RE: What´s this pictures history? (Full Version)

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tocaff -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 6:57:25 PM)

I'm surprised that a bit of a photo of a ship can be identified, but nothing on this picture.



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 7:01:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I'm surprised that a bit of a photo of a ship can be identified, but nothing on this picture.



We can all make guesses, and one of them might be correct, but who is to know?? In the ship photo ID contests, people guess at things all the time.



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 7:24:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

I'm surprised that a bit of a photo of a ship can be identified, but nothing on this picture.



We can all make guesses, and one of them might be correct, but who is to know?? In the ship photo ID contests, people guess at things all the time.

[:)]The majority of the ship contests are allied ships , and the photo's have been documented. Having spent hundreds of hours looking at thousands of wartime photo's for three different museums , I can tell you that about 85% of undocumented photo's get a great big ? on the back. You can ID uniforms,weapons , geo features and sometimes even people to get an approximate time , but often that's about it. Propaganda photo's (unless you have original document -copy of the magazine it appeared in , etc) are a real pain as they are more likely to be using prop's vice real items. This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military , as military people of the time period knew how to blow things up (and pepper them with shrapnel) not give good special effects. (Today they do , but largely to make training more acurrate , rather than stage propaganda). So other than the fact it was staged early in the war , pre 1943 , professionally done by a film studio , there is not much I can tell you from this print. And I'll bet every one who reads this forum could tell you the same thing. [:)]



Joe D. -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 7:27:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... Many pictures looked staged that are not. Flag raising of Iwo Jima for example.


Honestly, in additon to the actual flag raising shot at Iwo, Rosenthal also took a staged photo afterward, but it was because he didn't think he captured the original and didn't want to return back down the mountain empty-handed.

There was also a controversy w/Rosenthal's "real" photo and another taken of the first flag raising w/a smaller flag by another photographer, who I believe worked for Leatherneck magazine. I recall Rosenthal worked for the AP.

Again, your photo is too interesting, and whomever took it had the presence of mind to turn the camera on its end and take a portrait shot -- instead of the typical landscape angle -- which usu. doesn't happen in actual combat.

This photo could have been a promotional still for an IJ WW II propaganda film, although its "portrait" orientation couldn't have come from a frame of a movie.

Ike, when you first found this photo, was there any (relevant) text that went w/it?






Snowman999 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 7:35:35 PM)


quote:

Will that be modelled in AE?


Well played, sir! [;)]



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 7:39:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... Many pictures looked staged that are not. Flag raising of Iwo Jima for example.


Honestly, in additon to the actual flag raising shot at Iwo, Rosenthal also took a staged photo afterward, but it was because he didn't think he captured the original and didn't want to return back down the mountain empty-handed.

There was also a controversy w/Rosenthal's "real" photo and another taken of the first flag raising w/a smaller flag by another photographer, who I believe worked for Leatherneck magazine. I recall Rosenthal worked for the AP.






i hadn't heard that before, although i had heard he had taken a picture of a bunch of guys posing for a photo (a kind of unit shot) on the same roll of film ... according to an interview i read (many years ago).

He had an inquiry of "was that photo staged?" and he thought they were talking about the group photo, and so replied "yes" - and this started the "the photo was staged" business.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 7:49:46 PM)

That is Toshiro Mifune on the right..he is sucking in his lower lip for dramatic effect.


I think the other guy is a guy I knew in high school named Alan Hata. I am pretty sure he had Asperger's syndrome. If that were a real artillery round going off behind Alan, he would already be peppered (if not sawn in half) with shrapnel. I bet he got Toshiro's autograph.

Here is Toshiro's picture. I can't find one for Alan.

[image]local://upfiles/7983/E4443CFDF5E0492D8FF8FAA79204FC3F.jpg[/image]



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 7:55:53 PM)

[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/19240/5EFA1A07979342919B12A6FDB33ED54A.jpg[/image][image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/7983/E4443CFDF5E0492D8FF8FAA79204FC3F.jpg[/image]I don't think so!



ChezDaJez -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:11:37 PM)

quote:

So in other words you don´t know either and should just shut the F up.

Yeah I´m starting to agree with some other posters and believe the Matrix forums are better left to the Yankees, their propaganda and their unique sense of insecurity.


My, oh my...

You asked for comments... you got them. And they explained (Joe D in particular) that the photo was probably staged.

Then you turn and around tell everyone that they don't know what they are talking about and to "shut the F up!". Then you try to blame your dislike of the answers on the Yankees. Dude, you probably didn't notice because of your own bias but at least half of the posters who answered your question aren't from America.

Chez




Hortlund -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:20:05 PM)

I have found some answers!!


After googling "the biggest mouth in the history of the world" and variations on that theme, I found this.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Schedel'sche_Weltchronik-Big_mouth.jpg/643px-Schedel'sche_Weltchronik-Big_mouth.jpg[/img]

As you can see, the similarities are too obvious to ignore.

Here the mystery thickens though, as the image I found is a drawing from the 15th century. Can it be that we have stumbled upon evidence of some Japanese version of the Philadelphia experiment? Is the mouth big enough to have its own gravitational field, and this somehow disrupts the time/space continuum, and a wormhole was opened between 15th century Europe and a Japanese propaganda photo-studio in 1943? More questions...can we find the answers?



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:28:14 PM)

Panzerjag , I'm begining to worry about you and this oral fixation. I'll bet Freud would have a thing or two to say about this. [:D]



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:30:08 PM)

quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.

[image]local://upfiles/19240/E8F776D426AA4D2EA5AECFACFFC0B22E.jpg[/image]



goodboyladdie -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:30:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Panzerjag , I'm begining to worry about you and this oral fixation. I'll bet Freud would have a thing or two to say about this. [:D]


If he is into Natalie Portman and has an oral fixation, Freud would probably say he was wired right!



Joe D. -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:34:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i hadn't heard that before, although i had heard he had taken a picture of a bunch of guys posing for a photo (a kind of unit shot) on the same roll of film ... according to an interview i read (many years ago).

He had an inquiry of "was that photo staged?" and he thought they were talking about the group photo, and so replied "yes" - and this started the "the photo was staged" business.


Yes, Rosenthal called the staged photo his "graduation" shot, and it was obviously posed. But his real flag raising photo was so good someone at AP asked if it was genuine, and Joe thought it was in reference to the "fake" photo. Again, I don't think Rosenthal was sure he even captured the actual flag raising.

Two separate flag rasings on Iwo by two different photogs didn't help, either, as there was another controversy as to who was in each photo as different men helped raise both flags.

But since IJ was better organized, I don't think there's much controversy over Ike's pic; again, it's just too good to be real, but as to where it came from ...



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:38:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.

[image]local://upfiles/19240/E8F776D426AA4D2EA5AECFACFFC0B22E.jpg[/image]

[:)] I'd say it is keeping with a staged photo done by Military--In this case IJN people. Keep in mind that propaganda , like journalism , occurs at all levels. In this case , it's done by a particular military force (The INJ's Naval Landing force) vice the other one which I belive was done by a studio. A comparison would be a base newspaper (or small town) with the capacity of Warner brothers. I'd say that both are staged. If you look at real combat photo's (like say Capra at Normandy or Steichen in the Pacific) one over riding thing jumps out at you--they are messy. Caotic and disorderly. An general rule of thumb is , if its neat or clean , it's probably not genuine. This isn't always true , obviously , but fewcameramen are willing to die for that photo. And very few combattants will take the time to look into the camera. [:)]



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:40:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Panzerjag , I'm begining to worry about you and this oral fixation. I'll bet Freud would have a thing or two to say about this. [:D]


If he is into Natalie Portman and has an oral fixation, Freud would probably say he was wired right!

[:D] Oh , I didn't say he was wired wrong , just a little bit heavy on the "current". [:D]



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 8:44:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.

[image]local://upfiles/19240/E8F776D426AA4D2EA5AECFACFFC0B22E.jpg[/image]


i don't think that is correct - when i saw the photo, i immediately thought of the description of the Japanese film made about taking Corregidor, which prominently features a Japanese soldier lobbing grenade after grenade into the enemy, blowing them up. BTW, this was based on an actual incident, except the grenade thrower was American. The film was shown to US survivors of the attack who commented on this (much to the annoyance of the Japanese).

However, i think the thrower was supposed to be on a water tower of some kind, so this probably is not the incident. However, if the unknown photo is a still from a theatrical presentation (rather than a staged photo with troops for newsreels) i would expect grim expressions, explosions, blackened faces, flags in the dirt, etc.



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 9:07:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

AW1Steve- This one obviously was staged , but better than most. Uniforms , weapons and props (US flag on ground) appear to be real , current with the time period , and correctly worn. I'm guessing the explosion was done by theatrical people vice military.


Here is a staged picture AW1Steve. No explosions, no blackened faces, no grim, desperate expressions. The picture in question does not seem in keeping to the Japanese propaganda style of the period.

[image]local://upfiles/19240/E8F776D426AA4D2EA5AECFACFFC0B22E.jpg[/image]


i don't think that is correct - when i saw the photo, i immediately thought of the description of the Japanese film made about taking Corregidor, which prominently features a Japanese soldier lobbing grenade after grenade into the enemy, blowing them up. BTW, this was based on an actual incident, except the grenade thrower was American. The film was shown to US survivors of the attack who commented on this (much to the annoyance of the Japanese).

However, i think the thrower was supposed to be on a water tower of some kind, so this probably is not the incident. However, if the unknown photo is a still from a theatrical presentation (rather than a staged photo with troops for newsreels) i would expect grim expressions, explosions, blackened faces, flags in the dirt, etc.

I was thinking more along the lines of "staged on the scene" at the time. Think of Patton's Landing in Sicily , which he alledgely had them reshoot several times because he was not happy with it. Or McArthurs "I returned" photo , which was posed , but done in one take , (Despte McAuther being somewhat "p-ssed" because the water was higher than he expected. One thing that second photo showes acurrately is that Japanese troops were far more likely to use their knee-mortars (which gave you range , accurracy and , if used correctly -safety) than close to grenade tossing range. And wouldn't they? They had them , and the allies didn't.



06 Maestro -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 9:22:08 PM)

Hey Ike

There is a chance the actors are still alive. If you post this picture on a Japanese site, you just might be able to learn all about the production.
Good luck on your search for knowledge.



Sonny II -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 9:54:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

.................

Will that be modelled in AE?


You'll have to ask in the Land Thread in the design subforum.




rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 9:56:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny II


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

.................

Will that be modelled in AE?


You'll have to ask in the Land Thread in the design subforum.




[:D] [:D]



Dixie -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:07:34 PM)

It's not to do with the photo, but here's a few lines froma 1944 Japanese propaganda leaflet about faking the signs of neurosis which I found interesting [:D] The leaflet had 13 parageraphs telling a GI what not to do:

Don’t fall into the habit of glancing sideways at your comrades-in-arms. Your surgeon dislikes such a habit, as it predicts the approaching menace of neuroses.
Don’t eat your own excrement or drink your own urine in the presence of others. If you do, you are sure to be branded as a lunatic, however warmly you may protest. [X(][:D]

Don’t mumble the same words immediately after you have spoken them. If you practice it repeatedly, your surgeon’s verdict will inevitably be neurosis.


(The smileys are added by me BTW...)



niceguy2005 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:20:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I have found some answers!!


After googling "the biggest mouth in the history of the world" and variations on that theme, I found this....


I could give you suggestions on "the biggest mouth in history", but....[sm=innocent0009.gif]

[;)]



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:26:12 PM)

quote:

Hey Ike

There is a chance the actors are still alive. If you post this picture on a Japanese site, you just might be able to learn all about the production.
Good luck on your search for knowledge.


Actors? There are many pictures from WW2 maestro that appear to be made by actors or ¨staged¨ or faked in some way when in fact they are not.

But it´s not suprising you pass judgement on this picture without a shred of any actual, historic record and when no one yet can point to where it came from or when.

Yes I will continue to look for some factual historic record on this picture and dismiss unfounded ¨opinions.¨

But I do like my history to be based upon some sort of credible facts and not just fashioned to the way I like it or simply what I ¨think¨.



[image]local://upfiles/19240/A878D19F1BA0431CAB2649BECC085B11.jpg[/image]



Mike Scholl -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:30:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

[image]http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/19240/5EFA1A07979342919B12A6FDB33ED54A.jpg[/image]



One thing makes me suspect this is a "posed" shot. If you are standing up to throw a grenade at someone, it's really stupid to yell and attract his attention (and fire) before you have safely "hit the dirt" again. Looks more like Hollywood's idea of combat than any member of "the right honorable brotherhood of dem wat has been shot at".



Dixie -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:37:08 PM)

Most 'combat' photos from WW2 were staged, it was a secondary consideration when compared to actually winning the battle.  As others have said, what kind of lunatic photographer would be between his own troops and the enemy whilst his guys are lobbing grenades over his head with artillery rounds exploding around him? [X(]

It looks too neat and posed to be a real combat photo, if it was taken under real combat conditions in that position the picture would be more likely to be off kilter.  I also like the way the American flag has fallen in such a convenient place.




witpqs -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:38:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Ike, as a former military journalist w/some PR experince, this photo looks like it was posed deliberately and not an actual combat photo.

Notice the almost theatrical-like expressions on these soldiers faces; and to capture these expressions, the photographer was ahead of them while they were throwing a grenade in his direction. What does that tell you?

As a photograper, I can tell you that the picture is perfectly cropped (framed) and composed, almost too good for real life. Recall that Joe Rosenthall's flag raising at Iwo pic was almost an accident as he was caught off-guard and wasn't even looking thru his view finder (no SLRs back then).

Finally, the crumpled US flag is just too convenient; it looks like a prop placed on the ground.

Ike, this photo is most probably an IJ PR fabrication; i.e., it was faked.


Plus, if the enemy is close enough to throw a grenade at them, the guy on the lower right is being awfully casual with his rifle...



TulliusDetritus -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:39:58 PM)

To me this seems an authentic war photo.

Mike, many soldiers "yell" in the battlefield. The most famous two WW2 photos (Iwo Jima and the red banner over the Reichstag) were sort of fake. By that I mean these were not the first, original flags. In both cases, detachments were sent to deploy another flag. Both Rosenthal and Khaldey did an excellent artistic job though.

EDITED: I think you all should be avoiding an analythical approach: "humm, this is not normal, etc., etc.". War is the most surrealistic thing you may imagine. So who are we to say "this [Japanese] soldier is weird!"? Another problem is that those who truly fought in the first line almost NEVER talk about their horrible experiences... So what's "normal" in the battlefield? [;)]

EDITED BIS: oh oh, I did not notice the American flag... I thought it was a Japanese flag (I didn't see the stars). That makes the pic fake then.



goodboyladdie -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:46:28 PM)

Hey Tullius

I am having a little trouble with RHS. As you have a lot of experience playing it, could you look in on the thread on AAA values in the design forum and give me the benefit of your opinion, please?

Very best regards

Carl



TulliusDetritus -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/11/2007 10:51:26 PM)

Carl, well, I don't think that is true, but if I can I will try to help you. Presto then [:)]



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