RE: CleverDevils2 AAR

RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (Full Version)

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NeverMan -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (6/27/2008 9:22:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer quote: ORIGINAL: NeverMan Guy, I can guarantee Turkey will not be getting a surrender out of Russia unless he forces me to surrender. I still have a substantial army left and good leaders. THIS is exactly the attitude that hard civil disorder makes more costly. Say you were to do as you say here playing the hard rules. Then, IF Turkey should conquer all your capitals, you will NEVER surrender, because you will out of the game. There's a timing factor, of course, as gwheelock mentioned. Essentially, in an econ month, you would have to decide during diplo (i.e. BEFORE MOVEMENT) that Turkey cannot take out the rest of your capitals. If you gamble and win, you win. For one more quarter, at least. If you lose, you are out of the game. In a game where I played Turkey, and exactly this scenario played itself out. But, because we were playing the hard rules, Russia surrendured unconditionally (and giving up nasty conditions). With soft rules, I would have had to fight out the turn, only then getting an unconditional, IF I managed to get all the capitals. Are you being serious? If Turkey can occupy all of Russia's capitals then something is SERIOUSLY wrong, SERIOUSLY!! It's not an attitude, I just don't see Turkey doing it considering I still have a large amount of my army left. You and guy keep talking like I have no army, lol and Turkey is some kind of powerhouse country. It's starting to confuse me.

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (6/27/2008 10:46:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeverMan quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer quote: ORIGINAL: NeverMan Guy, I can guarantee Turkey will not be getting a surrender out of Russia unless he forces me to surrender. I still have a substantial army left and good leaders. THIS is exactly the attitude that hard civil disorder makes more costly. Say you were to do as you say here playing the hard rules. Then, IF Turkey should conquer all your capitals, you will NEVER surrender, because you will out of the game. There's a timing factor, of course, as gwheelock mentioned. Essentially, in an econ month, you would have to decide during diplo (i.e. BEFORE MOVEMENT) that Turkey cannot take out the rest of your capitals. If you gamble and win, you win. For one more quarter, at least. If you lose, you are out of the game. In a game where I played Turkey, and exactly this scenario played itself out. But, because we were playing the hard rules, Russia surrendured unconditionally (and giving up nasty conditions). With soft rules, I would have had to fight out the turn, only then getting an unconditional, IF I managed to get all the capitals. Are you being serious? If Turkey can occupy all of Russia's capitals then something is SERIOUSLY wrong, SERIOUSLY!! It's not an attitude, I just don't see Turkey doing it considering I still have a large amount of my army left. You and guy keep talking like I have no army, lol and Turkey is some kind of powerhouse country. It's starting to confuse me. Actually; the game that Jim referred to was a different one where Russia got his a** handed to him BADLY - he had lost >2< battles similar to the one you just had & Turkey WAS in a position to at least TRY to occupy all of the capitols - he DIDN'T have a "large amount of army" left. I am not saying that Turkey is a powerhouse or that you are finished. But your army is not IN Russia right now & it IS going to take you several months to haul it back home & then get it up to the front. During that time; Turkey can pretty well do whatever he wants. If he moves fast; he should be able to occupy everything south of the line from Brest-Litovsk over to Astrakhan before you can get ready (remember >I< know how much money I have been giving him & trust me it's enough to PAY for his supply for this). & after you get your army home; you still have to BEAT him... The problem with fighting the Turks is that if you lose JUST ONCE all of that cav he has will EAT your army (I speak from experience on this - remember my earlier posts about playing Austria & getting stabbed in the back by Dave while trying to fight France.)

NeverMan -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (6/27/2008 11:09:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gwheelock quote: ORIGINAL: NeverMan quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer quote: ORIGINAL: NeverMan Guy, I can guarantee Turkey will not be getting a surrender out of Russia unless he forces me to surrender. I still have a substantial army left and good leaders. THIS is exactly the attitude that hard civil disorder makes more costly. Say you were to do as you say here playing the hard rules. Then, IF Turkey should conquer all your capitals, you will NEVER surrender, because you will out of the game. There's a timing factor, of course, as gwheelock mentioned. Essentially, in an econ month, you would have to decide during diplo (i.e. BEFORE MOVEMENT) that Turkey cannot take out the rest of your capitals. If you gamble and win, you win. For one more quarter, at least. If you lose, you are out of the game. In a game where I played Turkey, and exactly this scenario played itself out. But, because we were playing the hard rules, Russia surrendured unconditionally (and giving up nasty conditions). With soft rules, I would have had to fight out the turn, only then getting an unconditional, IF I managed to get all the capitals. Are you being serious? If Turkey can occupy all of Russia's capitals then something is SERIOUSLY wrong, SERIOUSLY!! It's not an attitude, I just don't see Turkey doing it considering I still have a large amount of my army left. You and guy keep talking like I have no army, lol and Turkey is some kind of powerhouse country. It's starting to confuse me. Actually; the game that Jim referred to was a different one where Russia got his a** handed to him BADLY - he had lost >2< battles similar to the one you just had & Turkey WAS in a position to at least TRY to occupy all of the capitols - he DIDN'T have a "large amount of army" left. I am not saying that Turkey is a powerhouse or that you are finished. But your army is not IN Russia right now & it IS going to take you several months to haul it back home & then get it up to the front. During that time; Turkey can pretty well do whatever he wants. If he moves fast; he should be able to occupy everything south of the line from Brest-Litovsk over to Astrakhan before you can get ready (remember >I< know how much money I have been giving him & trust me it's enough to PAY for his supply for this). & after you get your army home; you still have to BEAT him... The problem with fighting the Turks is that if you lose JUST ONCE all of that cav he has will EAT your army (I speak from experience on this - remember my earlier posts about playing Austria & getting stabbed in the back by Dave while trying to fight France.) Well, I guess we will have to let all this play out.

AGT4533 -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (6/28/2008 9:28:51 PM)
Playing Austria, i consider myself an experienced player albeit a bit rusty; been 10 years since I've played. I'll concede the last battle was imprudent however the outcome isn't disasterous. Austria ends the war with its guard and cav intact, +$100 in its treasury, and loss of just one province. The war had to end. Continuing delaying tactics wouldn't change the status quo, namely French concentration against Austria while ignoring Russia. In the four months of the war the Russian Northern Army is further East from where it started the war in April. From my perspective that was disheartening. Secondly, July was the last turn Austria would have the initiative when France re-established the threat of a double turn by choosing to move last. Before suing for peace I thought it my duty to take down as many Franch factors as possible. Home Nation battle casualties in the course of the war: France 44i, 21m,2g and Austria 82i, 10m, 2c (excluding Insurrection Corps casualties since they resurrect annually). Casualties were even up until the last month. Don't know if France would have accepted a conditional peace if Austria hadn't been pummeled the last month. Couple lessons learned: even if it is only a single British corp, it is needed in the Austrian stack. It wouldn't have been too difficult to arrange in an Austrian port. Secondly, I think I sacrificed too many political points by using single corp stacks to interdict French movement and supply. Need to have been more judicious when doing that because politically Austria has been a basketcase the last two quarters. Now the war with France is over, Austria can turn its attention to the Russian/Turkey conflict - neither of whom are allied to Austria - and figure out how to begin collecting some political points.

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (6/29/2008 10:40:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeverMan Are you being serious? If Turkey can occupy all of Russia's capitals then something is SERIOUSLY wrong, SERIOUSLY!! It's not an attitude, I just don't see Turkey doing it considering I still have a large amount of my army left. You and guy keep talking like I have no army, lol and Turkey is some kind of powerhouse country. It's starting to confuse me. Oh, no, I'm not referring to you specifically or this game. I'm pointing out how and why the hard civil disorder rules change play. That's all. In your current position, I agree with you. But, your statement implied never, so it seemed like a good example to use. If you were to play, say, another year, and Turkey kept hammering you and not losing (which is close to what happened with me that time), eventually you would have to surrender. If playing the soft rules, you can wait until he actually takes all of your capitals. You can also hope to get help from your allies, say, in St. Petersburg. But, if we were playing the hard rules, then you would have to consider capitulating earlier when Turkey got close, just to keep from being put out of the game. So, the general effect of hard rules is to have harsher surrenders overall.

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (6/29/2008 10:42:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeverMan Well, I guess we will have to let all this play out. I agree. All my example was intended to do was show what we were talking about earlier (in another thread, I think).

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/13/2008 2:38:46 AM)
I just noticed that we have not been updating this AAR promptly. Here is the rundown since the last items. After the battle detailed in posts 232-234; Austria negotiated a CONDITIONAL surrender with France & Spain. France gets 24 months & Bohemia; Spain gets money & Royal marrage & will also get Venice (lost by Austria due to being in Fiasco zone). This negotiation occured at the end of July 1806 BETWEEN the Austrian & French (moving last) turns. Because of this; France moves Nappy's main army to Thuringia in preparation to fight the Russians (on his July turn). During his July turn; A British controlled Swedish corp lands in Amsterdam & retreats the French controlled Holland corp. Due to a program bug (auto-foraging a corp with >0< movement is counted as "using movement" and thus preventing a seige attempt) Britian is unable to seige the Amsterdam city garrison. Britian also has had a corp in Stettin & conquors French controlled Pommeramia. Because of the program bug France offers to allow the British corp to leave Holland and walk home via the channel crossing. France makes a mistake in the August 1806 reinforcement phase & forgets to change his move orders from LAST to FIRST (intending to attack the Russian Danish corp in Mecklenberg). Britain appearently changes his mind about the deal to leave Amsterdam & lands another British corp in Amsterdam and a 1-factor blocking corp in Breda. Britain makes a successful breakin to Amsterdam & wins the seige; but a program bug does not cause the Fleet to evac. Britain also moves the corp in Stettin to Berlin via Wittenberg while leaving 1 I in Stettin; 1I on a depot in Stettin and dropping 1 I into unoccupied Wittenberg. Russia moves his army to "Area 150" (Pommeramia area west of Danzig) France splits Nappy's army. Napoleon; the Guard corp with 18G 3C & the Saxon corp with 2 Saxons attack & beseige Wittenberg. Breakin is successful. Casulties are 1 British I; no French losses. French 4th corp (14, 1M, 3C) attack 1 Danish I in Mecklenberg. Breakin is successful Casulties are 1 Danish I; no French losses. French 2nd corp with Murat (18I, 1M, 3C) attack British Depot garrison in Stettin. Casulties are 1 British I; no French losses. Breakin is prevented due to use of movement for forage. French 5th corp (13I 1M, 3C), Holland corp (3I 1C) with Massena attack the British blocking corp in Breda. Casulties are 1 British I; no French losses. French 11th corp (11I, 1C), Artillery corp (11A) with Devout do an end-run around the British blocking corp & are joined by the 1st corp (25I 3C) and the 3rd corp (20I 3C) from Nappy's army attack the Swedish/British combination in Amsterdam. Breakin is successful. Casulties are 8 Swedish I, 2 Swedish C, 6 British I (corp was not full); 3 French I. British were eliminated during the 2nd round of combat. Sept 1806 Spain DOWs Venice; Britian gets control. [image]local://upfiles/27656/E2212FA25D0C45058C277A135D8B3CA6.jpg[/image]

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/13/2008 4:18:27 AM)
Just one comment: GB never actually agreed to that deal. I listened to the offer, but never commited. Also, IF the game does what it says it should in the rules (which I doubt), the fleet in Amsterdam will still have to evacuate before his naval phase. We're both guessing that it will just happily sit there. 19 British boys wasted because of yet another bug. Why don't the FRENCH ever see bugs that kill HIS troops?

Soapy Frog -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/13/2008 5:40:52 PM)
Wow a conditional for Austria that is uncommon generous! And I see Russia is next on the menu... it's like a three course meal where you saved some extra room for dessert!

NeverMan -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/13/2008 6:18:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog Wow a conditional for Austria that is uncommon generous! And I see Russia is next on the menu... it's like a three course meal where you saved some extra room for dessert! LOL. I guess you see something I don't. We'll see.

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/13/2008 6:54:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog Wow a conditional for Austria that is uncommon generous! ...! Actually, while I can't know this for sure, I suspect it was because the Spanish went to war with him against Austria, so it was important to gwheelock to honor that alliance and make sure Spain also got out of the war. While gwheelock is one of the most ruthless players you will ever play against (not to mention one of the best gamers, period), he keeps deals he makes. Very honorable. In this game (EiA, not just CleverDevils), it is important playing France to be ruthless. Bloodthirsty, even. But, even France needs buddies. So, that combination of player traits makes him a formidable force in this game.

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/14/2008 2:11:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer quote: ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog Wow a conditional for Austria that is uncommon generous! ...! Actually, while I can't know this for sure, I suspect it was because the Spanish went to war with him against Austria, so it was important to gwheelock to honor that alliance and make sure Spain also got out of the war. While gwheelock is one of the most ruthless players you will ever play against (not to mention one of the best gamers, period), he keeps deals he makes. Very honorable. In this game (EiA, not just CleverDevils), it is important playing France to be ruthless. Bloodthirsty, even. But, even France needs buddies. So, that combination of player traits makes him a formidable force in this game. Getting Spain out of the war (with some profit to him) was certainly a big part of my thinking. He entered the war at my request & didn't manage to win any significant amount of pp's so I wanted to get him some territory & etc. for his time. (IMHO if you do not consider your allies in situations like this; you will soon have - and deserve - none). Even France needs allies. France can beat ANYone - he can't beat EVERYone (at least not at the same time). Another factor was that I am going to need more pp's in 18 months or so & if I leave the Austrians with the nucleus of an army; he might be feeling "feisty" enough by then to provide them. And - since I would be maxing out (now) with just a conditional - I didn't need more at this time.

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/14/2008 2:23:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer Just one comment: GB never actually agreed to that deal. I listened to the offer, but never commited. Also, IF the game does what it says it should in the rules (which I doubt), the fleet in Amsterdam will still have to evacuate before his naval phase. We're both guessing that it will just happily sit there. 19 British boys wasted because of yet another bug. Why don't the FRENCH ever see bugs that kill HIS troops? This is true. I thought we had a deal; but we never actually finalized it. As an update (France's Sept 1806 Naval phase) - the Amsterdam fleet did NOT automatically evac; so I did a manual sortie attempt. The results are that Holland lost 9 heavys & Britian lost 1. (This is as close as I can come to correcting for the problem within the current game limits). I don't see bugs that kill French troops because I don't put them out where they can be killed. The non-evac bug didn't kill your troops ... they would have died anyway - I did the strike-back in the same month/land phase that you landed in & you wouldn't have been able to escape. (& yes some of the bugs are in your favor too - being able to land, break-in, kill the fleet and then have YOUR fleet automatically moved from the blockade box to the city so that you can leave again in the next naval phase instead of having to take a turn to move your fleet from the blockade box to the port is a bug that FAVORS Britain)

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/14/2008 4:46:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gwheelock This is true. I thought we had a deal; but we never actually finalized it. The way I figured it, you would trade 13 ships for 20 British troops any day of the week. What I did NOT figure was that you would get the 20 for nothing (until honor stepped up to the plate). I'm glad it worked out that way, though. We never would have known about the naval bug if it hadn't shaken out this way. And, I'm harboring no illusions about winning this game anyhow.

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/14/2008 4:48:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gwheelock (& yes some of the bugs are in your favor too - being able to land, break-in, kill the fleet and then have YOUR fleet automatically moved from the blockade box to the city so that you can leave again in the next naval phase instead of having to take a turn to move your fleet from the blockade box to the port is a bug that FAVORS Britain) Good point. By the way, if you had not broken in, I was going to leave them in Amsterdam for an extra month for that very reason. I shouldn't have used it the first time around, either, but hadn't thought of this option then.

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 5:45:29 AM)
Ok; here are some results from Sept 1806. France attempts breakin in Hamberg - unsuccessful. France attempts breakin in Stetting - successful France conquors Mecklenberg from Russia. [image]local://upfiles/27656/AF8EC40FB02443F4AACD7D6AF8BF94C9.jpg[/image]

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 5:46:44 AM)
Here are the political rankings as of Sept 1806 [image]local://upfiles/27656/0219AEDD68F04DD8A881860B583D62B0.jpg[/image]

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 5:48:23 AM)
And here are the vp status [image]local://upfiles/27656/A51E1F35A18140E4AA23DA9AABE015E2.jpg[/image]

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 7:13:40 AM)
I forgot to make the attempt to cede that property to the Prussians. I would hope that the game wouldn't allow me to (since there are Frenchies present), but I wanted to see how far it would let me go. Does anybody know if the game properly handles blocking ceding attempts while an enemy roosts in the property?

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 7:16:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog Wow a conditional for Austria that is uncommon generous! And I see Russia is next on the menu... it's like a three course meal where you saved some extra room for dessert! Actually, Russia most likely is NOT on the menu for France, because she can't get there. Except for those three minors. Of course, this assumes someone prevents France from running across those islands to Copenhagen. :)

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 5:12:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer quote: ORIGINAL: Soapy Frog Wow a conditional for Austria that is uncommon generous! And I see Russia is next on the menu... it's like a three course meal where you saved some extra room for dessert! Actually, Russia most likely is NOT on the menu for France, because she can't get there. Except for those three minors. Of course, this assumes someone prevents France from running across those islands to Copenhagen. :) "Can't get there"??? This also assumes that someone prevents me from taking "access" & polish territories from Prussia as well. We just finished the "3rd coalition" ... its now time for the "4th" ... & yes I am running late on my wars - but I am catching up ... the 3rd coalition wars were 1 year late; the 4th coalition wars will only be 6 months late & I hope to be completely caught up by the 5th (at least the danube campaine portion - I plan to skip the peninsular part of that war completely)

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 7:02:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gwheelock "Can't get there"??? This also assumes that someone prevents me from taking "access" & polish territories from Prussia as well. Ahhh, but that wouldn't make Russia NEXT, would it? PRUSSIA would be next, follow by Russia.

NeverMan -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 7:18:25 PM)
You guys are really getting ahead of yourselves. Well, put me on the list and come and get some.

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/15/2008 7:21:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer quote: ORIGINAL: gwheelock "Can't get there"??? This also assumes that someone prevents me from taking "access" & polish territories from Prussia as well. Ahhh, but that wouldn't make Russia NEXT, would it? PRUSSIA would be next, follow by Russia. Depends on how you define "next" now doesn't it. If you define it by the START of the war; then Russia is indeed "next" since that war has officially started & the Prussian one has not. It's just that there may be intervening French-Prussian battles between the conquest of the Russian minors near Denmark and the conclusion. (Maybe I can get the Russian player to come & fight up in "Area769" - thats about as close to Tilsit as I can figure ... If not; well I figure that I have enough time to chase him to Moscow if need be.)

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/16/2008 6:19:27 PM)
I guess you are right; there could be other ways of defining "next". I was thinking chronologically.

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/24/2008 6:34:31 AM)
Ok; more updates : October : 1806 France DOWs Holstein (unclaimed since lost by Russia) , Prussia gets control & France makes successful breakin. Casulties are 2 Holstein I; no French I Edit: Opps - just remembered - this was Sept; not Oct Spain DOWs Venice; Britain gets control France makes unsuccessful breakin attempts on Hamberg & Straslund France conquors Pommeramia from Britain. November : 1806 Britain DOWs uncontrolled Dalmatia; France gets control & does not place Dalmatia I to prevent Britain from gaining an extra pp from winning a fletched city combat. Straslund garrison fails forage & is eliminated (1 Danish I). France makes successful breakin in Hamberg. Casulties 2 Russian M; no French losses France conquors Holstein from Prussia. Spain makes successful breakin in Venice & eliminates the Venice garrison (during NAVAL combat phase [sm=00000506.gif][sm=terms.gif]) [image]local://upfiles/27656/513440174F184280A3C27A9758F91B1B.jpg[/image]

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/24/2008 8:43:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gwheelock Britain DOWs uncontrolled Dalmatia; France gets control & does not place Dalmatia I to prevent Britain from gaining an extra pp from winning a fletched city combat. Interesting strategy.

gwheelock -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/24/2008 9:15:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jimmer quote: ORIGINAL: gwheelock Britain DOWs uncontrolled Dalmatia; France gets control & does not place Dalmatia I to prevent Britain from gaining an extra pp from winning a fletched city combat. Interesting strategy. Besides; I forgot to place them & clicked thru the end-of-turn too quick. (But listing it as part of a strategy ploy sounds better then saying I screwed up)

Jimmer -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/25/2008 4:29:31 PM)
I always suspected Napoleon's victories were more luck than sense ....

fatfloyd -> RE: CleverDevils2 AAR (7/28/2008 8:15:41 PM)
I believe if you set the garrison's orders to surrender on breach you can stop the PP gain for the attacker and make him roll to take the city.

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