RE: Whats the point? (Full Version)

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Ike99 -> RE: Whats the point? (12/14/2007 5:11:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve-Ike , I've heard a lot of reasons why people seem to feel that this photo is staged . Why specifically do you feel that it's genuine combat footage? We have explored supporting data , but it's still lacking. Tell me your gut
feelings and why. I'm willing to be convinced.

This was the question IKE.


Ahh, OK Steve.

Well I hope you can undertand how your question got lost in the shuffle when my own stated opinion got twisted into ¨Ike says this is a an authentic combat picture. ¨[:D]

This is what I have actually said Steve, my comments cut and pasted.


quote:

I´ve seen this picture around in several places but have never heard of where it came from or how. I´m thinking it came from some Japanese propaganda film and is staged as there is an American flag laying in the dirt. But then it looks like there is an explosion happening in the background so maybe it is the slide in a film of actual combat or something. So I´m of different opinions. A very interesting picture either way though.


quote:

I´m undecided and will keep looking for something about the picture though.


quote:

As it seems that picture at one time was on billboards all around Tokio in 43´, has a name ¨We won´t stop shooting!¨


quote:

It is possible that this picture is both fake and actual combat. The two Japanese troops and the explosion in it could be from an actual combat picture and when they went to put it on billboards in Tokyo they added a dirt foreground with an American flag laying on it. That is a possibility too.


quote:

If this picture is fake it certainly is unusual as far as propaganda pieces.


Now as you can see from what I have actually said Steve I was undecided before and am still undecided. Are the two soldiers actually fighting from somewhere with a foreground added? Is the whole picture staged somewhere including the explosion in background or is that ¨real¨ and the two soldiers staged...etc, etc, etc.

As tocaff said, show a bolt and a piece of railing from a ship and someone will tell you the ships name, when it was launched, commisioned and sunk.

Show a picture of two Japanese soldiers, no one has a clue. So this picture is a bit of an enigma it seems.

I have no problem someone coming up with ¨We won´t stop shooting!¨ Filmed backlot B, Tokyo studios 1942. Ref. Book ¨X¨. But as this picture is certainly a dramatic one, for me at least, I would like to know where it comes from and how. Certainly the answer is out there as I´m sure it has been published somewhere.




quote:

Terminus-I retract my previous statement that he claimed Argentina won the Falklands war; I just went back and checked the thread (thought it had been deleted), and he said no such thing.


Well thank you very much Terminus and I say to everyone I don´t know anything about Terminus or his personal life or bravery so what I said before is completely baseless.

I do say this though Terminus. You play very loose and fast with your quotes. I think we both know my opinions on certain matters are not in the mainstream on this forum. However even PanzerJaeger got my quote on his parody thread correct.

I´m sure you can find plenty of actual, unpopular quotes I´ve made on subjects on the forum so you shouldn´t have to invent any. I don´t shy away from my opinions no matter how unpopular.

I believe there was widespread killing of Japanese soldiers in WW2, both POW´s and those attempting to surrender by Allied soldiers.

I believe the Malvinas belongs to Argentina, not Britain and they were stolen.

I believe the Japanese were forced into a war against the United States by the US oil embargo and they didn´t really want a war with the US.

Now there. You can copy and paste these unpopular quotes from me all over. No need to invent anything as I stand by them and other similiar quotes because that´s what I believe.

quote:

Terminus-....and that the Argentine air force currently operates Su-30's, which supposedly should give the RAF Typhoon something to worry about.


Ah..Ah..Ah..Terminus. You better learn to use the copy-&-paste. That thread has been months ago and I do remember mentioning the delivery and operational status of the SU27´s delivered to Chavez in Venezuela. I also seem to recall saying Russia had been here a few weeks ago (at that time) offering the sale of SU-30´s to Argentina. Operational status? Better check that one Terminus.

Yes I do recall saying the SU-30 would give the Typhoon something to worry about as I consider it a top rate world fighter.


@Everyone.I did see some other people complaining about misquotes on the Iwo Jima thread not related to me. If your going to quote someone or say someone said something use copy and paste.

Blah...

I´m sure many people now have searched for this pictures record now. I don´t think anyone here is going to be able to find out where it came from anyways.



Doggie -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 8:08:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's called trolling, I think...


Mark your calender. For once I agree with Terminus. Ike is a troll. You guys are suckers for even responding to this nonsense. Don't play his game by taking him seriously, as it's obvious he has no interest in facts or actual history.



UniformYankee -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 9:20:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's called trolling, I think...


Mark your calender. For once I agree with Terminus. Ike is a troll. You guys are suckers for even responding to this nonsense. Don't play his game by taking him seriously, as it's obvious he has no interest in facts or actual history.



My goodness, then I must make it a threesome, if the dog and the termi agree, who am I to disagree!! The opposing forces of the universe are aligned!! Could Armagedon be upon us??
[:D]

p.s. the pic is offensive ... and probably meant merely to inspire friction ... I must agree !!![&o]



bobogoboom -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 10:02:08 AM)

I think we can all agree that ike is just a troll. But i think this thread has run it's course and should be locked.



histgamer -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 10:27:20 AM)

Terminus the Su-30 is a damn good plane though not as good as a new EF-2000 it is better than most other fighters of older models. That said I have never heard of Argentina having them. Frankly I highly doubt they have the funds for them. Algeria has purchased several along with some highly upgraded Mig-29s that have thrust vectoring and are also damn fine planes. Venezuela also has some Mig-29OVTs or SU-30MKKs (cant remember which both highly upgraded and damn fine planes) Syria has a couple Mig-29SMTs (better than the any F-15 modals but not a F-22 obviously though difference between the Mig-29SMT and OVT is OVT has thrust vectoring) I have never heard of Argentina getting Su-30s unless that was very recent...

Ike you said at the start your gut feeling was that the picture was propaganda yet you seem highly convinced of the opposite. In fact if you are so damn convinced that its real why not just admit it. I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other... I don’t care really but it certainly seems from an outside opinion that you are totally convinced its real but don’t want to admit it for whatever reason.



Charles2222 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 10:42:14 AM)

Ike99:
quote:

Filmed backlot B, Tokyo studios 1942


Think about that phrase real hard. What does it mean? I could be wrong, but to me it implies an entirely fake photo. They "filmed" it in a "backlot"? By filming, does that mean what it typically means, or does it mean it was developed there? Assuming it to mean the typical meaning, the only question remaining is were there any USA actions involved in Tokyo in '42 that happened to happen in a backlot attack/defense? I don't think so. Perhaps the only authenticity that could emerge, based on the description, assuming it's accurate, is that maybe the soldiers were rising up against some domestic uprising of some sort, an uprising which may or may not have had recourse to explosives. 



Terminus -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 11:43:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flanyboy

Terminus the Su-30 is a damn good plane though not as good as a new EF-2000 it is better than most other fighters of older models. That said I have never heard of Argentina having them. Frankly I highly doubt they have the funds for them. Algeria has purchased several along with some highly upgraded Mig-29s that have thrust vectoring and are also damn fine planes. Venezuela also has some Mig-29OVTs or SU-30MKKs (cant remember which both highly upgraded and damn fine planes) Syria has a couple Mig-29SMTs (better than the any F-15 modals but not a F-22 obviously though difference between the Mig-29SMT and OVT is OVT has thrust vectoring) I have never heard of Argentina getting Su-30s unless that was very recent...



Never said the Su-30 wasn't a good plane; I said they'd be no match for a Typhoon and that Argentina doesn't have any.



m10bob -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 2:48:41 PM)

I wonder if Ike is really Lt Calley, is really "Tokyo Tensai", is really Whitmire is really...(ad infinitum).......[:'(]



rtrapasso -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 2:58:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniformYankee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It's called trolling, I think...


Mark your calender. For once I agree with Terminus. Ike is a troll. You guys are suckers for even responding to this nonsense. Don't play his game by taking him seriously, as it's obvious he has no interest in facts or actual history.



My goodness, then I must make it a threesome, if the dog and the termi agree, who am I to disagree!! The opposing forces of the universe are aligned!! Could Armagedon be upon us??
[:D]

p.s. the pic is offensive ... and probably meant merely to inspire friction ... I must agree !!![&o]





[image]local://upfiles/7543/C4CEF459C605433A85767ED18A4C675E.jpg[/image]



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 3:21:22 PM)

[:)] Although this thread has produced some good--Doggie and Terminus agreeing has to be considered a good thing , I really think it's time for this thread to be put out of it's misery.  Ike , you never really did answer my question--"what do you want here?".  And you've had  6 pages to make that plain.  I can't speak for others , but I feel that I did listen to you with an open mind, and to me you showed that you don't know what you want (unless you really are a troll-which I'm starting to belive). If you can't move beyond the constant focus on "being slandered" and making some uncalled for accusations of your own , and present a well-crafted , logical case or even a question , then you never will acheive anything positive here. If any moderators have following this  discussion , please consider locking this thread. [:(]



histgamer -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 6:02:46 PM)

No match might be a streach... it is a far better plane however both being as modern as they are and the way dogfights would occur if the pilots of the Su-30 were resonably trained its not like the Typhoon wouldnt suffer losses. If I had to guess I would say all things being equal apart from the aircraft a 5-1 or 4-1 kill ratio in favor of the Typhoon. That said its unlikely unless the UK or any other nation using Typhoons went up against Russia (who doesnt even look to make the Su-30 their front line fighter, that will be some 5-10 years down the road when they plan to introduce a new fighter somewhat like the F-22 though they claim it will be more modern... if they ever manage to fun the damn thing) back to my point odds are the Su-30 pilots would be far inferrior as far as training goes so its somewhat of a moot point.



Terminus -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 6:04:13 PM)

Yeah, like I said... No match...[8|]



Joe D. -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 7:30:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... It is possible that this picture is both fake and actual combat. The two Japanese troops and the explosion in it could be from an actual combat picture and when they went to put it on billboards in Tokyo they added a dirt foreground with an American flag laying on it. That is a possibility too.


[image]local://upfiles/19240/0F41181F413541A8BCD5FE3C14B5036F.jpg[/image]


I think Ike is close, but no cigar.

As a former combat photographer, I would say that the background explosion is real, and a fake foreground -- including soldiers and "prop" flag -- was superimposed over it, then reshot in a portrait orientation. Prior to Photoshop, that would be the simplest way to create this effect.

So unless someone discovers some hard evidence to the contrary, it would certainly be a relief if this was the end of this particular thread, considering all the clones it has inspired.



Knavey -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 7:53:35 PM)

Going to stay out of the more controversial points on this thread but point out something about filmakers that I noticed the other day.

Saving Private Ryan...remember the scene after Tom Hanks squad had moved off the beach and into the bunker area?  There is a clip of some German soldiers running right in front of the US soldiers...crossing the T so to speak but without noticing them.  Powerful camera angle showing how close danger can be without you realizing it.  IIRC, the US soldiers gunned them down.

Now, look at this film of actual footage from Tarawa.  Supposedly the only footage out there that has both combatants in the same frame. (not sure if this is true or not).  Go to around the 8 minute mark and it will happen at 8:40.

http://www.archive.org/details/WiththeMarinesatTarawa

This actual footage is remarkabley similar to the one used in Private Ryan except of course, SPRs footage is a bit more clear.

Just interesting since we were talking about war footage.



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 11:30:07 PM)

quote:

Knavey-Now, look at this film of actual footage from Tarawa. Supposedly the only footage out there that has both combatants in the same frame. (not sure if this is true or not).


Now I can say Knavey that this is not true...definatively.[;)]

In the fighting on Tarawa the combat photographer was the first one to capture Japanese and American troops actually fighting each other in the same frame. When the Japanese are running from the blockhouse IIRC.

A few other clips stick out in my mind from different places and later in the war. One where a Japanese runs to the top of a sort of ravine and throws down bomb to some Americans.

Another where a Japanese is hiding in a ditch on the side of a road. He gets up, exposes himself and starts running and the Americans starts shooting at him.

The most graphic scene I have seen is some Americans shoot a flame thrower into a dug in bunker like position. A Japanese comes out with his uniform all burnt up and skin. He looks into the camera a second and then starts to run and they shoot him.

I think I have some of these in my collection. If I can´t find them somewhere on the net already uploaded I´ll post them on youtube.



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/14/2007 11:50:49 PM)

Here is a clip I found real quick. I don´t know how many have seen this one so I post it here.

It´s a Japanese pilot who surviived his crash, a US ship, looks like a DD or something moves along side him to pick him up. He pulls out a grenade and kills himself.

Just so everyone knows this video is a bit graphic. So watch at your own discrection.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=WdHezBN5mBE




AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 12:24:38 AM)

Now as you can see from what I have actually said Steve I was undecided before and am still undecided. Are the two soldiers actually fighting from somewhere with a foreground added? Is the whole picture staged somewhere including the explosion in background or is that ¨real¨ and the two soldiers staged...etc, etc, etc.

As tocaff said, show a bolt and a piece of railing from a ship and someone will tell you the ships name, when it was launched, commisioned and sunk.

Show a picture of two Japanese soldiers, no one has a clue. So this picture is a bit of an enigma it seems.

I have no problem someone coming up with ¨We won´t stop shooting!¨ Filmed backlot B, Tokyo studios 1942. Ref. Book ¨X¨. But as this picture is certainly a dramatic one, for me at least, I would like to know where it comes from and how. Certainly the answer is out there as I´m sure it has been published somewhere.


[:)]OK, Ike , I can except this. Of course the reason we can ID the railing is because so many sets of eyes in the forum have seen the photo , or the railing , or are familiar with some aspect of the case. What we need here is a Japanese speaking , cinematography expert. We have been trying to judge the photo based on the experince we have in the forum. We have a former combat photographer , several private photographers , some people who are very knowledgable about WW2 in the Pacific, and some people who have spent a LOT of time looking at world war 2 photos. While this experince base might give us a good "feel" for the photo , we just don't have the experince base to declare "proof" in one form or the other , until someone can stand up and say , "I took that photo in 19-- at -- with this type of lense and for -------- (this group or organization.). Till then , we won't have, can't have , and shouldn't expect to have adefinative answer. As a favorite college professor of mine used to say "Needs more research". [:)]



Knavey -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 12:39:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Here is a clip I found real quick. I don´t know how many have seen this one so I post it here.

It´s a Japanese pilot who surviived his crash, a US ship, looks like a DD or something moves along side him to pick him up. He pulls out a grenade and kills himself.

Just so everyone knows this video is a bit graphic. So watch at your own discrection.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=WdHezBN5mBE




Ouch.

Interesting about the grenade. Did they typically carry these on kamikaze missions in case they ditched or could not find the target?



Joe D. -> RE: Whats the point? (12/15/2007 1:03:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

... I have no problem someone coming up with ¨We won´t stop shooting!¨ Filmed backlot B, Tokyo studios 1942. Ref. Book ¨X¨. But as this picture is certainly a dramatic one, for me at least, I would like to know where it comes from and how. Certainly the answer is out there as I´m sure it has been published somewhere.

... I´m sure many people now have searched for this pictures record now. I don´t think anyone here is going to be able to find out where it came from anyways.


Ike, try this link:

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues/nuclear-weapons/history/post-cold-war/smithsonian-controversy/enola-gay-exhibit-draft-final-unit-2.htm

Here's what I found on the lower right hand side:

THE JAPANESE HOME FRONT AT WAR

By the summer of 1945, American land, air, and naval forces had finally arrived on the doorstep of the home islands. B-29s of the Twentieth Air Force were systematically destroying Japan's ability to wage war. The submarine campaign and aerial mine laying operations had cut lines of supply and communication.

After the fall of Okinawa, the Japanese people waited in their island fortress, prepared to repulse the enemy on the beaches. Even as their deteriorating situation was increasingly undermining their ability to resist, surrender remained unthinkable, and the war had considerable popular support.

Tokyo street scene, 1943. The advertising slogan beneath the Japanese soldiers on the billboard reads, "We won't stop shooting!"

Courtesy of Asahi Shimbun

(Note: Asahi Shimbun is Japan's national news newspaper)





JWE -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 1:56:46 AM)

Mission accomplished. I will no longer participate in these forums so long as pathetic little pissants like you are allowed to post your juvenile bile. Don’t bother to respond, because I won’t be accessing these forums any longer. I doubt many people will care much, but I just don’t give a rat’s ass anymore. Out.



Doggie -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 2:25:20 AM)

Nitpicking:

[img]http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k312/JSS_05/plane.jpg[/img]

This is a photo of an F4U-5N belonging to a night fighter squadron in Korea, not Okinawa.



Joe D. -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 2:45:03 AM)

Yes Doggie, I know, but I needed a small, color shot of a Corsair flying right to left (into my text) that wasn't copyrighted, and this Wiki public domain photo fit the bill.

The Corsair earned the nickname "The Angel of Okinawa" and/or "The Sweetheart of the Mariannas." I didn't mean to suggest that it was the actual name of the plane in the photo.

Sharp eyes to pick that out, though.



tocaff -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 3:37:55 AM)

Amazing how this thread gets into Venezuela's and Argentina's aircraft and the Falkland Islands from a photo over 60 years old.  Yes, it's Falkland Islands to those of us not native to South America and there is nothing inferred or intended to offend in using that name.  



Ike99 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 3:43:53 AM)

quote:

JWE-Mission accomplished. I will no longer participate in these forums so long as pathetic little pissants like you are allowed to post your juvenile bile. Don’t bother to respond, because I won’t be accessing these forums any longer. I doubt many people will care much, but I just don’t give a rat’s ass anymore. Out.


I have had enough of this FVcking bullsh!t. FVck this.

Everyone want to know what this is about. This is about their little MADCOW gang of forum thugs and bullies trying to run other peoples off the forums. I took a little stroll today over there and had a look.

MADCOW is nothing more than a GQdamn ¨HATESITE¨ as hate thrives over there and they openly talk about running people off the forums.

Run me off MVtherFVcker? Try Me!

Shame on Matrix for even being connected with such a site.

Scrolling through the topics in just 10 minutes I was shocked at what I saw....and I QUOTE!!!

quote:

Abu Ghareb-I think it is possible that the pictures are faked. If that is true, then alot of people are being harmed over rumour. Not that I dont think US troops dont commit abuses, but I am fairky certain they are NOT stupid enough to leave a photographic record.


This very mutherfVcker is on this very thread calling me stupid and a troll for even asking about this picture and he said the Abu Ghareb pictures are fake!

You Fascist B@stard! And the hate doesn´t stop there!!

quote:

the Brits better realize real quick that all these guys respect is strength.
1) Never appologize
2) Never back down
Next time they provoke you, kick their fricken towel wearing, jibberish yammering, tribal thinking asses back to Iran with their tail between their legs.


And it just gets better and better over there with this gang of MADCOW TRYING TO PLY THEIR **** HERE! What do they say about my own country?!

quote:

Its election time in the Economic Basket Case of Argentina, they need to rabblerouse some. Exactly the same reason why Galtieri invaded the first time around. Typical dodgy banana republic prop up the home support stuff.


And there are many more like this about my own country and many others countries.

This is HATE, HATE, HATE and superiority complex horsesh!t

And this HATE is not spilling over onto this forum? Without a doubt it is!

Huhh! Torture!

quote:

Waterboarding is not torture. It is an extremely effective psychological form of interrogation. It's physical aspects may include forceably holding or shackling the person to a board and the administration of water such that the person believes he is drowning, but it's effects are very short lived.


Waterboarding is not torture? You dumb SOB. You forgot to mention you can easily drown someone doing it or send them into cardiac arrest not to mention the mental aspects of it.

The ignorance displayed over there baffles.

quote:

I wouldn't doubt if there is way worse done at various college hazings. Hell, back in the good old days of high school football we used to tape guys to the goalpost damn near naked, and leave 'em there in the sun with all them skeeter's for company.


Matrix Games. If these people want to have their little hate filled far right wing superiority site over there I do understand you can do nothing about it.

BUT you can, and need to get this sh!t under control and stop it from spilling over onto this site.

Now do that or ban me. One or the other but I do not have to, and will not tolerate this.






AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 4:52:40 AM)

[:)] Nice try Ike. But the one thing I learned from my try at "peace-making " on this thread , is some people like acting like rabid dogs. They are only looking for someone to bite. [:(]



mjk428 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 5:23:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

[:)] Nice try Ike. But the one thing I learned from my try at "peace-making " on this thread , is some people like acting like rabid dogs. They are only looking for someone to bite. [:(]


You're not a peacemaker, you just masquerade as such. What you are is a s**t-stirrer.



AW1Steve -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 5:27:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

[:)] Nice try Ike. But the one thing I learned from my try at "peace-making " on this thread , is some people like acting like rabid dogs. They are only looking for someone to bite. [:(]


You're not a peacemaker, you just masquerade as such. What you are is a s**t-stirrer.


[:)] Right . You can see it all over the forum. I'll let what I've said and done be judged by people who read what I've written. If you honestly feel that about me , please feel free to green button me. It's to the upper left of this box , right next to the "buddy button" Have a nice day.[:)]



mjk428 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 5:39:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

[:)] Nice try Ike. But the one thing I learned from my try at "peace-making " on this thread , is some people like acting like rabid dogs. They are only looking for someone to bite. [:(]


You're not a peacemaker, you just masquerade as such. What you are is a s**t-stirrer.


[:)] Right . You can see it all over the forum. I'll let what I've said and done be judged by people who read what I've written. If you honestly feel that about me , please feel free to green button me. It's to the upper left of this box , right next to the "buddy button" Have a nice day.[:)]


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you've been sincerely trying to "make peace", then you're just really, REALLY bad at it.

So please don't take peacemaking up professionally. Your efforts would likely end in a nuclear exchange.



Mac67 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 5:45:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

[:)] Nice try Ike. But the one thing I learned from my try at "peace-making " on this thread , is some people like acting like rabid dogs. They are only looking for someone to bite. [:(]


You're not a peacemaker, you just masquerade as such. What you are is a s**t-stirrer.


I disagree. Steve is a decent guy. At least he is prepared to talk, unlike certain other posters. You have to bear in mind that he is pretty new here and is not aware of the long standing aminosity between some people here and MCS. The only thing that you can accuse him of is being naive in thinking that he could pour oil on troubled waters. Some people here are never going to let that happen.



mjk428 -> RE: What´s this pictures history? (12/15/2007 7:35:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mac67

I disagree. Steve is a decent guy. At least he is prepared to talk, unlike certain other posters. You have to bear in mind that he is pretty new here and is not aware of the long standing aminosity between some people here and MCS. The only thing that you can accuse him of is being naive in thinking that he could pour oil on troubled waters. Some people here are never going to let that happen.



I have no problem believing Steve's a decent guy. Most everybody here is. I can even see how somebody might not realize the gigantic can of worms they were opening. So I'll accept the above at face value and give Steve the benefit of any lingering doubt. It would be really great if the nice folks here could do the same for those that happen to frequent MCS.

I still say he should not take up peacemaking as a vocation. ;)

You on the other hand...



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