RE: What´s this pictures history? (Full Version)

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tsimmonds -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 4:08:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

There's good irrelevant and bad irrelevant.


I only know the good one. He has taught me a lot about this game. Does he have an evil twin? I know one got banned in Universe 32 for double registering. Was that him?

There is neither good nor bad; only I am irrelevant.[;)]



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 4:21:33 AM)

quote:

irrelevant- Look again


Hey! Wow! You right! [:D]

Someone said they did a search for that but I bet they didn´t try in Japanese. I bet that´s the ticket.



Feinder -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 8:18:41 AM)

Ike,

While alternative tellings of histories are indeed valuable, it is necessary to gather the broad base of knowledge. Yes, Dower's book has value, and it widens the base of knowledge that is available. However, by itself, or among it's it's few peers of similar perception, it amounts to only one stone in the foundation of knowledge. While many authors (and their devoted readers) would love to be ground breaking, paradign shattering, cornerstones of knowledge about a subject, the truth is, they very rarely (if ever) are. By waving the flag of Dower above all else, you fall into the same tunnel of myopathy that you accuse those that you disagree with.

The truth of the matter of the matter is
a. un-knowable in it's entirety
b. and yet the sum of all the parts, some parts more valueable than others but no part is irreplaceable.

A new perspective on an old subject is a good thing. But it's also important to keep that new perspective in perspective.



mlees -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 9:19:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

irrelevant- Look again


Hey! Wow! You right! [:D]

Someone said they did a search for that but I bet they didn´t try in Japanese. I bet that´s the ticket.


I don't speak or read Japanese, so I can't effectively search those sources. If you can, I hope you have more success than I did.

From what little I can figure out, the poster in question is/was printed as an advertisement poster. (Advertiseing what, I am not sure.) Whether the soldiers in the poster were staged for the poster maker, or if they were from actual battle scene (war correspondent) records, I have no idea.

That poster appeared in a photo of a street scene (printed by the Tokyo newspaper, Ashahi Shimbun) that was taken in Tokyo, 1943.

I would suggest that the next step is to check with that paper archive section. Or, alternatively, you could ask the Art Director of GMT games, where they got permission to put that picture (i.e., what the source was) on their box cover. (They may refer you to the Asahi Shimbun. Heh.)



Sabre21 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 4:09:53 PM)

Hey guys

From my observation of the original photo posted at the top of this thread, the explosion and sky in the background was an added in backdrop. If you look carefully at the outline of the two guys, you will see just that...an outline, which indicates an added backdrop. You dont see that in the other black and white photo with the troops carrying the flag.

From a realistic perspective, and having spent a long time in the infantry myself, the guy taking the picure would not be in front of the guy throwing the grenade nor would the guy next to him just be lying there lacksadaisical like. He would either be taking cover from the upcoming blast or be firing his weapon suppressing the foe so his buddy could get his grenade off without getting whacked.

So if I wanted to be looking for the source of this pic, I would be looking at either the Japanese or US film making industry. This could very well have been a US made picture for either a WWII movie or propaganda, or it could have been Japanese. Either way it is definitely a staged scene.



06 Maestro -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 5:36:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99


quote:


Are you not the same fellow who accused U.S. soldiers of placing Japanese heads on the front of their tanks and presented a photo of a Japanese tank to make your point? I suggest you double check your "credible facts" before making a fool of yourself. You are clearly a victim of brainwashing...Find some new sources of information...


Excuse me, the only one who is making a fool of themselves and showing their ignorance is you and how you ¨think¨ your history and then dismiss what you don´t like.

Maybe, just maybe there might be some hope for you. Here is a book by John W. Dower. This man has a Phd. from Harvard, is a professor and historian. He has won a Pulitzer Prize for nonfiction. He is one of the leading experts on the Pacific War and Japanese and American relations today. This man doesn´t ¨think¨ history he knows history.

If you have any doubt as to what I said in the Iwo Jima thread I suggest you pick up his book ¨War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War¨ here...

http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728

There is a used copy for 4.95 it seems. So you have no excuse. After reading that book maybe you should send him an email, his email is on his site at the University he teaches. If you have any doubts or questions, ask him.

After you get done reading that book you can read....

Hell in the Pacific; From Pearl Harbor to Hiroshima and
Beyond

http://www.antiqbook.co.uk/boox/lit/44234.shtml

Another book on the War in the Pacific War without the white wash. Then perhaps you can find the film under the same with very rare, authentic footage.

Yes, you can do these things and get the full picture of the
Pacific War or you can keep to your nice, Hollywood style
good guy/bad guy, packaged history. You might not like what you find however.

That´s all I know to offer you....¨fellow¨

So let´s leave it at that and leave this thread to information on this picture.

Now back to your regular scheduled hunt for info on that picture. There was no credits given to that picture in the GMT box cover or rulebook. I sent off this email to the gamebox designer so maybe he has some information....

quote:

Hello Rodger.

I am curious as to the cover art you did for GMT´s ¨Empire of
the Sun¨ The cover art seems based upon a picture I have attached
here from the war. I am wondering if you have any information as to the origin of this picture.

Do you know where and how this picture came about?

Mario.





[image]local://upfiles/19240/0D1EAA4BB2524E8AA8A95D7E57A34C3F.jpg[/image]


You have made some rather large and groundless presumptions about my views on the Pacific war. Nowhere have I stated that there were no crimes against Japanese soldiers, nowhere have I claimed that there was no racism on the part of American soldiers/marines. In fact, I have stated that more than once publicly on this forum-in places that you should have been able to see. What I have stated, which apparently you can't stand, is that Japan was a power that needed to be defeated, as its crimes against humanity were far too great to allow it to continue.

You also take a rather large leap of faith in my appreciation of Hollywood-the only good war U.S. war movie that I have seen was "Band of Brother's. Some others are not too bad, but for the most part, I can't sit through them. Why you would suppose that I get my historical knowledge from Hollywood is a mystery to me-unless fo course, you view all Americans as morons that hang on Hollywood's every clip-that is not how it is.

The fact that you would drag that silly photo onto the web questioning its authenticity is proof that you need to do considerably more reading to be brought up to speed.

Keep reading-now, let's leave it at that.




witpqs -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 8:43:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Hey guys

From my observation of the original photo posted at the top of this thread, the explosion and sky in the background was an added in backdrop. If you look carefully at the outline of the two guys, you will see just that...an outline, which indicates an added backdrop. You dont see that in the other black and white photo with the troops carrying the flag.



Yup, I see that. It's especially noticeable as a white border between the dark helmet of the lower soldier and the dark of the explosion behind him.



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/12/2007 8:55:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Hey guys

From my observation of the original photo posted at the top of this thread, the explosion and sky in the background was an added in backdrop. If you look carefully at the outline of the two guys, you will see just that...an outline, which indicates an added backdrop. You dont see that in the other black and white photo with the troops carrying the flag.



Yup, I see that. It's especially noticeable as a white border between the dark helmet of the lower soldier and the dark of the explosion behind him.


i am guessing this was a rear-screen projection technique... this would project light onto the rear of the subject (i.e. - the helmet) even though the object photographed is supposed to be dark. Thus, you could get a line seen between the foreground and background objects.



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 12:15:52 AM)

quote:

The fact that you would drag that silly photo onto the web questioning its authenticity is proof that you need to do considerably more reading to be brought up to speed.

Keep reading-now, let's leave it at that.


One can be absolutely certain of something and at the same time be absolutely wrong. This ¨silly¨ photo as you like to call it. Your absolutely certain it´s staged and only people who need to do ¨considerably more reading to be brought up to speed¨ would question as to if it is a staged shot or an authentic picture from
combat.

And your qualifications for making such a definative statement?

You haven´t said your a photographer, you haven´t said your an expert on photography or any other type of expert and neither have you claimed to find any historical record for this photograph.

Your qualification for making this definative statement is ¨I think so¨

Ahhh...well move over historical fact and make room for 06 Maestro and ¨I think so¨ [8|]

The simple matter of fact is...you don´t know if that picture is stage or not and no matter how much you think so, until a record of it comes to light no one will.

As it seems that picture at one time was on billboards all around Tokio in 43´, has a name ¨We won´t stop shooting!¨ I´m thinking certainly it has a historical record of some sort. Certainly the Tokio Historical Society will have at least some information about its origin. If not, I´ll keep sending off emails to historical societies, universities and such until its record is found.

If it does come back as an actual combat picture....well honestly, I really don´t know what your going to say.



mjk428 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 12:38:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

If it does come back as an actual combat picture....


It won't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

So if I wanted to be looking for the source of this pic, I would be looking at either the Japanese or US film making industry. This could very well have been a US made picture for either a WWII movie or propaganda, or it could have been Japanese. Either way it is definitely a staged scene.


Agreed.



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 12:48:26 AM)

I gather that Asahi Shimbun who mentioned this picture by name at Nuclearfiles.org is a peace activist from Japan. Why would a peace activist mention a staged combat picture in a commentary? But that doesn´t mean a lot I couldn´t find his email.

It is possible that this picture is both fake and actual combat. The two Japanese troops and the explosion in it could be from an actual combat picture and when they went to put it on billboards in Tokyo they added a dirt foreground with an American flag laying on it. That is a possibility too.



[image]local://upfiles/19240/0F41181F413541A8BCD5FE3C14B5036F.jpg[/image]



mjk428 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 1:08:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I gather that Asahi Shimbun who mentioned this picture by name at Nuclearfiles.org is a peace activist from Japan. Why would a peace activist mention a staged combat picture in a commentary? But that doesn´t mean a lot I couldn´t find his email.

It is possible that this picture is both fake and actual combat. The two Japanese troops and the explosion in it could be from an actual combat picture and when they went to put it on billboards in Tokyo they added a dirt foreground with an American flag laying on it. That is a possibility too.


If it's "fake & combat" then it's fake. Only the original picture would be an actual combat photo. However, I don't see anything in the picture to lead anyone to believe it originated outside of a "Hollywood" backlot. If not for the credit on the game box, I'd peg as a still from a Hollywood film produced during the war that was further enhanced into a movie poster.



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 1:17:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I gather that Asahi Shimbun who mentioned this picture by name at Nuclearfiles.org is a peace activist from Japan. Why would a peace activist mention a staged combat picture in a commentary? But that doesn´t mean a lot I couldn´t find his email.



From Wikipedia: "The Asahi Shimbun (朝日新聞, Asahi Shinbun?, IPA: [asaçi ɕimbɯɴ]) is the second most circulated out of the five national newspapers in Japan;"


quote:



It is possible that this picture is both fake and actual combat. The two Japanese troops and the explosion in it could be from an actual combat picture and when they went to put it on billboards in Tokyo they added a dirt foreground with an American flag laying on it. That is a possibility too.


[image]local://upfiles/19240/0F41181F413541A8BCD5FE3C14B5036F.jpg[/image]


The explosion might be actual combat footage - the guys in the foreground have the white line between themselves and the explosion, indicating they are not part of the footage with the explosion. No lines that i can see between the flag part and the soldiers, which would indicate they were probably shot together.



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 1:23:28 AM)

quote:

However, I don't see anything in the picture to lead anyone to believe it originated outside of a "Hollywood" backlot.


mjk428, take a look at this unstaged, actual combat picture from the Phillipines in 45´ on the left. Look at the explosion.

Now compare that explosion to the explosion in the Japanese picture on right. Certainly when compared to the unstaged explosion on left the explosion in the Japanese picture in question looks very authentic.

You have seen the explosions from the war movies of the time. The explosion don´t look like this.



[image]local://upfiles/19240/EE40802D128F4690BD5141E807F6C8FA.jpg[/image]



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 1:29:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

However, I don't see anything in the picture to lead anyone to believe it originated outside of a "Hollywood" backlot.


mjk428, take a look at this unstaged, actual combat picture from the Phillipines in 45´ on the left. Look at the explosion.

Now compare that explosion to the explosion in the Japanese picture on right. Certainly when compared to the unstaged explosion on left the explosion in the Japanese picture in question looks very authentic.

You have seen the explosions from the war movies of the time. The explosion don´t look like this.



[image]local://upfiles/19240/EE40802D128F4690BD5141E807F6C8FA.jpg[/image]


Yes - probably the explosion is (probably) real as noted above - combat footage is rear projected onto a stage screen.

Note the line between the actor's helmet and the dark explosion in the background. This shouldn't be present if they were shot together.


[image]local://upfiles/7543/188D6EEE26964E5FBD23F67620DCC68A.jpg[/image]



mjk428 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 1:52:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

However, I don't see anything in the picture to lead anyone to believe it originated outside of a "Hollywood" backlot.


mjk428, take a look at this unstaged, actual combat picture from the Phillipines in 45´ on the left. Look at the explosion.

Now compare that explosion to the explosion in the Japanese picture on right. Certainly when compared to the unstaged explosion on left the explosion in the Japanese picture in question looks very authentic.

You have seen the explosions from the war movies of the time. The explosion don´t look like this.



War movies at the time quite often intercut actual war footage.

I'd be stunned to find out that this anything other than something pieced together for publicity/propaganda purposes. It's obviously doctored but even ignoring that, It would still have to be one of the most astonishing combat photos ever taken. One in a billion. Infinitely more likely that it was cranked out by the film industry.



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 2:04:17 AM)

quote:

rtrapasso-Note the line between the actor's helmet and the dark explosion in the background. This shouldn't be present if they were shot together.


Ahhh...

Take any black and white Japanese camera from the period and where black or a shadow meets a bright or lighter area it produces a line. You can zoom up any one of these pictures and find projection screen lines all over the place, look.



[image]local://upfiles/19240/3F918498FF3443508556BBC60EFAD622.jpg[/image]



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 2:10:49 AM)

[:)] Ike , I've heard a lot of reasons why people seem to feel that this photo is staged . Why specifically do you feel that it's genuine combat footage?We have explored supporting data , but it's still lacking. Tell me your gut feelings and why. I'm willing to be convinced. [:)]



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 2:18:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

rtrapasso-Note the line between the actor's helmet and the dark explosion in the background. This shouldn't be present if they were shot together.


Ahhh...

Take any black and white Japanese camera from the period and where black or a shadow meets a bright or lighter area it produces a line. You can zoom up any one of these pictures and find projection screen lines all over the place, look.



[image]local://upfiles/19240/3F918498FF3443508556BBC60EFAD622.jpg[/image]



Sorry - they do not look the same to me at all. The lines show differing thickness in the "grenade" photo.

Also, do not confuse these with "Mach" lines - lines you eye will "create" in seeing different densities next to each other... they are a form of optical illusion:

"Mach bands are optical illusions produced by an extensive lateral inhibition network within the retina. They are seen on every radiograph. Both positive and negative Mach bands can be seen at a boundary, but only one type is usually seen at boundaries created by biological structures because of their shape."

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1740-8261.1990.tb00801.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=vru


These show up in looking at x-rays where i first encountered the phenomenom - but they also show up in looking at almost anything when you carefully examine stuff (esp B&W photos).

When you encounter them, you will swear there is a line present - but if you scan with a densitometer, there is no line actually present. They are usually very thin and pretty homogenous, not varying greatly in thickness.

EDIT: Notice the lines you have pointed out are between light and dark objects. The lines on the "grenade" photo are seen consistently (not just in one area) between two dark objects (the helmet and the explosion so indicate light being projected onto the foreground object.

If the light colored line was just on one side (instead of all around) you could possibly argue it was reflection from a light source from that side, but not if a light line it is on two separate sides.

Notice there is light on 3 sides of the fist from the photo from the "grenade" photo.

[image]local://upfiles/7543/AC2897D2A59F45628389DAF5DD04C29B.jpg[/image]



06 Maestro -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 2:30:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99


If it does come back as an actual combat picture....well honestly, I really don´t know what your going to say.



The only thing I could say it that your "experts" are either liars, or fools lacking any common sense. As an honorable man with common sense, that would have to be the answer.

I don't feel compelled to present my credentials for your examination-it is strange that you would ask; in a round about way, or any way for that matter.

You may comfort yourself with the thought of me reading about the pain and suffering of the Japanese army fighting against the "red haired barbarians", as I will buy one of your suggested books tonight. I may come across a few new atrocities I was not aware of already, but that will not change the strategic situation of one side being on the "right" and the other on the "wrong".

I do wish you luck in finding the origins of the photo. Don't be surpised if it turns out to be U.S. prapaganda material. As I'm sure you can imagine, many do not like to see "Old Glory" lying in the mud at the feet of the enemy-slightly irritating.



Feinder -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 2:41:59 AM)

Ike,

What's the point of asking the question, if you've already decided what the answer is, and that everyone that offers a different hypothesis is wrong?

-F-



Terminus -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 3:01:28 AM)

It's called trolling, I think...



TOMLABEL -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 3:27:06 AM)

It's fake. I took the picture, already. [:D]

What a waste.

TOMLABEL



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 4:36:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL

It's fake. I took the picture, already. [:D]



You rascal!!! [:-] [:D]



Hortlund -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 9:25:44 AM)

[img]http://www.godzillatemple.com/photos/godzilla78.jpg[/img]




[image]local://upfiles/1562/DBDD6942AB6C497F898D6043E054BC0D.jpg[/image]



pasternakski -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 9:48:30 AM)

.

[image]local://upfiles/6977/F8D8196845A74B799F0EB7D56132D40D.gif[/image]



m10bob -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 10:17:48 AM)

FWIW, I did a google search and this wargame critic claims the boxtop pic was from a wartime Japanese propaganda poster on the side of a building in Tokyo.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/75646

I learned to take pics in the late 50's on a pair of war era Leica 35mm cameras, and for "action" pics, I find the pic remarkable in that it is "in focus", and set for such a short distance.
If it were not staged for such a short distance, one might wonder why a combat photographer would be willing to get so close to enemy exposure??

My personal combat "credentials" are such that I know it would be foolish to expose ones back to an enemy, and I doubt many American fighting men would have ALLOWED their flag to be on the ground, as in this pic, (besides, such a small flag would not be standard issue for any unit in the American army.)
This is a staged pic.

Back to the game.



Charles2222 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 1:10:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Hey guys

From my observation of the original photo posted at the top of this thread, the explosion and sky in the background was an added in backdrop. If you look carefully at the outline of the two guys, you will see just that...an outline, which indicates an added backdrop. You dont see that in the other black and white photo with the troops carrying the flag.

From a realistic perspective, and having spent a long time in the infantry myself, the guy taking the picure would not be in front of the guy throwing the grenade nor would the guy next to him just be lying there lacksadaisical like. He would either be taking cover from the upcoming blast or be firing his weapon suppressing the foe so his buddy could get his grenade off without getting whacked.

So if I wanted to be looking for the source of this pic, I would be looking at either the Japanese or US film making industry. This could very well have been a US made picture for either a WWII movie or propaganda, or it could have been Japanese. Either way it is definitely a staged scene.


Just a sidenote. Is it entirely possible that the lying soldier doesn't know the standing one is standing? Yes. Is it even more entirely possible, in real combat that is, that even if he does know he is standing there, that he doesn't know the other is fixing to throw a grenade? I say yes to that too. Taking the shot alone, you cannot conclude with all certainty that the one on the ground sees/knows what you see/know.



Reg -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 1:40:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

In combat, you don't want to stand in between the two opposing forces to snap a picture.

Standing in the line of sight/line of fire violates the camera warranty.


I have two words to say to this: Damien Parer (1912 - 1944) - look him up.

Unfortunately the second statement also proved to be accurate.



tocaff -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/13/2007 2:17:07 PM)

So this will remain one of the great controversial mysteries of the Matrix Forums only to be unearthed when things are peacefully quiet?



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