which "design team"? The guys from 2by3 who "bailed out" several years ago (but still get a royalty)..., or the "volunteers" who've provided the last several patches (and comprise some of the AE Team)? Hopefully you mean the second group, as AE certainly seems to qualify as "excellent support". * All I know is that when it comes out I'm buying AE. If I can burn $400 for a new X-box plus headsets and year subscription 2 play online for my son then I can burn some coin for his daddy! <laughter>

GaryChildress -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 4:36:10 AM)
ULtimately It doesn't bother me that 3 guys who came up with an incredible war game concept sold it to Matrix and still get royalties for it. The game is still supported. 2by3 didn't leave it high and dry. It seems to me that 3 guys can only do so much, so they turned the support over to Matrix who gave access to the code to some gamers who are now releasing an expansion. My only hope is that some proceeds from the expansion will go into their pockets as well. They certainly deserve it. I think 2by3 has some of the best war game minds in the industry. I've followed Joel Billings' games since his SSI days. He has produced very few games which I haven't enjoyed. I give him a good track record. I'm glad 2by3 is working on other projects. I'm glad they didn't bog themselves down for 2 or 3 years to give personal support to a single game. Let Matrix handle that. They ultimately have more resources and manpower at their disposal. And I think Matrix has done a good job of supporting WitP. WITP is still going strong and now has AE coming up. And yes, thanks to Joe, Don, and everyone else who took up the torch. I hope the AE crew make a bundle from this. I hope Matrix and 2by3 get their share. And I hope 2by3 will look at the success of WitP and decide to create other games similar to it (I'm personally not too fond of Civil War games). [:)] EDIT: I should add, Happy holidays flipperwasirish and everyone else out there!

ny59giants -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 5:09:45 AM)
AE will also be "GREEN." All that time playing the game will mean I will not be out in my car using up all those fossil fuels. [:D] However, it may mean paying more for beer and pretzels as their using some of those beer making grains for bio-fuels. It's so hard being Politically Correct....NOT!! [sm=00000280.gif][sm=00000436.gif][sm=00000280.gif]

bradfordkay -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 5:21:39 AM)
Naw, beer is healthy. The biofuels are not. You're still being "green" playing WITP and drinking the beer, as long as the beer was brewed locally.

Nomad -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 5:26:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bradfordkay Naw, beer is healthy. The biofuels are not. You're still being "green" playing WITP and drinking the beer, as long as the beer was brewed locally. locally = you mean in the basement? [:D]

tsimmonds -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/23/2007 7:43:03 PM)
Another way to look at it: 20 years ago I paid $225 for an unpunched copy of SPIs WitP. I have gotten far better value from the $70 spent on Matrix's WitP than I ever expected to get from the cardboard game. AE promises to be a substantial improvement, incorporating many improvements that we have been asking/begging/whining for ever since the game came out. I am confident that Matrix will not set a price point that I would consider to be unreasonable, let alone one that would deter me from buying AE at the earliest opportunity. quote: ORIGINAL: Gary Childress quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: Gary Childress For me personally...anything over $400 and I would have to do a serious cost benefit analysis. Either that or postpone my next computer upgrade for another year. Under $400 I think my demand is pretty inflexible enough that I would have to buy it. I'd just have to cut back on a few other luxuries. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. [:D] So you would pay five times as much for an "upgrade package" as you did for the original game? That certainly shows a lot of faith in the new design team. Maybe I should re-phrase the question... I would indeed if that were the price Matrix asked for. Of course I would hope that it would be cheaper. I thought the question had moved to how much Matrix would be able to get for the game. My apologies for misreading it. quote: How much would a "reasonable person" consider "within reason" for the AE expansion package? If you put it that way, I'm not a mind reader (and assume no one else is either) and don't know what others would consider "reasonable". I only know how much is reasonable in my book and I consider myself a "reasonable" person. I assume "reasonable" would, likewise, factor in such things as how much would people be willing to pay for it. If a for profit organization manages to sell something it produces for an incredible profit then I would say more power to them. It simply means that they have found something that others truly value. Maybe other gaming companies will take note and say, "wow, maybe we ought to try to produce something like that too." Then the cost will certainly come down when competitors enter the market. Maybe more companies will focus on turn based strategy games and less of their resources on role playing and personal shooter games. I've been through the gaming isle of more than a few retail stores and have to say that TBS games seem to be pretty few and far between when compared to other games. I know of no government regulations which say a company is only allowed to sell its product for a marginal profit (but who knows in our society). If a company creates something good then it should be rewarded for it. It should be able to sell it for whatever price it thinks it can get for its product. I know of no regulations which say that everyone should be able to afford a product. Of course that doesn't mean that there is not more profit to be made in making a product affordable by a larger number of people. Also it doesn't mean that a company may decide on its own that it wants to make the product available to more people by marking the price for less than what it could otherwise expect to get for the product. I can only hope that the proceeds of AE will go in two basic directions: 1. Some of it will go toward further development of a profitable game (ie. WITP II). 2. Some of it will go into the pockets of all those involved in improving the game as a reward for their dedication and commitment. As for having "faith" in the design team, my faith is that if there are any bugs, the design team will stay true to its record and try to quash whatever bugs appear in further fixes. WITP has an excellent record of support as far as I am concerned.

Theopolis -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/24/2007 1:28:24 AM)
I have enjoyed many hours of WITP, but I am not sure I am willing to pay a full game price for and expansion unless they bother to improve the terrible looking fonts in the information pop-up panels. Sure, the improvements are great, but the game looks dated. I am wondering why it is such a technical hurdle for them to modernize the graphics. Year 2008 is upon us, and this game looks ten years old.

wworld7 -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/24/2007 1:32:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Theopolis I have enjoyed many hours of WITP, but I am not sure I am willing to pay a full game price for and expansion unless they bother to improve the terrible looking fonts in the information pop-up panels.� Sure, the improvements are great, but the game looks dated.� I am wondering why it is such a technical hurdle for them to modernize the graphics.� Year 2008 is upon us, and this game looks ten years old.� If we ever get a WITP2 the FONTS hopefully will be improved. Until then we can dream.

JeffroK -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/24/2007 4:22:05 AM)
My Christmas wish (its Chrissy Eve), is that all those who would probably not be buying Admirals Edition please go somewhere where they are interested. What thrill do you get by posting here?[&:]

witpqs -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/24/2007 4:53:42 AM)
I posted that hypothetical cost analysis with the thought that maybe some of them just want to be convinced.

Admiral DadMan -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/24/2007 8:20:25 PM)
Perhaps we could take up a collection for those who are loathe to part with their brass...[:D]

okami -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/24/2007 8:54:19 PM)
I wondering for all those who are worried about the price. If it is a matter of cost ie: you can't afford the $100+. I have the solution or rather the game has the solution. Buy it, don't worry initial about the cost because in the long run you will recoup the cost. And here is how. Hypothetically you have an argument with your wife/girlfriend. So as damage repair you take them out to dinner and a movie or you buy them flowers or jewelry. Here is how WITP AE takes care of this problem and saves you money. Once you start playing you will lose your social life and probably your wife/girlfriend. Thus that argument you would of had never happens and that Diamond Pendant you saw on that DeBeeres commurcial well you won't be buying it. Thus AE has already saved you money. As you no longer have a social life AE saves you even more money on things like Christmas/Birthday presents, gasoline, and air fare to places you would have gone to but now can't seem to find the time. Put plainly AE will save you money so buy it.

Williamb -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/28/2007 2:51:47 AM)
If we need the original game and if we are only charged the eqivalent of an add on rather than a full price. (Id go as high was $50 but more than that would be a bit much) I can see getting Admiral's edition. If they plan to charge as much as the original I dont think I would get it. A completely revamped game yes and upgraded game no.

wworld7 -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/28/2007 4:03:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: William Amos If we need the original game and if we are only charged the eqivalent of an add on rather than a full price. (Id go as high was $50 but more than that would be a bit much) I can see getting Admiral's edition. � If they plan to charge as much as the original I dont think I would get it. A completely revamped game yes and upgraded game no. Which is what you stated when you started this thread. Maybe you'll change your thoughts on its value when it actually arrives. Or somewhere down the road it may show up during the Christmas/New Years/Holiday Sale and be at an acceptable price. Everybody WINS!!!

crsutton -> RE: Why I probably wont be buying Admirals Edition (12/28/2007 6:49:30 PM)
I have gotten tons of quality playing time with both UV and WITP. My "go to" games for the last five years. Yeah, count me in.

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